Advice on playing flacs on an 'entry level' hi-fi. Options

[ruminalae]

I would like to get some advice on playing flacs on my hi-fi at a comparable quality to cds.

My hi-fi cost about AUD1750 10 years ago (approx USD1050 at the time). As I understand it, it was a decent 'entry level' system.
speakers B&W DM602 - amplifier Rotel RA-931 - cd player Rotel RCD-930AX

operating system : Debian Lenny amd64
current sound card : Soundblaster Audigy 2 Value connected to aux on my amplifier

Notes
* Given that my hi-fi is 10 years old, replacement due to failure is possible. If so I would be looking to get better components than I have currently.
* I don't have any intention of being involved in music production.
* Currently I have no interest in surround sound.
* While I don't understand audiophile lexicon, I can confidently say music from the computer sounds 'horrible' compared to the cd player.

What sound cards would give similar audio quality to my current cd player, and what would be the 'next step' up?
Reading past posts, it seems there are alternative solutions, such as an external DAC. Should I look into one of those instead, if so could you point me in the right direction?
On a side note, which would you replace first as an upgrade, the speakers or the amplifier?

Thanks for your help.

[pdq]

If the sound from your computer truly sounds "horrible" then this is not a function of whether your sound card is top quality or just OK. Something in your setup is broken, and you need to fix it before you start thinking about upgrading.

As far as amplifier vs. speakers, 99% of what you hear is due to the speakers, and only 1% is due to the amplifier, unless, of course, the amplifier doesn't put out enough watts, which in this day and age is highly unlikely. Upgrade your speakers and leave the amplifier alone.

[ruminalae]

If the sound from your computer truly sounds "horrible" then this is not a function of whether your sound card is top quality or just OK. Something in your setup is broken, and you need to fix it before you start thinking about upgrading.

Let me clarify, horrible as in much poorer quality than the cd player, but of a standard I would expect for the hardware. I don't believe anything is broken, and it is a marked improvement over various onboard sound I have used in the past.

[Slipstreem]

This may sound like a silly question, but are you certain that you're running the sound card in plain stereo? Unless you're accidentally using some form of signal processing, I can't imagine why it should sound significantly worse than a CD player.

Cheers, Slipstreem.

[[JAZ]]

Your question is difficult to answer, because your information is scarce.

First, i've looked at the hardware. The amplifier and the speakers look fine, (As in having an adequate power and design).
About the soundcard.... I see you say you use a Linux operating system. This (actually, the drivers that come with it) can be the problem. Generally, soundblaster cards are well supported, but that is mostly in soundblaster 16 compatibility mode. (Or was the case before). What can happen is that the soundcard is playing at 48Khz, and needs to resample 44Khz (the .flac files).
Also, beware about the volume in Linux. You rarely would want to put the volume at max, since it tends to clip with many soundcards.

Another thing to check, as others have suggested, is that you have the soundcard configured as 2Channel speakers (This may or may not work, but an option should be present in the alsa mixer), and the cable connected to the green connector.
At last, deactivate as many things as you can in the alsa mixer. Many times there are reverbs and things alike enabled.

Next, you say you connect the soundcard to the AUX port. Is it really the AUX port? I mean, if you connect it to the Phone port it could sound horrible.

Also, related to this, is the sound of the CD player louder than the one out of the soundcard? (I assume your CD player outputs at professional level, and not at consumer level).
You could be experiencing just a level difference.

It is really difficult to tell what you're hearing with just the definition you gave us. Could you record the output of the amplifier? (connect the tape output of the amplifier to the ... mm.. i think the blue connector, but first check that it says line in) and record with audacity.

This post has been edited by [JAZ]: Aug 24 2008, 15:15

[ruminalae]

Thank you for all your responses, I have a number of things to look into.

My expectations for the card were not high since it was only a cheapie. It seems it should be capable of matching the audio quality of my cd player. Looks like I might save some money.

The sound card is connected from the green to the aux on the amp.
Alsamixer doesn't show a 2 Channel Speaker option. I will have to look into this further.

I have set the volume for master, pcm, and front to 70% and muted all others in playback. (previously master 50, pcm 100, front 100, and various others unmuted). I haven't noticed this making a difference.
I don't know what professional or consumer volume levels are. I prefer music quieter than most. When playing cds, the amp volume is ~5%. To play from the computer at this level, master, pcm, front need to all be 100%. When playing from the computer with these at 70%, the amp is about 20%. If this hasn't answered your question I will look into it further.

I have done some retesting of flac vs cd since it is probably over 12 months since I last did any testing, and I wasn't using flacs I had ripped myself. The difference is not as dramatic as it was previously. I still think there is a small difference. I am reluctant to try describing it due to the probability of confusion. As JAZ suggested recording from the amp might be a good idea. Are there recommended flacs without copyright issues? I don't have the cable to go from tape out to the sound card, but I can isolate the speakers and go from headphone out to the soundcard if that is ok?

