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Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!, Any help will be greatly appreciated
2E7AH
post Jun 18 2010, 11:54
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Probably not, he is teen so maybe changed his mind or forgot that he even posted, however we could always post a link to this thread for any other teen with blocky concerns about CD (or even DVD-A) vs warm bold vinyl response
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analog scott
post Jun 18 2010, 12:08
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QUOTE (dv1989 @ Jun 17 2010, 22:50) *
Axon, you have a point. However, the OP ought to do something to verify whether vinyl really does sound as superior as he seems to think, or whether it was only the placebo effect. That was what I was trying to promote in my earlier post. It may save him from dropping a load of money on equipment, and perhaps vinyl versions of releases that he already owns.

FWIW, I'm one of those cynics (science-y types? tongue.gif) that doesn't think vinyl can ever sound better than CD, assuming equivalent mastering on both versions. I wouldn't be averse to buying the occasional release on vinyl for the 'look and feel' of the packaging (larger size included), and the novelty of using a 'retro' format (perhaps on a really old turntable, for full effect!)--but certainly not for reasons of fidelity.



Perhaps you should consider doing some propper level matched blind A/B comparisons using CDs and vinyl that were mastered the same way (not a lot of these things floating around, the Boyk Pictures at an Exhibition being the best example) using one of the better high end vinyl rigs before drawing any conclusions. Placebo effect can go both ways. I would think that would be something a science-y type would do. You might find the results quite surprising. I would suggest seeking out equipment that is notorious for it's euphonic distortions. Maybe you won't like that sound but I think it is worth trying with an open mind and open ears.

Then you might want to consider the issue of different masterings. The fact is most titles are mastered quite differently each time they are mastered. If a given title is mastered better on vinyl what do you do?
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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Jun 18 2010, 13:16
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QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jun 18 2010, 06:29) *
Does anyone think the OP is still reading? wink.gif


He couldn't have been a hit-and-run troll, could he? ;-)
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pdq
post Jun 18 2010, 13:24
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QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jun 18 2010, 08:16) *
QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jun 18 2010, 06:29) *
Does anyone think the OP is still reading? wink.gif


He couldn't have been a hit-and-run troll, could he? ;-)

He's probably just rethinking his original request.
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Sir Pwn4lot
post Jun 18 2010, 16:07
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QUOTE (2E7AH @ Jun 18 2010, 18:54) *
Probably not, he is teen so maybe changed his mind or forgot that he even posted, however we could always post a link to this thread for any other teen with blocky concerns about CD (or even DVD-A) vs warm bold vinyl response


Nope still here. I've just been doing a little research. Looking at the SR80 headphones, but I'm not sure about the table itself yet. Firstly, thanks for the huge response I didn't expect anywhere near this many comments.

I have a total of about $750 set aside for this, although I would prefer to reserve a hundred or so for records to start out with. Amazon US seems to have a broad range (and I've ordered from there before), but I have concerns with their shipping process (which has left some of the hardcover books I've ordered from them a little damaged). I'm still looking for the internet record store (like how the Book Depository is the internet book site), but I'm sure I'll figure something out.

I didn't mean to make some sort of hate-statement against CDs, although looking back it certainly looks like I did. Sorry about that, you know how things get when you're excited. I currently have all my CDs ripped into FLAC in Winamp and they sound very nice, especially the more vibrant orchestral pieces (I have a disk of Mozart and it's amazing). I really like the scratches and muffles a record gives you though, it seems more authentic, as if you have some ancient bond with the artist blink.gif

Anyway, I'm just browsing the NeedleDoctor.com site for setups. Any advice on cartridges? Apparently they much improve your sound. Is it worth buying a $500 deck or a $400 deck and a $100 cartridge? Regardless, that is about my price range. If there are any standout setups in that area then I'd be very grateful for the recommendation. Headphones too smile.gif Preferably I need good high level reproduction in the headphones, but obviously I need the low end for darker music, and the general listening process.

Thanks for the overwhelming response guys, it's been a great first impression, and sorry for the initial comment sad.gif

This post has been edited by Sir Pwn4lot: Jun 18 2010, 16:30
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analog scott
post Jun 18 2010, 18:29
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QUOTE (Sir Pwn4lot @ Jun 18 2010, 16:07) *
QUOTE (2E7AH @ Jun 18 2010, 18:54) *
Probably not, he is teen so maybe changed his mind or forgot that he even posted, however we could always post a link to this thread for any other teen with blocky concerns about CD (or even DVD-A) vs warm bold vinyl response


Nope still here. I've just been doing a little research. Looking at the SR80 headphones, but I'm not sure about the table itself yet. Firstly, thanks for the huge response I didn't expect anywhere near this many comments.

I have a total of about $750 set aside for this, although I would prefer to reserve a hundred or so for records to start out with. Amazon US seems to have a broad range (and I've ordered from there before), but I have concerns with their shipping process (which has left some of the hardcover books I've ordered from them a little damaged). I'm still looking for the internet record store (like how the Book Depository is the internet book site), but I'm sure I'll figure something out.

