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EAC to FLAC, reading the Cuesheet in Foobar, (I know it's not supported..) :)
Recusant
post Sep 27 2010, 02:52
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QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 3 2010, 01:06) *
Another way to restate what dv1989 said is that a new TRACK designation can never come before a new FILE in a compliant sheet.

If there are any gaps (00 indices) other than before the start of the first track, then a CUE sheet for gaps appended to the previous tracks ripped as one track per file will be noncompliant. Appending gaps to the previous track is the standard method of ripping tracks to individual files in all programs; it is also what you get if you use EAC in beginner mode or if you rip prior to detecting gaps. If your disc has gaps between tracks and you want the corresponding cue sheet to be compliant and also retain the gap information, you must either rip to a single-file image, rip with the gaps prepended to the current track (appended to the next track in EAC-speak), or rip with them left out.


When i ripped the two discs, i used the beginner/default settings which i believe to be: Append Gaps to previous track (default) - there's no option to detect gaps (F4) before ripping.

I've generated the cuesheets for Top Gun again, using all three methods (in advanced settings) to compare and i think i'm starting to see what happens. Top Gun produced 3 separate results:

1. Multiple files with gaps (non-compliant) -- didn't work
CODE
REM GENRE Soundtrack
REM DATE 1986
REM DISCID 8509130A
REM COMMENT "ExactAudioCopy v0.99pb5"
PERFORMER "Various"
TITLE "Top Gun"
FILE "01. Kenny Loggins - Danger Zone - Kenny Loggins - Danger Zone.flac" WAVE
TRACK 01 AUDIO
TITLE "Kenny Loggins - Danger Zone"
PERFORMER "Kenny Loggins - Danger Zone"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 02 AUDIO
TITLE "Cheap Trick - Mighty Wings"
PERFORMER "Cheap Trick - Mighty Wings"
INDEX 00 03:31:64
FILE "02. Cheap Trick - Mighty Wings - Cheap Trick - Mighty Wings.flac" WAVE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 03 AUDIO
TITLE "Kenny Loggins - Playing With The Boys"
PERFORMER "Kenny Loggins - Playing With The Boys"
INDEX 00 03:49:28
FILE "03. Kenny Loggins - Playing With The Boys - Kenny Loggins - Playing With The Boys.flac" WAVE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 04 AUDIO
TITLE "Teena Marie - Lead Me On"
PERFORMER "Teena Marie - Lead Me On"
INDEX 00 03:55:58
FILE "04. Teena Marie - Lead Me On - Teena Marie - Lead Me On.flac" WAVE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 05 AUDIO
TITLE "Berlin - Take My Breath Away"
PERFORMER "Berlin - Take My Breath Away"
INDEX 00 03:44:17
FILE "05. Berlin - Take My Breath Away - Berlin - Take My Breath Away.flac" WAVE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "06. Miami Sound Machine - Hot Summer Nights - Miami Sound Machine - Hot Summer Nights.flac" WAVE
TRACK 06 AUDIO
TITLE "Miami Sound Machine - Hot Summer Nights"
PERFORMER "Miami Sound Machine - Hot Summer Nights"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 07 AUDIO
TITLE "Loverboy - Heaven In Your Eyes"
PERFORMER "Loverboy - Heaven In Your Eyes"
INDEX 00 03:36:23
FILE "07. Loverboy - Heaven In Your Eyes - Loverboy - Heaven In Your Eyes.flac" WAVE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 08 AUDIO
TITLE "Larry Greene - Through The Fire"
PERFORMER "Larry Greene - Through The Fire"
INDEX 00 04:03:17
FILE "08. Larry Greene - Through The Fire - Larry Greene - Through The Fire.flac" WAVE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 09 AUDIO
TITLE "Marietta - Destination Unknown"
PERFORMER "Marietta - Destination Unknown"
INDEX 00 03:42:13
FILE "09. Marietta - Destination Unknown - Marietta - Destination Unknown.flac" WAVE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 10 AUDIO
TITLE "Harold Faltermeyer & Steve Stevens - Top Gun Anthem"
PERFORMER "Harold Faltermeyer & Steve Stevens - Top Gun Anthem"
INDEX 00 03:45:33
FILE "10. Harold Faltermeyer & Steve Stevens - Top Gun Anthem - Harold Faltermeyer & Steve Stevens - Top Gun Anthem.flac" WAVE
INDEX 01 00:00:00


