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Mastering Vinyl, Myths, questions, discussion
Axon
post Sep 9 2008, 02:56
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This is a split of a discussion Hancoque and I had, which desperately needs to be elaborated on.

First of all, I've dumped my thoughts on the matter into the Wiki: http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?ti...Vinyl_Mastering. Please comment on it.

A couple of the points there are explicitly worth starting this topic off:
  • There is no consistent, unambiguous way to identify the provenance of a vinyl master. Most methods - but most of all, the zoomed-out waveform plot - are inaccurate in one way or another. Visual examination of clipped samples is fairly telling, but not applicable or effective in all cases. How can a vinyl master be accurately observed as being the same or different as a CD master?
  • Even if a difference exists, whether or not it is audible is another question entirely. IIRC, brickwall limiting of 3-4db, correctly applied, may not be audible. If so, Hancoque's Slayer waveforms might not mean anything, because his peaks are all within 4db of the CD peaks. What audibility thresholds exist for clipped signals?
That said, I may be eating a hearty dinner of crow tonight, as I just examined one of the records I thought was of the same master as the CD (Battles - Mirrored), and I was able to observe pretty strong differences in clipping between the vinyl and CD versions. I'll reply later with some visual examples.
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analog scott
post Jun 29 2010, 10:20
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QUOTE (cliveb @ Jun 29 2010, 08:39) *
QUOTE (analog scott @ Jun 29 2010, 08:10) *
If it is a "very pervasive myth" as you claim we should find it spewed all over the place in audio forums, no? So once again I would like to see this pervasive myth expressed somewhere other than this thread and the wiki article by someone who actually believes it if I'm going to buy into your claims of pervasiveness.

I have posted comments in the past which could be construed as supporting this myth. The gist of my argument is this:

*IF* you cut a vinyl LP from a hypercompressed master, *THEN* you will either get very little playing time per side *OR* you have to seriously limit the levels which compromises the (already woeful) S/N ratio available from vinyl.

On reflection, it occurs to me that when the source material is hypercompressed there is little need for any kind of decent S/N ratio. So perhaps turning down the levels to achieve sensible playing time isn't the big problem I had previously believed it to be.


1. The real issue is there comes a certain point with hypercompression of certain signals where the cutting head physically can't cut the laquer from the same signal without burning out.
2. While your comments are novel and interesting on a theoretical basis they really are non issues in the world of vinyl since no one is actually doing what you are talking about there.
3. The myth on wiki states "vinyl records must have intrinsically different masterings than CDs of the same material."
There is a pretty substantial nonsequitor between your comments and the aleged myth.
4. Even if there was some irrational connection between your comments and the aleged myth it would again depend on some unstated inherent line of reasoning of others since clearly you are not pushing the aleged myth that "vinyl records must have intrinsically different masterings than CDs of the same material" based on your comments.

If the myth as stated in the Wiki article is pervasive it ought to be called out. But if it is pervasive it ought to be easly cited as described in the article in the form of claims by people who actually believe it.
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cliveb
post Jun 29 2010, 11:55
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QUOTE (analog scott @ Jun 29 2010, 10:20) *
2. While your comments are novel and interesting on a theoretical basis they really are non issues in the world of vinyl since no one is actually doing what you are talking about there.