I didn't mean to make some sort of hate-statement against CDs, although looking back it certainly looks like I did. Sorry about that, you know how things get when you're excited. I currently have all my CDs ripped into FLAC in Winamp and they sound very nice, especially the more vibrant orchestral pieces (I have a disk of Mozart and it's amazing). I really like the scratches and muffles a record gives you though, it seems more authentic, as if you have some ancient bond with the artist blink.gif

Anyway, I'm just browsing the NeedleDoctor.com site for setups. Any advice on cartridges? Apparently they much improve your sound. Is it worth buying a $500 deck or a $400 deck and a $100 cartridge? Regardless, that is about my price range. If there are any standout setups in that area then I'd be very grateful for the recommendation. Headphones too smile.gif Preferably I need good high level reproduction in the headphones, but obviously I need the low end for darker music, and the general listening process.

Thanks for the overwhelming response guys, it's been a great first impression, and sorry for the initial comment sad.gif



Not a bad budget actually.
Here are some possiblilities
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anl...on-Audio-RD-11S
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anl...ic-Hall-MMF-5.1
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anl...;/Rega-Planar-3

And if you are willing to go up a few hundred bucks this is a really fine table.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anl...p;/VPI-HW-19-Jr.

Nothing wrong with going second hand and all these rigs already have decent cartridges.
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DVDdoug
post Jun 18 2010, 20:02
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QUOTE
Is it worth buying a $500 deck or a $400 deck and a $100 cartridge?
Ahhhh, back on topic!

I don't have any advice for the turntable, but for an upper price limit on the cartridge, Shure's best (M97xE) can be found for under $100 USD. I wouldn't spend any more that.

This post has been edited by DVDdoug: Jun 18 2010, 20:04
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Knowzy
post Jun 18 2010, 21:23
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QUOTE (Sir Pwn4lot @ Jun 18 2010, 08:07) *
I have a total of about $750 set aside for this, although I would prefer to reserve a hundred or so for records to start out with.

That is almost exact budget limit I set for the "Super Analog Turntables" section of my guide (last discussed here). I'm always looking to update and improve it.

The budget limit is a bit higher than Sir's considering:
  • $750 AUD is about $650 USD at today's exchange rate.
  • There's a good chance he'll have to pay for shipping to Australia
  • He wants something to play on the new turntable.


Right now on the Superior Analog Turntable list I have:
  • Technics SL-1200MK2 for $600. It was recently downgraded from the SL-1200MK5 when the price creeped up to $750 (cartridge not included).
  • Denon DP-300F for $330. The Denon DP-500F is just on the wrong side of $750 when you add a cartridge.
  • Thorens TD 190-2 for $529.
  • Numark TT500. Was around $350 if I remember correctly. Has since been discontinued.

I'd love to hear about new turntables that meet the full criteria. The criteria is also up for debate.

QUOTE (Sir Pwn4lot @ Jun 18 2010, 08:07) *
Anyway, I'm just browsing the NeedleDoctor.com site for setups. Any advice on cartridges? Apparently they much improve your sound. Is it worth buying a $500 deck or a $400 deck and a $100 cartridge?

Yes, the cartridge is of upmost importance. It's also upgradable, whereas the rest of the setup may not be.

Whether or not you're planning to upgrade later will help you decide where to place the emphasis now- cartridge or turntable.

I don't think you'll be doing a lot of complaining if you get "stuck" with the Ortofon OM 10 that comes with the Thorens TD 190-2! smile.gif

Of course, there's a chance the turntable may not come with a cartridge at all.

This post has been edited by Knowzy: Jun 18 2010, 21:25
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Axon
post Jun 18 2010, 23:00
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lulz, I was bored enough to google the OP name, which was more than enough to indicate that he is not a troll. (If you're the same "Sir Pwn4lot" I found results for, I have to cynically wonder how fun it was being a skeptic, in high school, in The Woodlands!)

Listening to vinyl on headphones is an entirely pleasurable/acceptable experience - that's more or less the only way I listen - but it is most definitely not the listening method vinyl was really designed for. What I mean by that is, headphones typically have SNRs and channel coherences so far and beyond what one finds with speakers, that the transient noise inherent with vinyl tends to become far more audible, and there isn't really anything you can do to counteract that.

On the other hand, headphones suffer none of the feedback issues in the bass/subbass region that plague subwoofer+turntable combinations, and generally, you get a lot more for your money from phones than from speakers, and of course they're vastly easier to transport (bonus!)

The bare minimum you should be looking at for a "serious quality" cartridge is an MM with elliptical profile stylus. Compliance is generally not a huge problem until you start getting into MCs or exotic tonearms. I can personally recommend the AT95E (a custom option from lpgear.com which btw generally has lower prices than needledoctor, at least for shipping to the US), but AT, Ortofon, Grado, Shure etc all have really good options under $100.