2. Multiple files with left out gaps -- worked
CODE
REM GENRE Soundtrack
REM DATE 1986
REM DISCID 8509130A
REM COMMENT "ExactAudioCopy v0.99pb5"
PERFORMER "Various"
TITLE "Top Gun"
FILE "01. Kenny Loggins - Danger Zone - Kenny Loggins - Danger Zone.flac" WAVE
TRACK 01 AUDIO
TITLE "Kenny Loggins - Danger Zone"
PERFORMER "Kenny Loggins - Danger Zone"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "02. Cheap Trick - Mighty Wings - Cheap Trick - Mighty Wings.flac" WAVE
TRACK 02 AUDIO
TITLE "Cheap Trick - Mighty Wings"
PERFORMER "Cheap Trick - Mighty Wings"
PREGAP 00:02:46
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "03. Kenny Loggins - Playing With The Boys - Kenny Loggins - Playing With The Boys.flac" WAVE
TRACK 03 AUDIO
TITLE "Kenny Loggins - Playing With The Boys"
PERFORMER "Kenny Loggins - Playing With The Boys"
PREGAP 00:01:44
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "04. Teena Marie - Lead Me On - Teena Marie - Lead Me On.flac" WAVE
TRACK 04 AUDIO
TITLE "Teena Marie - Lead Me On"
PERFORMER "Teena Marie - Lead Me On"
PREGAP 00:01:00
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "05. Berlin - Take My Breath Away - Berlin - Take My Breath Away.flac" WAVE
TRACK 05 AUDIO
TITLE "Berlin - Take My Breath Away"
PERFORMER "Berlin - Take My Breath Away"
PREGAP 00:01:35
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "06. Miami Sound Machine - Hot Summer Nights - Miami Sound Machine - Hot Summer Nights.flac" WAVE
TRACK 06 AUDIO
TITLE "Miami Sound Machine - Hot Summer Nights"
PERFORMER "Miami Sound Machine - Hot Summer Nights"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "07. Loverboy - Heaven In Your Eyes - Loverboy - Heaven In Your Eyes.flac" WAVE
TRACK 07 AUDIO
TITLE "Loverboy - Heaven In Your Eyes"
PERFORMER "Loverboy - Heaven In Your Eyes"
PREGAP 00:01:72
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "08. Larry Greene - Through The Fire - Larry Greene - Through The Fire.flac" WAVE
TRACK 08 AUDIO
TITLE "Larry Greene - Through The Fire"
PERFORMER "Larry Greene - Through The Fire"
PREGAP 00:00:61
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "09. Marietta - Destination Unknown - Marietta - Destination Unknown.flac" WAVE
TRACK 09 AUDIO
TITLE "Marietta - Destination Unknown"
PERFORMER "Marietta - Destination Unknown"
PREGAP 00:01:37
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "10. Harold Faltermeyer & Steve Stevens - Top Gun Anthem - Harold Faltermeyer & Steve Stevens - Top Gun Anthem.flac" WAVE
TRACK 10 AUDIO
TITLE "Harold Faltermeyer & Steve Stevens - Top Gun Anthem"
PERFORMER "Harold Faltermeyer & Steve Stevens - Top Gun Anthem"
PREGAP 00:01:14
INDEX 01 00:00:00


