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44.1 vs 88.2 ABX report at AES
2Bdecided
post Jul 16 2010, 17:07
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Here:

http://www.aes.org/events/128/papers/?ID=2252

QUOTE
P18-6 Sampling Rate Discrimination: 44.1 kHz vs. 88.2 kHz—Amandine Pras, Catherine Guastavino, McGill University - Montreal, Quebec, Canada
It is currently common practice for sound engineers to record digital music using high-resolution formats, and then down sample the files to 44.1 kHz for commercial release. This study aims at investigating whether listeners can perceive differences between musical files recorded at 44.1 kHz and 88.2 kHz with the same analog chain and type of AD-converter. Sixteen expert listeners were asked to compare 3 versions (44.1 kHz, 88.2 kHz, and the 88.2 kHz version down-sampled to 44.1 kHz) of 5 musical excerpts in a blind ABX task. Overall, participants were able to discriminate between files recorded at 88.2 kHz and their 44.1 kHz down-sampled version. Furthermore, for the orchestral excerpt, they were able to discriminate between files recorded at 88.2 kHz and files recorded at 44.1 kHz.
Convention Paper 8101


Was anyone at the presentation? Has anyone bought the paper?

Cheers,
David.
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googlebot
post Jul 16 2010, 22:25
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Why upsample? 99.9% of all DACs oversample anyway.

I also don't understand why a 192kHz DAC is supposedly cheaper to build. It is cheaper to build a good sounding 96kHz ADC than a 44.1kHz one, since the latter needs brickwall filtering. But oversampling DACs have quite relaxed filtering requirements already. So why should a 192kHz version be cheaper to build than a 44.1kHz version?

PS

Thank you, krabapple! The data itself shows not a proof but a 'tendency' that the summary is quite fishy... wink.gif For anyone claiming that p=0.1 is a 'tendency' that could not be called a baseless offense, I guess. biggrin.gif

Have they documented the exact method of downsampling?

This post has been edited by googlebot: Jul 16 2010, 22:40
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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Jul 16 2010, 23:47
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QUOTE (googlebot @ Jul 16 2010, 17:25) *
Why upsample? 99.9% of all DACs oversample anyway.


Upsampling and oversampling differ, at least in terms of purpose and implementation.

QUOTE
I also don't understand why a 192kHz DAC is supposedly cheaper to build. It is cheaper to build a good sounding 96kHz ADC than a 44.1kHz one, since the latter needs brickwall filtering.


Actually, they both need and get brickwall filtering. Some high sample rate DACs have a slow drop in response above 20 KHz, to like maybe 6 dB down at Nyquist. Then they have the usual sharp cutoff. From a digital filter desgn viewpoint it is all pretty much the same. The gentle roll off is window dressing. They still need a fairly complex digital filter to get the 90+ dB rejection above Nyquist. Some DACs are programmable to work either way. How moot does that make things?

Putting a gentle ramp a few feet high in front of the brick wall does not mean a signficiantly gentler stop when you hit the brick wall! ;-)

Chip speed and real estate is so cheap that people will put features like 192 KHz sample rate into the chip to help make sure it gets bought no matter what. A chip that does not work well at 44.1 is crap in any design engineers book because that is the bread and butter. If you make it run at 192 then maybe it iwill sell a few more < $200 surround receivers to ignorant Joe six-pack types who think that anything with bigger numbers is better.

QUOTE
But oversampling DACs have quite relaxed filtering requirements already. So why should a 192kHz version be cheaper to build than a 44.1kHz version?