Generally, you will tend to get much better vinyl deals when buying stuff in person rather than online. New vinyl costs about the same everywhere and online used vinyl sellers tend to grade records much higher than they should be. That said, that involves buying a lot of used vinyl, much of which will want some cleaning, and you need to buy/clean/play a lot of records to make a cheap record cleaner pay for itself.
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MichaelW
post Jun 19 2010, 06:27
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QUOTE (Sir Pwn4lot @ Jun 19 2010, 03:07) *
I really like the scratches and muffles a record gives you though, it seems more authentic, as if you have some ancient bond with the artist blink.gif


+1 Clarity of insight, not confusing preferred sound with fidelity. It's a bit like the original instruments movement: a baroque violin quite frankly can sound scratchy, but sometimes it's right. Me, I'm glad never to have to deal with vinyl again, but if OP is into audio Lomography, and knows what that is, good luck. And it must be said, when I was transferring my old vinyl, the ritual involved in playing an LP did evoke memories.
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Axon
post Jun 19 2010, 07:08
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And then, of course, there is the music descibed by the artist as incomplete without surface noise.
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AndyH-ha
post Jun 19 2010, 22:52
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I have no idea about your local conditions, but over the past nine years Iíve purchased about 1000 albums from thrift stores, prices ranging from $0.20 to $2.00 each. There are some definite problems with this approach: there are many titles that will never show up in those bins, you have to search through a lot of old clunkers to find the more interesting ones, and you can never be certain of the condition before buying. Some scratches and scuffing can be difficult to see under their lighting conditions and I donít know any way to tell about in-the-groove damage (from incorrect equipment setup and poor alignment) without playing the disk.

However, I have found quite a lot of very good music this way. I tend to look for things that seem potentially interesting but Iíve never heard of before. This no doubt gives me a better success rate than someone looking for specific albums. I use software to clean out the vinyl defects (those things that can be repaired), so I can deal with more surface damage than someone who wants to just listen directly, but Iíve run across a fair number of albums that seem to have hardly been played (and a few that were still sealed new). You may end up throwing half of your purchases back but if you arenít intent on only specific performances, thrift stores can significantly extend a budget.
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greynol
post Jun 20 2010, 20:34
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QUOTE (Sir Pwn4lot @ Jun 19 2010, 03:07) *
I really like the scratches and muffles a record gives you though, it seems more authentic, as if you have some ancient bond with the artist blink.gif

...except there were no record players in the day of Mozart. Maybe some day we'll see some of his scores where he put notations in for where he wanted scratches and muffles from some futuristic device to produce. cool.gif


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Your eyes cannot hear.
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DonP
post Jun 21 2010, 00:06
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QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Jun 19 2010, 17:52) *
but Iíve run across a fair number of albums that seem to have hardly been played (and a few that were still sealed new).


Not too long ago I ran across a few never-played 78's. Luckily I have a friend who still keeps a turntable set up for that.

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2Bdecided
post Jun 21 2010, 10:05
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I'd consider a decent used turntable.

My experience is different from Axon - I find vinyl through headphones is a bit painful. At least some of the imperfections get lost in the room with speakers - they're clinically laid bare with headphones.

I have over 10000 records, but I don't get the desire to buy new releases on vinyl - not unless there's something wrong with the CD mastering. So I guess I'm the wrong person to comment!

Funny how so many people get enthusiastic and nostalgic over the faults of vinyl, but very few get enthusiastic or nostalgic over the faults of cassettes.

At the end of the day, we're discussing big kids toys.

Cheers,
David.
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Axon
post Jun 22 2010, 00:29
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I do have to admit that you have to hone your zen listening states to enjoy vinyl on headphones. You will hear its imperfections every second of the performance so you must look past them. (Which isn't terribly bad advice in general..)
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Emon
post Jun 22 2010, 03:38
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I remember reading a few years ago, of someone on HA who had or found electron microscope scans of vinyl LPs and found that, due to the material characteristics of PVC, vinyl didn't have that great of resolution because the material gets chipped away on a small scale, ultimately making it a discrete representation. I also remember someone doing the math and finding that an LP, even if made out of hydrogen atoms, didn't offer as much resolution as 24-bit PCM.
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Knowzy
post Jun 22 2010, 04:16
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QUOTE (Emon @ Jun 21 2010, 19:38) *
I also remember someone doing the math and finding that an LP, even if made out of hydrogen atoms, didn't offer as much resolution as 24-bit PCM.


I think you're remembering this thread:

QUOTE
[Records are] made of the polymer pvc. One molecule of pvc is about 100,000 angstroms. This means that, if the cutters were actually removing single pvc molecules the vinyl records would have about 11 bits of resolution.


256 replies later, I don't think a definitive equivalent was ever agreed upon but it was a fun conversation!
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