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How Good Can Vinyl Sound?, Anyone got some sample clips?
sshd
post May 15 2009, 14:47
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I do not own a turntable and have never heard the "great vinyl sound" coming from a good turntable handled correctly. I am however sligltly interested in purchasing one, as there are some interesting albums out there unavailable on CD.

Recently I found a small clip on the net: A lossless needledrop of Santana's debut album on the MFSL label. Since I own the CD on same label I had something to compare with: I was very disappointed with the needle drop. There were no pops or clicks, but the sound was dead.

Can anyone provide some sample clips of very good needle drops?

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C.R.Helmrich
post May 16 2009, 14:00
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Thanks a lot for the uploads, krabapple! Yes, the lowpass at 22 kHz is obvious. Plus the recordings are from the 60s or 70s. I don't think I will be able to ABX those against 16/44, so I won't smile.gif

I uploaded a 16/96 recording of a digitally controlled analog synth in this thread. Found this on a CD-R from 2004. It contains a lot of "musical content" above 22 kHz, up to 48 kHz. I might ABX that against the 44-kHz downsampled version soon.

Cheers,

Chris


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krabapple
post May 16 2009, 17:21
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QUOTE (C.R.Helmrich @ May 16 2009, 09:00) *
Thanks a lot for the uploads, krabapple! Yes, the lowpass at 22 kHz is obvious. Plus the recordings are from the 60s or 70s. I don't think I will be able to ABX those against 16/44, so I won't smile.gif

I uploaded a 16/96 recording of a digitally controlled analog synth in this thread. Found this on a CD-R from 2004. It contains a lot of "musical content" above 22 kHz, up to 48 kHz. I might ABX that against the 44-kHz downsampled version soon.

Cheers,

Chris


I wouldn't say that the files actually uploaded appear to be lowpassed at 22 -- there is 'content' (background noise, mostly, with the occasional tendril ofhigher-energy content reaching above that). That's why I chose these, versus others I didn't upload which are unmistakably lowpassed (inky black above the cutoff frequency) -- like the Talking Heads DualDiscs.



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C.R.Helmrich
post May 16 2009, 19:33
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QUOTE (krabapple @ May 16 2009, 18:21) *
I wouldn't say that the files actually uploaded appear to be lowpassed at 22 -- there is 'content' (background noise, mostly, with the occasional tendril ofhigher-energy content reaching above that). That's why I chose these, versus others I didn't upload which are unmistakably lowpassed (inky black above the cutoff frequency) -- like the Talking Heads DualDiscs.

True, I guess that's the natural lowpass of the source tapes then, and the stuff above 22 kHz is tape (machine) noise. Except maybe for the Fleetwood Mac excerpt, yes, the snares do reach above the mid 20's kHz. I think this is perfectly mastered, btw. Exploits the full dynamic range, and has just the right amount of level compression.

Going back to the original topic: does anyone have Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here on Vinyl? In Welcome to the Machine, there's a screaming analog synth whose overtones extend far beyond 20 kHz. That'd be a nice song to test the actual bandwidth of an LP (regardless of whether the tones "up there" are harmonic distortion or not).

Chris


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krabapple
post May 18 2009, 05:57
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QUOTE (C.R.Helmrich @ May 16 2009, 14:33) *
QUOTE (krabapple @ May 16 2009, 18:21) *
I wouldn't say that the files actually uploaded appear to be lowpassed at 22 -- there is 'content' (background noise, mostly, with the occasional tendril ofhigher-energy content reaching above that). That's why I chose these, versus others I didn't upload which are unmistakably lowpassed (inky black above the cutoff frequency) -- like the Talking Heads DualDiscs.

True, I guess that's the natural lowpass of the source tapes then, and the stuff above 22 kHz is tape (machine) noise. Except maybe for the Fleetwood Mac excerpt, yes, the snares do reach above the mid 20's kHz. I think this is perfectly mastered, btw. Exploits the full dynamic range, and has just the right amount of level compression.



The Neil Young and Muddy Waters stuff sounds just as good, and is mastered without constant peaking at 0 (and certainly no clipping like on the Fleetwood Mac track). Exploiting the full dynamic range, to me, means the just the truly loudest parts of the track hit 0dBFS -- this rarely happens more than once or a few times in a track. Not every drum hit, and certainly not every beat of a mellow 1977 rock tune like 'Dreams', should be pinning at 0.

