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New releases on 2LPs
doctorcilantro
post Sep 7 2010, 14:28
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For the most, I find new recordings released on vinyl to be hotter than something issued from the 70s.

I'm curious about two things:

Does this imply compression is being used, or that they are just generally pressing a hotter signal?

And why do many of these modern releases get issued on 2 LPs (at 33rpm) with 10 minutes per side? Would this wholly support or refute the above question - or just further confuse the issue.
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Knowzy
post Sep 7 2010, 19:37
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QUOTE (doctorcilantro @ Sep 7 2010, 06:28) *
And why do many of these modern releases get issued on 2 LPs (at 33rpm) with 10 minutes per side?

I think the length of the album is the primary reason modern releases take up 2 LPs.

With the advent of CD, albums are now longer, 60 - 70 minutes IME. A single LP offers ~45 minutes of play.

Looking at the three modern releases (all double albums) I've used in my sampling:
  • Black Eyed Peas, Monkey Business: 66 mins.
  • Michael Franti and Spearhead, All Rebel Rockers: 64 mins.
  • Gorillaz, Demon Days: 51 mins.

The latter two albums are recorded hot for certain (that's why they are such great test records). But their length alone forces them onto two LPs.

That said, two LPs gives the mastering engineer more physical space for the grooves, allowing for recording hot and compression.
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db1989
post Sep 7 2010, 20:11
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QUOTE
That said, two LPs gives the mastering engineer more physical space for the grooves, allowing for recording hot and compression.
I think that's entirely what the the OP was asking about. You quoted, but missed, this:
QUOTE
And why do many of these modern releases get issued on 2 LPs (at 33rpm) with 10 minutes per side?
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greynol
post Sep 7 2010, 20:17
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Increased bass response will also require greater space between groves, thus shortening the duration of a side, correct?

Isn't there a limit to what can be done to prevent the needle from jumping?

This post has been edited by greynol: Sep 7 2010, 20:18


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doctorcilantro
post Sep 7 2010, 20:19
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QUOTE (dv1989 @ Sep 7 2010, 21:11) *
QUOTE
That said, two LPs gives the mastering engineer more physical space for the grooves, allowing for recording hot and compression.
I think that's entirely what the the OP was asking about. You quoted, but missed, this:
QUOTE
And why do many of these modern releases get issued on 2 LPs (at 33rpm) with 10 minutes per side?



Ray Lamontagne's new album is about 10 minutes per side; interestingly the total length is 44:32. IIRC, there is a lot of space for more grooves that they didn't use. I was looking online at a Feist album and a single LP cost $34 !!

I read about another recent album with side4 blank.

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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Sep 7 2010, 21:45
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QUOTE (Knowzy @ Sep 7 2010, 14:37) *
That said, two LPs gives the mastering engineer more physical space for the grooves, allowing for recording hot and compression.


Two LPs gives a means to hike the price.
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pdq
post Sep 7 2010, 22:43
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QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 7 2010, 15:17) *
Increased bass response will also require greater space between groves, thus shortening the duration of a side, correct?

Isn't there a limit to what can be done to prevent the needle from jumping?

Loud bass requires large groove amplitude, but the velocity and acceleration are still relatively low so I think the needle can still track it OK.
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Axon
post Sep 7 2010, 23:47
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It's critically important here to distinguish between cuts which simply have a larger pitch width - ie, 10 minutes of audio going from the outer groove to the inner groove - versus cuts with a normal pitch width but only cover the outermost grooves. The possible justifications for the former are increased SNR, a reduced need to compress bass levels, etc. The only real justification for the latter is trying to avoid inner groove distoriton. AFAIK, instances of both currently exist.
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RonaldDumsfeld
post Sep 9 2010, 11:24
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Interesting thread. Thx. Now that I think about it I don't understand the technicalities either.

There have always been at least 2 common 12" vinyl formats. The traditional not more than 20 minutes a side commercial albums and a the not more than 10 minutes a side single or EP nominally designed for promotional and club play.

The most obvious difference is in volume. 12" singles are louder for any given gain setting, particularly those set to run at 45rpm instead of 33rpm.

I haven't done a study (TOSrisk) but as someone who has collected over 3000 12" vinyls over the last 30 years I feel the fidelity quality is usually superior. Deeper and fuller bass especially. Also a lower chance of audible surface noise.

Quite how they manage this technically i don't understand. Looks like todays google job.
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doctorcilantro
post Sep 9 2010, 15:49
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QUOTE (RonaldDumsfeld @ Sep 9 2010, 12:24) *
Interesting thread. Thx. Now that I think about it I don't understand the technicalities either.

There have always been at least 2 common 12" vinyl formats. The traditional not more than 20 minutes a side commercial albums and a the not more than 10 minutes a side single or EP nominally designed for promotional and club play.

The most obvious difference is in volume. 12" singles are louder for any given gain setting, particularly those set to run at 45rpm instead of 33rpm.

I haven't done a study (TOSrisk) but as someone who has collected over 3000 12" vinyls over the last 30 years I feel the fidelity quality is usually superior. Deeper and fuller bass especially. Also a lower chance of audible surface noise.

Quite how they manage this technically i don't understand. Looks like todays google job.


I'll have to peek at some of my 12" later. Do they typically run from outer to inner grooves, or do they "end early" with a big gap between the last groove and the label?
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2Bdecided
post Sep 9 2010, 16:04
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QUOTE (doctorcilantro @ Sep 9 2010, 15:49) *
I'll have to peek at some of my 12" later. Do they typically run from outer to inner grooves, or do they "end early" with a big gap between the last groove and the label?
Both is/was common.

Sometimes the inter-groove gap is larger than it needs to be for no other reason than to make the disc look more "full" - and this increases inner groove distortion.

45rpm vs 33rpm certainly helps. cutting as loud as possible without distortion certainly helps.

DRC (not brick will clipping, just heavy DRC) can be used to increase the perceived loudness on LP like any other medium - but rather like FM radio, taking the emphasis curve (and hence the energy limits at each frequency) into account will help this process to get the "most" loudness out of the medium.


All this really mattered... before we had CDs.

Cheers,
David.
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RonaldDumsfeld
post Sep 10 2010, 01:56
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QUOTE
Do they typically run from outer to inner grooves, or do they "end early" with a big gap between the last groove and the label?


All the examples I have use up the outer space first. Sometimes they end early. Others times there are more tracks or a longer edit so it ends up more or less where a full album finishes but only contains about half as much music.

The really desperate ones are single sided and 45rpm. These are quite handy as you can use the blank side to set up your cartridge correctly.

At one time it was fairly standard for club orientated vinyl to keep the tracks on the same side separate but now they usuually run together the same as an album. A have several examples where the track plays from the inside out and seen a DJ party trick where you play a record backwards by putting a thimble over the centre of the turntable, turning the cartridge upside down and then readjusting the balance. On the fly. You can do that with 1210s.


Jeff Mills, Mad Mike Banks & Rob Hood as Underground Resistance once made an EP called Rings of Saturn which had the both the gaps and the length of the tunes in proportion to the real rings of Saturn. I think Jeff Mills was also the first person to put out a locked groove (without a click!!) in 1994.

Whatever the technical merits digital CD or MP3 media may or may not be it is still true that most music played out will be sourced from vinyl. Don't really know why but it seems to work.
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StephenPG
post Sep 10 2010, 20:58
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What happened to Direct Metal Mastering?

I have quite a few, all classical, but one or two have a little over 40 minutes a side.

This post has been edited by StephenPG: Sep 10 2010, 20:58
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