Not sure I understand what you're getting at. Are you saying that my comment is not relevant because in the real world nobody actually cuts vinyl LPs from the same hypercompressed master as the CD? The impression I get from what others have said is that this is precisely what seems to be going on in some cases. If that isn't what you're saying, can you try and rephrase?
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Posts in this topic
- Axon   Mastering Vinyl   Sep 9 2008, 02:56
- - Hancoque   I have to admit: You are right. The vinyl version ...   Sep 9 2008, 21:49
|- - Glenn Gundlach   QUOTE (Hancoque @ Sep 9 2008, 12:49) I ha...   Sep 10 2008, 05:46
- - Axon   Bump for massive schadenfreude at Gearslutz, where...   Jun 22 2010, 01:13
- - analog scott   QUOTE (Axon @ Sep 9 2008, 02:56) This is ...   Jun 22 2010, 13:22
- - analog scott   "There's this idea floating around that v...   Jun 22 2010, 13:27
- - 2Bdecided   Axon, The wiki page says "The CD and vinyl m...   Jun 23 2010, 12:19
- - analog scott   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jun 23 2010, 12:19) Ax...   Jun 23 2010, 23:12
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (analog scott @ Jun 23 2010, 18:12)...   Jun 26 2010, 10:43
- - 2Bdecided   Please read the page we're discussing. This de...   Jun 27 2010, 00:20
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jun 26 2010, 19:20) Pl...   Jun 27 2010, 10:25
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jun 27 2010, 10...   Jun 28 2010, 11:05
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jun 28 2010, 06:05) QU...   Jun 28 2010, 11:25
- - analog scott   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jun 26 2010, 11...   Jun 27 2010, 09:13
- - Axon   QUOTE (analog scott @ Jun 22 2010, 07:27)...   Jun 28 2010, 20:07
|- - analog scott   QUOTE (Axon @ Jun 28 2010, 21:07) QUOTE (...   Jun 29 2010, 08:10
||- - cliveb   QUOTE (analog scott @ Jun 29 2010, 08:10)...   Jun 29 2010, 08:39
||- - doctorcilantro   QUOTE (analog scott @ Jun 29 2010, 08:10)...   Sep 2 2010, 05:32
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Axon @ Jun 28 2010, 15:07) QUOTE (...   Jun 30 2010, 11:48
- - analog scott   QUOTE (cliveb @ Jun 29 2010, 08:39) QUOTE...   Jun 29 2010, 10:20
|- - cliveb   QUOTE (analog scott @ Jun 29 2010, 10:20)...   Jun 29 2010, 11:55
- - analog scott   Since you are looking for comments and the thread ...   Jun 29 2010, 10:51
- - 2Bdecided   I think it's a waste of time to argue that thi...   Jun 29 2010, 10:51
- - analog scott   >> How do you know if a vinyl master is audi...   Jun 29 2010, 11:16
- - analog scott   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jun 29 2010, 11:51) I ...   Jun 29 2010, 11:25
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (analog scott @ Jun 29 2010, 11:25)...   Jun 29 2010, 13:20
- - analog scott   QUOTE (cliveb @ Jun 29 2010, 12:55) QUOTE...   Jun 29 2010, 14:06
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (analog scott @ Jun 29 2010, 09:06)...   Jun 30 2010, 14:06
- - analog scott   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jun 29 2010, 14:20) QU...   Jun 29 2010, 14:10
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (analog scott @ Jun 29 2010, 14:10)...   Jun 29 2010, 14:57
- - analog scott   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jun 29 2010, 15:57) QU...   Jun 29 2010, 18:06
- - krabapple   Wow, can this get MORE silly? I think most of u...   Jun 30 2010, 06:56
|- - botface   QUOTE (krabapple @ Jun 30 2010, 06:56) Wh...   Jun 30 2010, 08:12
- - MichaelW   I was in my local, rather good, secondhand record ...   Jun 30 2010, 07:59
- - analog scott   QUOTE (krabapple @ Jun 30 2010, 07:56) Wo...   Jun 30 2010, 09:01
|- - greynol   QUOTE (analog scott @ Jun 30 2010, 01:01)...   Jul 1 2010, 01:11
- - greynol   I think all he's trying to say is that it...   Jul 1 2010, 00:57
|- - Axon   QUOTE (greynol @ Jun 30 2010, 18:57) I th...   Jul 1 2010, 02:54
||- - greynol   QUOTE (Axon @ Jun 30 2010, 18:54) PREFERE...   Jul 1 2010, 04:06
|- - MichaelW   QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 1 2010, 11:57) I thi...   Jul 1 2010, 05:37
- - Axon   Oh for f*cks sake people. I don't mind pedantr...   Jul 1 2010, 02:18
|- - cliveb   QUOTE (Axon @ Jul 1 2010, 02:18) OK - doe...   Jul 1 2010, 08:38
|- - 2Bdecided   OT-ish, but... QUOTE (Axon @ Jul 1 2010, 02...   Jul 1 2010, 09:37
|- - googlebot   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jul 1 2010, 10:37) ......   Jul 1 2010, 11:14
||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (googlebot @ Jul 1 2010, 11:14) * I...   Jul 1 2010, 17:08
|- - botface   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jul 1 2010, 09:37) OT-...   Jul 1 2010, 11:28
- - Axon   Scott, all flaming aside, I would like to thank yo...   Jul 1 2010, 02:43
|- - analog scott   QUOTE (Axon @ Jul 1 2010, 03:43) Scott, a...   Jul 8 2010, 20:14
- - analog scott   QUOTE (Axon @ Jul 1 2010, 03:43) Scott, a...   Jul 1 2010, 14:21
- - analog scott   QUOTE (MichaelW @ Jul 1 2010, 06:37) QUOT...   Jul 1 2010, 14:40
- - analog scott   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jul 1 2010, 10:37) OT-...   Jul 1 2010, 14:55
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (analog scott @ Jul 1 2010, 09:55) ...   Jul 2 2010, 13:13
- - splice   Article in the NY Times about Tom Petty's ...   Jul 2 2010, 01:24
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (splice @ Jul 1 2010, 20:24) Articl...   Jul 2 2010, 13:55
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (splice @ Jul 2 2010, 01:24) Articl...   Jul 7 2010, 11:17
- - analog scott   For this title a "compressed" CD version...   Jul 5 2010, 16:28
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   Read what I said - my question what about producti...   Jul 6 2010, 20:26
- - analog scott   I read what you said Arny. Not sure how mastering ...   Jul 7 2010, 01:46
- - usernaim   I think it's important to keep the timeline of...   Jul 7 2010, 13:14
- - botface   Nice idea usernaim but trying to generalise like t...   Jul 7 2010, 15:19
|- - splice   QUOTE (botface @ Jul 7 2010, 06:19) Also,...   Jul 7 2010, 22:24
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (splice @ Jul 7 2010, 17:24) Cuttin...   Jul 8 2010, 00:43
|- - botface   QUOTE (splice @ Jul 7 2010, 22:24) QUOTE ...   Jul 8 2010, 09:32
|- - splice   QUOTE (botface @ Jul 8 2010, 00:32) Well,...   Jul 8 2010, 23:30
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (splice @ Jul 8 2010, 18:30) Step 1...   Jul 9 2010, 01:23
|- - analog scott   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jul 9 2010, 02...   Jul 9 2010, 15:39
|- - greynol   QUOTE (analog scott @ Jul 9 2010, 07:39) ...   Jul 9 2010, 18:55
|- - analog scott   QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 9 2010, 18:55) QUOTE...   Jul 9 2010, 19:40
|- - greynol   QUOTE (analog scott @ Jul 9 2010, 11:40) ...   Jul 9 2010, 19:47
|- - analog scott   QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 9 2010, 19:47) QUOTE...   Jul 12 2010, 22:03
- - analog scott   QUOTE (botface @ Jul 7 2010, 16:19) Nice ...   Jul 7 2010, 15:44
- - greynol   You brought these papers up in a direct response t...   Jul 12 2010, 21:24
- - Axon   ..... I probably should be reading this thread, sh...   Jul 14 2010, 00:32
- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Axon @ Jul 13 2010, 19:32) ..... I...   Jul 15 2010, 13:59


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