Here;s another set of DVD-A rip clips, all having some content above 20 kHz. THe oldest is a 1977 recording of Messiaen's wild 'Turangalila Symphony' , a work whose orchestration including shrieking brass, a wailing theremin and masses of percussion. The other two are of 21st century vintage, one a Steely Dan piece, the other a CHesky live recording of jazzer Bucky Pizzarelli's combo -- the latter has the most >20kHz content I've seen. THe zip file includes hi-rez rips and 16/44 versions as before, for comparison.

http://rapidshare.com/files/234260425/examples.zip

This post has been edited by krabapple: May 18 2009, 06:24
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C.R.Helmrich
post May 18 2009, 21:49
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QUOTE (krabapple @ May 18 2009, 06:57) *


Thanks a lot! This is about the stuff I was looking for.

There is less clipping on the Fleetwood Mac item than it might look like. That's why I consider it good mastering smile.gif The Steely Dan item has significantly more clipping, for example.

Chris


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krabapple
post May 19 2009, 00:30
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QUOTE (C.R.Helmrich @ May 18 2009, 16:49) *
QUOTE (krabapple @ May 18 2009, 06:57) *


Thanks a lot! This is about the stuff I was looking for.

There is less clipping on the Fleetwood Mac item than it might look like. That's why I consider it good mastering smile.gif The Steely Dan item has significantly more clipping, for example.

Chris



I'm familiar with seeing waveforms that 'look ' clipped at low resolution but aren't really, when you actually magnify them. And I'm used to seeing, and discounting , some occasional clipping where 'plateaus' are just a few samples wide.

That's not quite the case with the Mac track. It's really clipping. The first flattop I zoomed in on was maybe a dozen samples wide. Not saying every peak at 0dBFS is clipped, and not even saying I can hear it, but I just don't see the point of doing it in the first place. Later on I can run a quantitative clipping analysis on the full track, using Clive Backham's excellent Wave Repair tool. Wonder what I'll see?

What's happening with Steely Dan's 'high-rez' releases -- all of them so far, including the old 'Gaucho' album on DVD-A and SACD -- is just plain bizarre, in context of the Dan's legendary fastidiousness about sound.

The Chesky disc is a real showpiece for demonstrating high-rez. It's basically giving us what hi-rez was supposed to. Though again, I'm not saying it would sound any worse at 16/44. In fact I have yet to do the ABX myself!

This post has been edited by krabapple: May 19 2009, 00:36
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Arnold B. Kruege...
post May 19 2009, 03:24
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QUOTE (krabapple @ May 18 2009, 19:30) *
The Chesky disc is a real showpiece for demonstrating high-rez. It's basically giving us what hi-rez was supposed to. Though again, I'm not saying it would sound any worse at 16/44. In fact I have yet to do the ABX myself!


The Limehouse Blues track illustrates the vanishing amount of energy that exists > 20 KHz in most recordings.

If I brickwall lowpass filter this track at 20 KHz, there is no difference in peak and average levels out to 4 decimal places.

If I brickwall highpass filter this track at 20 KHz, the average amplitude of the information > 20 KHz is 50-55 dB down.