I need to investigate the 44 and 48kHz issue since that means nothing to me. I have noticed some players are better than others, perhaps this is related. My current player of preference is Potamus.

Again thank you for your help, I have more research to do tonight.

[honestguv]

My expectations for the card were not high since it was only a cheapie. It seems it should be capable of matching the audio quality of my cd player.

Although you have paid sufficient money for a mass produced sound card to be audibly neutral there is no guarantee that this will be the case. The computer industry designs and implements cards very quickly because they have a short shelf life. The home audio press takes no interest in technical performance because of the way it is funded and the computer press takes only a cursory interest in sound. Neither of these are going to hold the manufacturer of a less than competently implemented sound card to account.

If you lack the experience or the time to sort out whether a cheap sound card works well enough then you may be wise to pay more and buy from a manufacturer that will be held to account by experienced and knowledgeable customers. This means professional customers in the sound industry and not audiophiles. Echo is an example of such a company but there are others (I am not particularly recommending Echo). The basic stereo sound card costs $200 but one can have a high confidence it will perform to specification. But it offers essentially the same functionality (external firewire 2 channels) as a Behringer at $80. Perhaps the Behringer will perform to specification but one cannot have the same degree of confidence because the customers for the Behringer are buying on price and will not hold the manufacturer to account in the same way as Echo. There are always customers for the cheapest products particularly when out of specification products are not punished by receiving bad press.

[[JAZ]]

Ok, from your post, the connection is fine, and the volume levels are Ok. You can keep them as you had them (50, 100, 100) if you preffer it.
About the 2channel configuration, it may not be there (depends on the soundcard driver). Since you said that all at 100% matches the CD player level, that's what i expected.

So now coming to your conclusion, you've changed from "horrible" to "small difference". Well, at least we're progressing

To try to record the output, use any music you feel confident of finding a difference, but post samples of at much 30 seconds. Rip any CD you have, (so that we have the same source) and try.

About the cabling... have you checked if there are more cables in your soundcard box? Sometimes they ship it with the three cables (for 5.1). If not, buying one at your nearest shop shouldn't cost you more than a few bucks. (Yes, it will be enough).

Playing from the headphone out adds two problems: One, about level (the amplifier amplifies the signal, so you'll have to reduce the volume). Also, the impedance for headphones is quite different than the impedance of a line in, which in turn means that doesn't match what it expects, so it won't sound as good as it could (although this may be of less concern than the previous problem).

Last, i suggest you to do this, with the cables you have:

When recording the CD player, take off the soundcard cable and connect it from tape record to soundcard line in.

When recording the soundcard, connect the line out (green) to line in (blue). You could do this with the cable you wanted to connect to the headphone out.

[CSMR]

I have set the volume for master, pcm, and front to 70% and muted all others in playback. (previously master 50, pcm 100, front 100, and various others unmuted). I haven't noticed this making a difference.

You should always set volume to 100% and control in your integrated amp. (Especially important in XP.) And mute all but one thing, normal audio stereo out, whatever it is called. (Although if you use XP you should make sure to bypass this and use ASIO, but your current sound card may not support this.)
You can get a USB soundcard, e.g. E-MU 0202 USB. That will work very well in XP or Vista. (In XP make sure to use ASIO output from your application or else you may lose one or two bits resolution. XP's sound mixer is notorious.)

This post has been edited by CSMR: Aug 26 2008, 00:36

[Soap]

I have set the volume for master, pcm, and front to 70% and muted all others in playback. (previously master 50, pcm 100, front 100, and various others unmuted). I haven't noticed this making a difference.

You should always set volume to 100% and control in your integrated amp. (Especially important in XP.)

He is running Linux:

Also, beware about the volume in Linux. You rarely would want to put the volume at max, since it tends to clip with many soundcards.

I can confirm that every sound card I have used in Linux clips @ the 100% volume level.
At this point in time it is better that we eliminate clipping as a source of the 'horrible' nature of his sound.
The diminished SNR of having the level too low is not ideal, but few would describe it as 'horrible'.

This post has been edited by Soap: Aug 26 2008, 00:45

[2Bdecided]

Many people don't use their PC for this purpose...

http://www.slimdevices.com/

http://www.sonos.com/

Cheers,
David.

[ruminalae]

I don't think it is worth worrying about recording the sound card output since there isn't a dramatic difference to the cd player. I am not as keen as I was to replace the card, however I'll still look into 'professional' cards in due course. Thank you for your help.

[jce]

My rig

Notebook running Foobar (Asio Drivers) --> Firewire --> External Sound Card (Edirol FA66) --> Toslink --> DAC (Behringer Ultracurve) --> Amp (NAD C340) --> Speakers (Phonar Veritas P5)

Not missing my cd-player at all.

Cheers

Jorge

[hlloyge]

Audigy 2 sound cards, when installed on Windows, has CMSS processing enabled by default. It can be disabled only from console installed with drivres. I don't know how is it on Linux.