How Good Can Vinyl Sound?, Anyone got some sample clips? Options

[sshd]

I do not own a turntable and have never heard the "great vinyl sound" coming from a good turntable handled correctly. I am however sligltly interested in purchasing one, as there are some interesting albums out there unavailable on CD.

Recently I found a small clip on the net: A lossless needledrop of Santana's debut album on the MFSL label. Since I own the CD on same label I had something to compare with: I was very disappointed with the needle drop. There were no pops or clicks, but the sound was dead.

Can anyone provide some sample clips of very good needle drops?

[krabapple]

First, all digital ends up as 'analog sound' when it comes out of the DAC and ultimately your loudspeakers/earbuds/headphones

Second, your objection presumes that a good digitizing of an LP somehow changes the sound. Why would you think that?

[C.R.Helmrich]

First, all digital ends up as 'analog sound' when it comes out of the DAC and ultimately your loudspeakers/earbuds/headphones

Second, your objection presumes that a good digitizing of an LP somehow changes the sound. Why would you think that?

I've recorded a song from an 80's LP on my PC in 24bit/96kHz once and noticed that the bandwidth extended to around 30 kHz (true, the roll-off started at 15 kHz or so, but still, it reached till 30). So to be fair, one should record at 16bit/96kHz to get a "good digitizing of an LP", I think. Correct me if I'm wrong, but all above links offer only 16bit/44kHz samples. One FLACs was even processed with LossyWav!

Chris

[Arnold B. Kruege...]

I've recorded a song from an 80's LP on my PC in 24bit/96kHz once and noticed that the bandwidth extended to around 30 kHz (true, the roll-off started at 15 kHz or so, but still, it reached till 30)

There's a very fair question to ask about LP tanscriptions whose spectral analysis shows content > 20 KHz:

Is it music or is it distortion?

The LP format does have a lot of inherent nonlinear distoriton at high frequencies due to geometric mismatch between the path of the sharp, chisel-shaped cutter, and the round or elliptical stylus.

Also, there is considerable dynamic deformation of the groove itself. which mostly springs back shortly after playing. Point being, the stylus deforms the groove in a nonlinear way while its being played.

And of course there's the other issue about which so much relevant evidence has been collected that there is hardly a controversy over it any more. Can we hear the removal of audio > 22 Khz? The answer is generally no, not at all.

[C.R.Helmrich]

Is it music or is it distortion?

The LP format does have a lot of inherent nonlinear distoriton at high frequencies due to geometric mismatch between the path of the sharp, chisel-shaped cutter, and the round or elliptical stylus.

Also, there is considerable dynamic deformation of the groove itself. which mostly springs back shortly after playing. Point being, the stylus deforms the groove in a nonlinear way while its being played.

Good question. Maybe this distortion has a similar effect like the "added warmth" of a tube amp? Maybe it's the reason why some people prefer the "smooth sound" of an LP? (To me, the mentioned 24/96 recording also sounded sort of "smooth and warm"). Surely such distortion must also be present in the audible band, I guess?

And of course there's the other issue about which so much relevant evidence has been collected that there is hardly a controversy over it any more. Can we hear the removal of audio > 22 Khz? The answer is generally no, not at all.

I read a scientific article a few years ago demonstrating how in blind tests, subjects were able to hear a 24-kHz tone and that for all of them, the threshold of hearing did not increase between 20 and 24 kHz but actually stayed on a rather constant level (at 80 dB SPL, true, but still...). 26-kHz tones, however, were inaudible to all, IIRC. I'll try to dig up that paper again.

Edit: Here is the paper. Did not quite remember it correctly, but see for yourself.

Chris

This post has been edited by C.R.Helmrich: May 15 2009, 23:11

[2Bdecided]

Edit: Here is the paper. Did not quite remember it correctly, but see for yourself.

Thanks for that - I was aware of the previous studies they referenced, but not that actual study.

Basically, above 20kHz you need about 90dB SPL or greater for a sound to be audible against silence.

You can't get close to that energy level at those frequencies with normal hi-fi. The tweeters melt.


Also, even for extreme content, if it's played so loud that the 20kHz+ region is at 90dB, the lower frequencies (i.e. the "normal" audible range) will be well over 100dB - i.e. well into the range where listening for a length of time will cause hearing damage.

Cheers,
David.

[Arnold B. Kruege...]

Edit: Here is the paper. Did not quite remember it correctly, but see for yourself.

Thanks for that - I was aware of the previous studies they referenced, but not that actual study.

Basically, above 20kHz you need about 90dB SPL or greater for a sound to be audible against silence.

And then there is masking.

And then there is sitting anyplace but exactly on axis.

And then there is the fact that virtually all musical instruments end up with harmonics trailing off at no less than 12 dB/ocatve. " The world is a collection of second-order systems".

You can't get close to that energy level at those frequencies with normal hi-fi. The tweeters melt.

And, the absorbtion of high frequencies by air is non-trivial when you get that high. This can bite you in the listening room but it is murder at the life performance.

Also, even for extreme content, if it's played so loud that the 20kHz+ region is at 90dB, the lower frequencies (i.e. the "normal" audible range) will be well over 100dB - i.e. well into the range where listening for a length of time will cause hearing damage.

As JJ points out, when you do damage your hearing, the damage often starts at the highest frequencies (hairs that are closest to the point where sound enters the sensitive part of the ear).