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Posts in this topic
- sshd   How Good Can Vinyl Sound?   May 15 2009, 14:47
- - 2Bdecided   See this thread for recent discussion on this topi...   May 15 2009, 16:02
- - bryant   http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showt...   May 15 2009, 17:39
- - DVDdoug   QUOTE I do not own a turntable and have never hear...   May 15 2009, 17:54
- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (sshd @ May 15 2009, 09:47) I do no...   May 15 2009, 19:51
|- - Glenn Gundlach   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ May 15 2009, 10...   May 15 2009, 21:03
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Glenn Gundlach @ May 15 2009, 16:0...   May 15 2009, 21:45
- - krabapple   First, all digital ends up as 'analog sound...   May 15 2009, 21:07
|- - C.R.Helmrich   QUOTE (krabapple @ May 15 2009, 22:07) Fi...   May 15 2009, 22:23
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (C.R.Helmrich @ May 15 2009, 17:23)...   May 15 2009, 22:36
||- - C.R.Helmrich   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ May 15 2009, 23...   May 15 2009, 23:02
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (C.R.Helmrich @ May 15 2009, 18:02)...   May 15 2009, 23:23
|||- - C.R.Helmrich   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ May 16 2009, 00...   May 15 2009, 23:48
|||- - greynol   QUOTE (C.R.Helmrich @ May 15 2009, 15:48)...   May 16 2009, 00:02
|||- - krabapple   QUOTE (C.R.Helmrich @ May 15 2009, 18:48)...   May 16 2009, 00:17
|||- - C.R.Helmrich   QUOTE (krabapple @ May 16 2009, 01:17) No...   May 16 2009, 00:26
||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (C.R.Helmrich @ May 15 2009, 23:02)...   May 18 2009, 11:13
|||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ May 18 2009, 06:13) QU...   May 18 2009, 16:35
||- - 2Bdecided   delete duplicate post   May 18 2009, 11:13
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (C.R.Helmrich @ May 15 2009, 17:23)...   May 16 2009, 00:03
|- - cliveb   QUOTE (krabapple @ May 16 2009, 00:03) Ju...   May 16 2009, 09:03
- - boondocks   As someone that grew up with vinyl, who had 3 copi...   May 15 2009, 22:09
- - Axon   Many people get that "great vinyl sound...   May 15 2009, 22:11
|- - boondocks   QUOTE (Axon @ May 15 2009, 17:11) Many pe...   May 16 2009, 22:27
- - greynol   I think the implication is that the information ab...   May 16 2009, 00:08
|- - WonderSlug   QUOTE (greynol @ May 15 2009, 16:08) I th...   May 16 2009, 00:26
- - krabapple   I looked at spectra pf my complete repertoire of s...   May 16 2009, 08:10
|- - Alex B   QUOTE (krabapple @ May 16 2009, 10:10) .....   May 16 2009, 15:25
- - C.R.Helmrich   Thanks a lot for the uploads, krabapple! Yes, ...   May 16 2009, 14:00
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (C.R.Helmrich @ May 16 2009, 09:00)...   May 16 2009, 17:21
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (krabapple @ May 16 2009, 12:21) I ...   May 16 2009, 17:50
||- - krabapple   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ May 16 2009, 12...   May 16 2009, 18:19
|- - C.R.Helmrich   QUOTE (krabapple @ May 16 2009, 18:21) I ...   May 16 2009, 19:33
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (C.R.Helmrich @ May 16 2009, 14:33)...   May 18 2009, 05:57
|- - C.R.Helmrich   QUOTE (krabapple @ May 18 2009, 06:57) ht...   May 18 2009, 21:49
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (C.R.Helmrich @ May 18 2009, 16:49)...   May 19 2009, 00:30
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (krabapple @ May 18 2009, 19:30) Th...   May 19 2009, 03:24
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ May 18 2009, 22...   May 19 2009, 21:00
- - Soap   I fricking hate rapidshare and I doubt I am alone....   May 16 2009, 14:17
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Soap @ May 16 2009, 09:17) I frick...   May 16 2009, 18:09
- - lvqcl   QUOTE (krabapple)What might also be interesting is...   May 19 2009, 21:47
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (lvqcl @ May 19 2009, 16:47) QUOTE ...   May 19 2009, 22:01
|- - C.R.Helmrich   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ May 19 2009, 23...   May 19 2009, 22:06
- - krabapple   Ah! I guess I was having a past-life memory. ...   May 20 2009, 05:12
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (krabapple @ May 20 2009, 00:12) Ah...   May 20 2009, 11:04
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- - WmAx   A very high pitch stable table with a low resonanc...   Jun 25 2009, 01:16