3. Multiple files with corrected gaps -- didn't work*
CODE
REM GENRE Soundtrack
REM DATE 1986
REM DISCID 8509130A
REM COMMENT "ExactAudioCopy v0.99pb5"
PERFORMER "Various"
TITLE "Top Gun"
FILE "01. Kenny Loggins - Danger Zone - Kenny Loggins - Danger Zone.flac" WAVE
TRACK 01 AUDIO
TITLE "Kenny Loggins - Danger Zone"
PERFORMER "Kenny Loggins - Danger Zone"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "02. Cheap Trick - Mighty Wings - Cheap Trick - Mighty Wings.flac" WAVE
TRACK 02 AUDIO
TITLE "Cheap Trick - Mighty Wings"
PERFORMER "Cheap Trick - Mighty Wings"
INDEX 00 00:00:00
INDEX 01 00:02:46
FILE "03. Kenny Loggins - Playing With The Boys - Kenny Loggins - Playing With The Boys.flac" WAVE
TRACK 03 AUDIO
TITLE "Kenny Loggins - Playing With The Boys"
PERFORMER "Kenny Loggins - Playing With The Boys"
INDEX 00 00:00:00
INDEX 01 00:01:44
FILE "04. Teena Marie - Lead Me On - Teena Marie - Lead Me On.flac" WAVE
TRACK 04 AUDIO
TITLE "Teena Marie - Lead Me On"
PERFORMER "Teena Marie - Lead Me On"
INDEX 00 00:00:00
INDEX 01 00:01:00
FILE "05. Berlin - Take My Breath Away - Berlin - Take My Breath Away.flac" WAVE
TRACK 05 AUDIO
TITLE "Berlin - Take My Breath Away"
PERFORMER "Berlin - Take My Breath Away"
INDEX 00 00:00:00
INDEX 01 00:01:35
FILE "06. Miami Sound Machine - Hot Summer Nights - Miami Sound Machine - Hot Summer Nights.flac" WAVE
TRACK 06 AUDIO
TITLE "Miami Sound Machine - Hot Summer Nights"
PERFORMER "Miami Sound Machine - Hot Summer Nights"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "07. Loverboy - Heaven In Your Eyes - Loverboy - Heaven In Your Eyes.flac" WAVE
TRACK 07 AUDIO
TITLE "Loverboy - Heaven In Your Eyes"
PERFORMER "Loverboy - Heaven In Your Eyes"
INDEX 00 00:00:00
INDEX 01 00:01:72
FILE "08. Larry Greene - Through The Fire - Larry Greene - Through The Fire.flac" WAVE
TRACK 08 AUDIO
TITLE "Larry Greene - Through The Fire"
PERFORMER "Larry Greene - Through The Fire"
INDEX 00 00:00:00
INDEX 01 00:00:61
FILE "09. Marietta - Destination Unknown - Marietta - Destination Unknown.flac" WAVE
TRACK 09 AUDIO
TITLE "Marietta - Destination Unknown"
PERFORMER "Marietta - Destination Unknown"
INDEX 00 00:00:00
INDEX 01 00:01:37
FILE "10. Harold Faltermeyer & Steve Stevens - Top Gun Anthem - Harold Faltermeyer & Steve Stevens - Top Gun Anthem.flac" WAVE
TRACK 10 AUDIO
TITLE "Harold Faltermeyer & Steve Stevens - Top Gun Anthem"
PERFORMER "Harold Faltermeyer & Steve Stevens - Top Gun Anthem"
INDEX 00 00:00:00
INDEX 01 00:01:14


*Worked in Foobar, but CDBurnerXP had this error when i tried to use no.3:
"Index was outside the bounds of the array." So for my purposes it didn't work.

When i did the same for Strictly Techno, using the three available methods, all cue sheets were identical - presumably because there is no gaps in the disc (in the proper sense) so there is nothing for the program to fiddle with.

I know that cuesheets aren't playlists - i'm only using foobar and compliance to help me move into a better understanding of cuesheets now, and to ensure that if i want/need to restore a CD in 10 years time - the normal software will work fine (when EAC is no longer able to work on Windows 10 smile.gif ).


