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Succesful ABX of 24/96 vs. 16/44.1
googlebot
post Jun 7 2010, 18:30
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The maximum sample rate of my digital output is 96 kHz at 24 bit. To eliminate as many variables as possible I locked the output to that format and pre-converted the test files accordingly using the highest quality options available. As source material I have used the 24bit/192kHz track from this thread.

The high resolution contestant (24/96) was produced using the following settings:

CODE
sox Sample_192000Hz_24bit.wav 24-96000.wav rate -v 96000 dither -s


That is the setting recommended by Sox' developers for SRC with large target rates. Basically linear phase filters and sloped TPDF dither.

For the Redbook contestant, the 24bit/192khz track was first down-sampled to 16bit/441000Hz:

CODE
sox Sample_192000Hz_24bit.wav -b 16 16-44100.wav rate -v 44100 dither -s


And then up-sampled to 24bit/96kHz, again at the highest quality settings:

CODE
sox 16-44100.wav -b 24 16-44100-24-96000.wav rate -v 96000 dither -s


My hearing tops at about 17 kHz. Still I can hear pretty clear difference over a pair of Elac FS 607 X-Jet speakers, which are rated for 28-50000Hz (IEC 268-5):

CODE
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.0.3
2010/06/07 18:25:51

File A: C:\Dokumente und Einstellungen\Christian\Desktop\16-441to24-96.wav
File B: C:\Dokumente und Einstellungen\Christian\Desktop\24-96.wav

18:25:51 : Test started.
18:26:44 : 01/01  50.0%
18:27:09 : 02/02  25.0%
18:27:26 : 03/03  12.5%
18:27:44 : 04/04  6.3%
18:28:00 : 05/05  3.1%
18:28:21 : 06/06  1.6%
18:28:38 : 07/07  0.8%
18:28:52 : 08/08  0.4%
18:29:06 : 09/09  0.2%
18:29:17 : 10/10  0.1%
18:29:33 : 11/11  0.0%
18:29:46 : 12/12  0.0%
18:30:03 : 13/13  0.0%
18:30:26 : 14/14  0.0%
18:30:42 : 15/15  0.0%
18:31:04 : 16/16  0.0%
18:31:08 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 16/16 (0.0%)


I do not think, that I actually hear the presence or absence of stationary HF content. But what I am hearing is louder and somewhat smeared sounding transients in the Redbook version. That is exactly the type of pass-band artifact to be expected from low-pass filtering, but until lately I hadn't considered that to be audible, when done right. And since that step is necessary it can also not be avoided for Redbook delivery.

I do not hear a difference over my regular Canton speakers, which top at about 20kHz! Neither over my Grado headphones. Since both act as a mechanical low pass, I think they just cause the same artifacts in the pass band as the digital low-passing.

Until today I have mostly laughed at high resolution apologists. But that ABX result somewhat changed my perspective. Maybe those, who say that you do need excellent speakers to hear a difference are actually right? On the other hand this is just one very artificial and synthetic sample. The results can very likely not be extrapolated to real world recordings. I don't know. What do you all think?

The speakers are here for testing right now, but I think I'm going to buy them.

PS: I have uploaded the samples.

This post has been edited by googlebot: Jun 7 2010, 18:36
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Wombat
post Oct 20 2011, 01:01
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I tried these samples with my HD-590 and X-Fi XtremeMusic in Win7, playback 24/96, audio producing mode.

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.1.8
2011/10/20 01:35:37

File A: C:\testfiles\16_441to24_96.wav
File B: C:\testfiles\24_96.wav

01:35:37 : Test started.
01:36:17 : 00/01 100.0%
01:36:23 : Trial reset.
01:38:58 : 01/01 50.0%
01:39:39 : 02/02 25.0%
01:40:15 : 03/03 12.5%
01:41:11 : 04/04 6.3%
01:42:38 : 05/05 3.1%
01:42:43 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 5/6 (10.9%)

Not perfect and i really need a quiete room at night + a very good day i sadly have to few of atm. I didnīt try for to long. On the re-resample i hear the high note synths not as clean as with the native 96kHz resample in the moments the bass beats come.
I listened second 11 to 14 in loop.
This is quite surprising since i did lately tons of imho serious listening to find a resample setting i want to use with sox. I for myself ended up using not the sox recommendation. I use a slower filter, allow aliasing above the passband and use the lower shaped shibata dither. Maybe it now comes out this wasnīt a to silly choice smile.gif Of cause i donīt want to enter audiophile territory with this claim but if anyone wants to try it this way when he thinks sox standard has problems and may report here?