In fact what has happened is that 192/24 DAC chips have been under $1.00 in production quantities for years. I've found them in $50 DVD players. The circuit board space they sit on costs about as much as the chip if not more. You no longer pay a signficiant premium for > 44 KHz audio DACs. If you pay a premium, you pay it for improved dynamic range and low distortion. The premium you pay for magnificant performance is far less than it was even 5 years ago. There is stuff out there with 120 dB converters for less than $200.
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Posts in this topic
- 2Bdecided   44.1 vs 88.2 ABX report at AES   Jul 16 2010, 17:07
- - Dologan   Interesting. The fact that the discrimination was ...   Jul 16 2010, 18:18
|- - C.R.Helmrich   http://coltrane.music.mcgill.ca/MAQ/experiments co...   Jul 16 2010, 19:33
|- - Dologan   QUOTE (C.R.Helmrich @ Jul 16 2010, 19:33)...   Jul 16 2010, 20:30
- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jul 16 2010, 12:07) He...   Jul 16 2010, 19:45
|- - pbelkner   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jul 16 2010, 20...   Jul 16 2010, 20:01
||- - Dologan   QUOTE (pbelkner @ Jul 16 2010, 20:01) QUO...   Jul 16 2010, 20:03
||- - pbelkner   QUOTE (Dologan @ Jul 16 2010, 21:03) but ...   Jul 16 2010, 20:19
||- - benski   Yes, exactly. It is cheaper to design a 192kHz DA...   Jul 16 2010, 20:47
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Dologan @ Jul 16 2010, 15:03) QUOT...   Jul 16 2010, 23:21
|- - C.R.Helmrich   QUOTE Overall, participants were able to discrimin...   Jul 16 2010, 20:25
|- - pbelkner   QUOTE (C.R.Helmrich @ Jul 16 2010, 21:25)...   Jul 16 2010, 20:59
- - krabapple   1) I suggest this thread be focused on the 44.1 v...   Jul 16 2010, 22:23
|- - WernerO   QUOTE (krabapple @ Jul 16 2010, 23:23) Th...   Aug 11 2010, 13:51
|- - mzil   QUOTE (krabapple @ Jul 16 2010, 17:23) 2)...   Jul 22 2012, 02:47
|- - C.R.Helmrich   Sorry for bumping this thread, but I thought the f...   Mar 8 2014, 01:21
|- - [JAZ]   QUOTE (C.R.Helmrich @ Mar 8 2014, 01:21) ...   Mar 8 2014, 18:38
- - googlebot   Why upsample? 99.9% of all DACs oversample anyway....   Jul 16 2010, 22:25
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (googlebot @ Jul 16 2010, 17:25) Wh...   Jul 16 2010, 23:47
|- - benski   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jul 16 2010, 18...   Jul 17 2010, 03:12
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (benski @ Jul 16 2010, 22:12) QUOTE...   Jul 17 2010, 06:39
||- - greynol   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jul 16 2010, 22...   Jul 17 2010, 18:33
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 17 2010, 13:33) QUOT...   Jul 17 2010, 20:35
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jul 16 2010, 23...   Jul 21 2010, 13:22
- - Alex B   I think the least incorrect way to compare 88.2 KH...   Jul 16 2010, 22:33
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Alex B @ Jul 16 2010, 17:33) I thi...   Jul 16 2010, 23:30
|- - Dologan   QUOTE (Alex B @ Jul 16 2010, 22:33) I thi...   Jul 16 2010, 23:40
- - AndyH-ha   It seems that what I wrote in the first part of my...   Jul 17 2010, 09:55
|- - googlebot   AndyH-ha, that might be on purpose. For two lowpas...   Jul 17 2010, 10:49
- - googlebot   I think the 88.2 vs. downsampled 44.1 test had at ...   Jul 17 2010, 16:39
- - greynol   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jul 17 2010, 12...   Jul 17 2010, 20:48
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 17 2010, 15:48) QUOT...   Jul 17 2010, 23:04
- - AndyH-ha   I also may not know what I'm talking about, bu...   Jul 17 2010, 22:02
- - greynol   The reason for oversampling in old CD players is a...   Jul 17 2010, 22:13
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 17 2010, 17:13) The ...   Jul 17 2010, 23:14
- - greynol   I'm taking issue with what I thought was a bla...   Jul 17 2010, 23:27
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 17 2010, 18:27) I...   Jul 18 2010, 01:52
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jul 17 2010, 17...   Jul 19 2010, 00:56
- - amandinepras   Thanks all for your interest in our paper, I recei...   Jul 19 2010, 00:52
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (amandinepras @ Jul 18 2010, 19:52)...   Jul 19 2010, 03:35
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (amandinepras @ Jul 18 2010, 19:52)...   Jul 19 2010, 11:35
||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jul 19 2010, 11...   Jul 21 2010, 13:20
||- - Kees de Visser   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jul 21 2010, 14:20) QU...   Jul 23 2010, 09:26
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (amandinepras @ Jul 18 2010, 19:52)...   Jul 19 2010, 11:48
||- - googlebot   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jul 19 2010, 12...   Jul 19 2010, 12:19
|||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (googlebot @ Jul 19 2010, 07:19) QU...   Jul 19 2010, 14:33
||- - krabapple   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jul 19 2010, 06...   Jul 19 2010, 14:08