Anyway - the point of this post is: Short of playing the CD on a player to see if the -01 seconds comes up, is there a way to tell if the CD has gaps, can i trust EACs "detect gaps" feature (does it select the appropriate setting)? -- how does one know when to use prepended or left out?

and

Does the actual extraction of the file ever differ, or is that only cue-sheet that differs? It would certainly be quicker to regenerate the correct cuesheet instead of re-ripping everything i've done so far.
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mjb2006
post Sep 27 2010, 06:40
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The index out of bounds error is a generic problem in that burning program, and probably has nothing to do with the kind of indexes we're talking about; it's just a coincidence.

Anyway, realize that the style of the cue sheet is not just the style of the sheet, it's the style of the files that the cue sheet is for. If you only ripped the CD once, in beginner mode, then the gaps are at the end of each file. Cue sheets for gaps-left-out files or for 'corrected' (prepended) gap-containing files might 'work', but that's more of an accident.

QUOTE (Recusant @ Sep 26 2010, 19:52) *
Short of playing the CD on a player to see if the -01 seconds comes up, is there a way to tell if the CD has gaps


Not really. Track boundaries are stored in the disc's TOC. Gap/index info is stored in the disc's subcode. You need a program which reads the disc's subcode, and AFAIK only rippers even attempt it. But not all ripping software has subcode-reading features, and some disc & drive combos just won't work (I have some CDs I simply can't get any subcode info from, or the subcode reading fails on the last track). Subcode has its own offset (I've only seen one program which detects it), and sometimes you'll get different results when scanning the same disc (gap & index positions can be a sector off, from read to read).

QUOTE (Recusant @ Sep 26 2010, 19:52) *
can i trust EACs "detect gaps" feature (does it select the appropriate setting)? -- how does one know when to use prepended or left out?


You still seem to be not understanding something. You really never need to use "detect gaps". EAC will do that automatically when it needs gap info in a cue sheet or when doing an index-based rip. The choice of what setting to use at rip time is for what kind of audio files you're creating. Do you want them to have the gaps at the beginning, the end, or not at all? If a cue sheet is being created at the same time, it'll be made to match. If you're generating the cue sheet separately, you need to choose the kind that matches the files you've got. If you did a gaps-appended rip, you need to generate that kind of cue sheet.

This post has been edited by mjb2006: Sep 27 2010, 06:44
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greynol
post Sep 27 2010, 08:26
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QUOTE (mjb2006 @ Sep 26 2010, 22:40) *
You really never need to use "detect gaps".

This is only needed if you wish to rip with gaps placed at the beginning of the current track, rip with gaps left out, rip individual indices, or perform a range rip and need to know the 00 index locations. Some people wish to detect gaps beforehand so that they will appear in a log file. If you do choose to detect gaps prior to ripping, make sure you verify that they are handled the way you like by reviewing the information at the bottom of the Action menu in EAC. What is selected here should determine which type of CUE sheet you choose. If you tell EAC to create a CUE sheet based on Current Gaps Settings then it will create the correct one (provided you didn't change it after you ripped your tracks).

If you do not detect gaps, just tell EAC to create a Multiple WAV Files With Gaps (Noncompliant) sheet.


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greynol
post Sep 27 2010, 09:12
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QUOTE (Recusant @ Sep 26 2010, 18:52) *
2. Multiple files with left out gaps -- worked
Once you realize that EAC adds additional silence between tracks wherever there's a PREGAP line, I'm thinking you'll change your conclusion.

QUOTE (Recusant @ Sep 26 2010, 18:52) *
When i did the same for Strictly Techno, using the three available methods, all cue sheets were identical - presumably because there is no gaps in the disc (in the proper sense) so there is nothing for the program to fiddle with.
This is correct.

QUOTE (Recusant @ Sep 26 2010, 18:52) *
how does one know when to use prepended or left out?
It is purely a matter of your personal preference. Leave them out and you might lose the ability to create a proper replica of the audio data.