More likely is we have a problem here with applying 2x dither and 2 times a lowpass at exactly the same spot. One time on downsampling and one time on upsampling.
Like said before, on all my tries before i only tried some 24/96 directly to 16/44.1 and did not find any problem.

Edit: i never realy understood how the X-Fi works in win7 and what other evil things may interact with it, so you may have an idea. Also i didnīt find a working link to the 192kHz original.
I also want to mention i once failed to abx a prepared sample from 2bdecided of "Jazz t the Pawnshop" that he simply created with applying a lowpass to the 96kHz file simulating a resample.

This post has been edited by Wombat: Oct 20 2011, 01:16
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Posts in this topic
- googlebot   Succesful ABX of 24/96 vs. 16/44.1   Jun 7 2010, 18:30
- - greynol   Have you tried other resampling algorithms? After...   Jun 7 2010, 18:53
- - googlebot   I really can't explain it, yet. Maybe somethin...   Jun 7 2010, 19:27
- - greynol   I don't have a good set of headphones or a qui...   Jun 7 2010, 19:32
- - IgorC   CODEfoo_abx 1.3.4 report foobar2000 v1.0.3 2010/06...   Jun 7 2010, 20:23
- - Cavaille   Iīd love to do it but right now Iīm suffering from...   Jun 7 2010, 20:54
- - udauda   16_44to24_96.wav has an unusual HF noise component...   Jun 8 2010, 02:01
|- - googlebot   QUOTE (udauda @ Jun 8 2010, 03:01) 16_44t...   Jun 8 2010, 03:43
|- - greynol   QUOTE (udauda @ Jun 7 2010, 18:01) it see...   Jun 8 2010, 07:21
- - JSW   Well, I think it would be a good idea to repeat th...   Jun 26 2010, 08:38
- - Eudaimonius   Could this be related to what's described in t...   Jun 26 2010, 09:41
- - Arnold B. Krueger   googlebot: I don't see anything obvioiusly wr...   Jun 27 2010, 06:34
|- - googlebot   Wouldn't IM artifacts within the audible band ...   Jun 27 2010, 07:39
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (googlebot @ Jun 27 2010, 02:39) Wo...   Jun 27 2010, 23:34
|- - Notat   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jun 26 2010, 23...   Jul 4 2010, 18:23
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   I can definitately hear 0.1 % nonlinear distortion...   Jul 7 2010, 11:03
|- - JSW   I don't think I'm prepared to perform eith...   Jul 7 2010, 21:45
- - JSW   I just tried an ABX with this sample. To eliminat...   Jun 28 2010, 04:53
- - JSW   I just did a listening test on the effect of downs...   Jul 3 2010, 20:36
- - onlyconnect   I am surprised this thread did not prompt more dis...   Oct 18 2011, 09:28
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   Certain 24/96 recordings will sound audibly differ...   Oct 18 2011, 19:48
- - IgorC   Here ABX test was successful again on those sample...   Oct 19 2011, 04:27
- - Canar   24/96 vs. 16/44.1 has two independent variables. T...   Oct 19 2011, 04:29
- - IgorC   Good point, Canar, I was thinking too about tryi...   Oct 19 2011, 04:51
|- - onlyconnect   QUOTE (IgorC @ Oct 19 2011, 04:51) I can ...   Oct 19 2011, 09:42
|- - IgorC   QUOTE (onlyconnect @ Oct 19 2011, 05:42) ...   Oct 20 2011, 01:41
- - Wombat   I tried these samples with my HD-590 and X-Fi Xtre...   Oct 20 2011, 01:01
- - Wombat   Now that baffled me. I loaded the 2 samples into ...   Oct 20 2011, 02:08
- - Brand   I did a quick test and couldn't ABX them. But ...   Oct 20 2011, 09:44
- - bandpass   Let's eliminate resampling completely to begin...   Dec 3 2013, 10:56
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (bandpass @ Dec 3 2013, 04:56) Let...   Dec 4 2013, 13:03
- - Wombat   I must have overlooked these intermod test samples...   Dec 4 2013, 14:50


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