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (WmAx @ Jun 24 2009, 20:16) A very ...   Jun 26 2009, 14:58
|- - WmAx   QUOTE (WmAx @ Jun 24 2009, 20:16) A very ...   Jun 27 2009, 09:01
- - greynol   It's sort of the spirit of this thread to post...   Jun 26 2009, 16:23
- - 2Bdecided   If you meant "during the music", then I ...   Jun 27 2009, 10:09
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- - Canar   I await your uploads with eager anticipation.   Jan 19 2010, 16:26
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Canar @ Jan 19 2010, 10:26) I awai...   Jan 25 2010, 13:39
|- - Mescalito   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jan 25 2010, 12...   Jan 26 2010, 09:51
- - Cavaille   I wonder if I also can upload something. To enter...   Jan 26 2010, 12:20
- - RonaldDumsfeld   ^^ Yes please. especially if you have some well kn...   Jan 26 2010, 12:50
|- - Tony T   I recently converted my vinyl to Flac (wav) and wo...   Jan 26 2010, 14:56
- - Cavaille   So, here they are. Some of this music is mainstre...   Jan 26 2010, 14:07
|- - jamie_P84   QUOTE (Cavaille @ Jan 26 2010, 13:07) So,...   Feb 3 2010, 21:47
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (jamie_P84 @ Feb 3 2010, 15:47) The...   Feb 3 2010, 22:25
|- - cliveb   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Feb 3 2010, 21...   Feb 4 2010, 09:28
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (cliveb @ Feb 4 2010, 04:28) QUOTE ...   Jun 7 2010, 15:39
- - 2Bdecided   With the caveat that I have a cold, and I don...   Jan 26 2010, 14:17
- - Cavaille   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 26 2010, 14:17) Ba...   Jan 26 2010, 14:31
- - Canar   I've got some samples to create and publish he...   Jan 26 2010, 15:06
|- - Cavaille   QUOTE (Canar @ Jan 26 2010, 15:06) I...   Jan 26 2010, 15:41
- - Canar   Here is the list of specifications for my cartridg...   Jan 26 2010, 16:18
|- - DonP   QUOTE (Canar @ Jan 26 2010, 10:18) Here i...   Jan 26 2010, 16:32
|- - pdq   QUOTE (Canar @ Jan 26 2010, 11:18) Credit...   Jan 26 2010, 18:30
- - Canar   Thanks for the info, DonP. I don't know this s...   Jan 26 2010, 16:36
- - Cavaille   Thank you for the explanation, Canar. But Iīm afra...   Jan 26 2010, 16:36
- - Fedot L   QUOTE (cliveb @ May 16 2009, 09:03) QUOTE...   Jan 26 2010, 23:01
- - Fedot L   QUOTE (Cavaille @ Jan 26 2010, 13:07) So,...   Jan 26 2010, 23:32
- - Cavaille   QUOTE (Fedot L @ Jan 26 2010, 23:32) QUOT...   Jan 27 2010, 06:28
- - Cavaille   QUOTE (jamie_P84 @ Feb 3 2010, 21:47) Des...   Feb 4 2010, 02:13
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Cavaille @ Feb 4 2010, 01:13) QUOT...   Feb 4 2010, 10:24
- - Cavaille   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Feb 4 2010, 10:24) QUO...   Feb 4 2010, 15:04
- - 2Bdecided   Here you go: /?sharekey=605ee2b5f85656f5e62ea590d...   Feb 4 2010, 15:34
- - Canar   Based on this incident, we have upped the user sto...   Feb 4 2010, 17:03
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Canar @ Feb 4 2010, 16:03) Based o...   Feb 4 2010, 18:03
- - Cavaille   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Feb 4 2010, 15:34) Her...   Feb 5 2010, 04:51
- - yamfox   This good: Link That's my vinyl rip, with a us...   Jun 5 2010, 01:06
|- - Glenn Gundlach   QUOTE (yamfox @ Jun 4 2010, 16:06) This g...   Jun 7 2010, 18:20
|- - doctorcilantro   Here is a 24/192 sample. And here is a 96kHz vers...   Sep 1 2010, 22:16
|- - Canar   QUOTE (doctorcilantro @ Sep 1 2010, 16:16...   Sep 2 2010, 00:10
||- - doctorcilantro   QUOTE (Canar @ Sep 2 2010, 01:10) QUOTE (...   Sep 2 2010, 00:16
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||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (doctorcilantro @ Sep 2 2010, 01:18...   Sep 2 2010, 09:38
||- - doctorcilantro   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Sep 2 2010, 10:38) QUO...   Sep 2 2010, 11:21
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (doctorcilantro @ Sep 1 2010, 17:16...   Sep 2 2010, 04:43
|- - doctorcilantro   QUOTE (krabapple @ Sep 2 2010, 05:43) QUO...   Sep 2 2010, 04:53
- - greynol   I can understand the 8 extra bits headroom and pro...   Sep 1 2010, 22:28
- - doctorcilantro   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 1 2010, 23:28) I can...   Sep 2 2010, 00:20
- - Canar   QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 1 2010, 16:28) Would...   Sep 2 2010, 00:23
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