QUOTE (Recusant @ Sep 26 2010, 18:52) *
Does the actual extraction of the file ever differ, or is that only cue-sheet that differs? It would certainly be quicker to regenerate the correct cuesheet instead of re-ripping everything i've done so far.
While your question really doesn't make any sense, I think I get the gist of what you're getting at. So long as you didn't detect gaps before ripping or made sure that gaps were appended to the previous track, then you can create a noncompliant sheet well after the fact without having to re-rip. If you did something else with the gaps then you're taking your chances that the next time gaps are detected they will be the same as when you originally ripped the disc. If you detect gaps with a different drive or method, there's a good chance that they won't come out the same way, in which case you won't be able recreate a proper replica of the audio data. I suppose it's also possible to get different results even with the same drive, especially if the gap detection accuracy level is set to inaccurate. This isn't exactly something that I've gone out of my way to test, however.

If you can't get a noncompliant CUE sheet to work in some program other than EAC then convert it to a compliant one or simply find some other method to do whatever it is that you want to do that doesn't involve a CUE sheet. If you absolutely must use a CUE sheet and want to be able to use it with a larger selection of programs then rip as a single-file image.

This post has been edited by greynol: Sep 27 2010, 09:19


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Recusant
post Sep 28 2010, 08:19
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You know, after all this messing around i've finally figured some stuff out.

When i ripped two CDs recently using the same settings - one resulted in a compliant cuesheet and the other did not. They were in the same box-set and my old understanding was that they were both gapless (continuous music rather than the 'true' definition of gapless).

I noticed that one of the discs had a 0.01 second 'gap' on one of the tracks. This was enough to produce the non-compliant sheet. This was where my earliest confusion came from. "Why on earth is it doing this" i kept thinking. The basic settings hide that gap info so i never saw it.

I've also figured it out (with your help) that if i rip the CD with appending gap to the end of the track that i can create a cuesheet that is compliant using CueTools if i really want to, or just burn the files because the 'gap' is built into the file. It just doesn't matter that it's not truly 100% identical to the source disc because it is essentially a backup. I don't care about the -02 intermission being displayed as such on the rare occasion i will create a CD from the FLACs.

I'd like to thank everyone here for the roundabout discussion smile.gif
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greynol
post Sep 28 2010, 08:31
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Here's an old post that I think may be worth reviewing...
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=555384

This post has been edited by greynol: Sep 28 2010, 08:31


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Recusant
post Sep 30 2010, 12:42
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Now, why would this happen?

Note the screen shot showing the gap information:



Rip 1 i did a month ago. I just used the basic settings and let EAC do it's thing.
CODE
REM GENRE Techno
REM DATE 1995
REM DISCID 9D0DB90B
REM COMMENT "ExactAudioCopy v0.99pb5"
PERFORMER "Scooter"
TITLE "...And The Beat Goes On!"
FILE "01. Scooter - Different Reality.flac" WAVE
TRACK 01 AUDIO
TITLE "Different Reality"
PERFORMER "Scooter"
PREGAP 00:00:32
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "02. Scooter - Move Your Ass!.flac" WAVE
TRACK 02 AUDIO
TITLE "Move Your Ass!"
PERFORMER "Scooter"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "03. Scooter - Waiting For Spring.flac" WAVE
TRACK 03 AUDIO
TITLE "Waiting For Spring"
PERFORMER "Scooter"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "04. Scooter - Endless Summer.flac" WAVE
TRACK 04 AUDIO
TITLE "Endless Summer"
PERFORMER "Scooter"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "05. Scooter - Cosmos.flac" WAVE
TRACK 05 AUDIO
TITLE "Cosmos"
PERFORMER "Scooter"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "06. Scooter - Rhapsody In E.flac" WAVE
TRACK 06 AUDIO
TITLE "Rhapsody In E"
PERFORMER "Scooter"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "07. Scooter - Hyper Hyper.flac" WAVE
TRACK 07 AUDIO
TITLE "Hyper Hyper"
PERFORMER "Scooter"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "08. Scooter - Raving In Mexico.flac" WAVE
TRACK 08 AUDIO
TITLE "Raving In Mexico"
PERFORMER "Scooter"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "09. Scooter - Beautiful Vibes.flac" WAVE
TRACK 09 AUDIO
TITLE "Beautiful Vibes"
PERFORMER "Scooter"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "10. Scooter - Friends.flac" WAVE
TRACK 10 AUDIO
TITLE "Friends"
PERFORMER "Scooter"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "11. Scooter - Faster Harder Scooter.flac" WAVE
TRACK 11 AUDIO
TITLE "Faster Harder Scooter"
PERFORMER "Scooter"
INDEX 01 00:00:00