|- - Notat   QUOTE (amandinepras @ Jul 18 2010, 17:52)...   Jul 21 2010, 04:08
|- - hciman77   QUOTE (amandinepras @ Jul 18 2010, 19:52)...   Jul 28 2010, 15:18
- - Pio2001   Thanks for joining the discussion, Amandine. Your...   Jul 19 2010, 12:31
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Jul 19 2010, 12:31) I se...   Jul 21 2010, 13:13
- - googlebot   The study shows at least the intent of objectivity...   Jul 19 2010, 16:28
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (googlebot @ Jul 19 2010, 11:28) [l...   Jul 19 2010, 19:11
|- - Soap   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jul 19 2010, 14...   Jul 19 2010, 20:24
|- - Soap   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jul 19 2010, 14...   Jul 19 2010, 23:07
- - Juha   QUOTE Doesn't anybody else see a problem with ...   Jul 19 2010, 19:25
- - googlebot   The manufacturer's specs for the FF 800. Unwei...   Jul 19 2010, 20:22
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (googlebot @ Jul 19 2010, 15:22) Th...   Jul 19 2010, 21:26
- - Cavaille   Forgive me to interrupt this discussion about the ...   Jul 20 2010, 08:40
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Cavaille @ Jul 20 2010, 03:40) Arn...   Jul 20 2010, 13:13
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jul 20 2010, 08...   Jul 20 2010, 19:30
||- - Pio2001   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jul 20 2010, 20...   Jul 20 2010, 22:36
|||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Jul 20 2010, 17:36) QUOT...   Jul 20 2010, 23:57
||- - C.R.Helmrich   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jul 20 2010, 20...   Jul 20 2010, 22:53
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jul 20 2010, 13...   Jul 21 2010, 13:25
|- - WernerO   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jul 20 2010, 14...   Aug 2 2010, 08:19
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (WernerO @ Aug 2 2010, 03:19) QUOTE...   Aug 2 2010, 11:56
- - Pio2001   The strange thing is that there are ABX results wi...   Jul 21 2010, 12:16
|- - hciman77   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Jul 21 2010, 07:16) The ...   Jul 27 2010, 22:56
- - googlebot   The fact, that the study's authors have regist...   Jul 23 2010, 10:55
|- - Pio2001   QUOTE (googlebot @ Jul 23 2010, 11:55) co...   Jul 24 2010, 13:58
- - krabapple   Sheesh, it's only been four days. They may ac...   Jul 23 2010, 19:20
- - googlebot   In dubio pro reo is generally a good principle. Bu...   Jul 26 2010, 19:43
|- - hciman77   QUOTE (googlebot @ Jul 26 2010, 14:43) In...   Jul 26 2010, 21:05
- - hciman77   I read the full paper and I think there may be som...   Jul 26 2010, 19:48
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (hciman77 @ Jul 26 2010, 14:48) I r...   Jul 27 2010, 13:16
||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jul 27 2010, 13...   Jul 27 2010, 22:45
|- - Pio2001   QUOTE (hciman77 @ Jul 26 2010, 20:48) Thi...   Jul 28 2010, 11:39
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Jul 28 2010, 06:39) QUOT...   Jul 28 2010, 13:52
|- - AndyH-ha   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jul 28 2010, 04...   Jul 28 2010, 22:42
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Jul 28 2010, 17:42...   Jul 29 2010, 13:04
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Jul 28 2010, 22:42...   Jul 29 2010, 22:11
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jul 29 2010, 22:11) bu...   Jul 30 2010, 09:55
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jul 29 2010, 17:11) I ...   Jul 30 2010, 12:26
- - lvqcl   Audition 1.5: 44.1 -> 96 kHz resampling, Qualit...   Jul 30 2010, 11:42
- - C.R.Helmrich   I finally found time to read the entire paper. It...   Aug 9 2010, 21:41
- - 2Bdecided   I think before you pull out one positive result an...   Aug 9 2010, 22:44
|- - C.R.Helmrich   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Aug 9 2010, 23:44) I t...   Aug 10 2010, 01:37
- - Pio2001   I finaly got the article. Actually, they say somet...   Aug 9 2010, 23:33
- - Pio2001   The unknown thing is the origin of the p values. I...   Aug 10 2010, 12:33
- - lrossouw   Did they test for difference (Check if you can tel...   Sep 8 2010, 09:39
- - Mach-X   I am going to loosely quote a well known poster he...   Mar 8 2014, 08:08
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Mach-X @ Mar 8 2014, 03:08) I...   Mar 10 2014, 12:58
- - bandpass   TEAC -- slight COI perhaps? Guessing their method...   Mar 8 2014, 09:06
- - WernerO   Perhaps. Another weakness is their apparent use o...   Mar 11 2014, 08:04
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (WernerO @ Mar 11 2014, 03:04) Perh...   Mar 11 2014, 13:44
||- - Kees de Visser   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Mar 11 2014, 13...   Mar 11 2014, 14:28
|- - C.R.Helmrich   QUOTE (WernerO @ Mar 11 2014, 08:04) Anot...   Mar 11 2014, 23:55
- - Wombat   QUOTE (Kees de Visser @ Mar 11 2014, 14:2...   Mar 11 2014, 15:51
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