Should this not have seen the gaps and produced a non-compliant sheet? (like below)

Rip two - just done today. I asked it to append the gap to the previous track because i was suspicious about the previous rip:
CODE
REM GENRE Techno
REM DATE 1995
REM DISCID 9D0DB90B
REM COMMENT "ExactAudioCopy v0.99pb5"
PERFORMER "Scooter"
TITLE "...And The Beat Goes On!"
FILE "01. Scooter - Different Reality.wav" WAVE
TRACK 01 AUDIO
TITLE "Different Reality"
PERFORMER "Scooter"
PREGAP 00:00:32
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "02. Scooter - Move Your Ass!.wav" WAVE
TRACK 02 AUDIO
TITLE "Move Your Ass!"
PERFORMER "Scooter"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 03 AUDIO
TITLE "Waiting For Spring"
PERFORMER "Scooter"
INDEX 00 05:38:67
FILE "03. Scooter - Waiting For Spring.wav" WAVE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 04 AUDIO
TITLE "Endless Summer"
PERFORMER "Scooter"
INDEX 00 04:28:06
FILE "04. Scooter - Endless Summer.wav" WAVE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 05 AUDIO
TITLE "Cosmos"
PERFORMER "Scooter"
INDEX 00 04:03:74
FILE "05. Scooter - Cosmos.wav" WAVE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 06 AUDIO
TITLE "Rhapsody In E"
PERFORMER "Scooter"
INDEX 00 06:07:57
FILE "06. Scooter - Rhapsody In E.wav" WAVE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "07. Scooter - Hyper Hyper.wav" WAVE
TRACK 07 AUDIO
TITLE "Hyper Hyper"
PERFORMER "Scooter"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 08 AUDIO
TITLE "Raving In Mexico"
PERFORMER "Scooter"
INDEX 00 05:00:21
FILE "08. Scooter - Raving In Mexico.wav" WAVE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 09 AUDIO
TITLE "Beautiful Vibes"
PERFORMER "Scooter"
INDEX 00 06:04:74
FILE "09. Scooter - Beautiful Vibes.wav" WAVE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 10 AUDIO
TITLE "Friends"
PERFORMER "Scooter"
INDEX 00 05:12:74
FILE "10. Scooter - Friends.wav" WAVE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 11 AUDIO
TITLE "Faster Harder Scooter"
PERFORMER "Scooter"
INDEX 00 05:09:74
FILE "11. Scooter - Faster Harder Scooter.wav" WAVE
INDEX 01 00:00:00


The second one is what i would have expected to see.

Is 0:00:00.01 too short for EAC to worry in the basic settings and it just creates a compliant sheet? The file sizes are slightly different. I read somewhere that Foobar can compare files (bit by bit) but i don't see that option in the menus.

(i'm not sure if i should start a new thread - if you think i should please let me know).
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greynol
post Sep 30 2010, 17:38
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EAC does not ignore gaps regardless of how small. You got different results in gap detection between then and now, probably because you used a different drive, but I suppose this doesn't necessarily have to be the case.

If gaps were appended to the previous track then the file sizes are not slightly different; they are exactly the same.

Between what has already been discussed in this discussion and the others linked and still others that you have read, there should be nothing revelatory about this current post of mine.


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Recusant
post Oct 1 2010, 11:14
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It's unlikely that a different drive was used as only one of my drives supports some of EACs features, so apart from the first test - i've only ever used one drive.

I wonder what did it and why. Odd.

Both rips were told to append to the previous track. One used detection, the other didn't:

Gap handling : Not detected, thus appended to previous track
vs
Gap handling : Appended to previous track

You're right though, a double-check of the files says they're the same size.
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