Dynamic range question, Dynamic range of hearing vs. equipment |
Dynamic range question, Dynamic range of hearing vs. equipment |
Jun 8 2011, 01:16
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#1
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Group: Members Posts: 138 Joined: 26-February 11 Member No.: 88533 |
Hi All,
I am having problems understanding the concept of dynamic range, and more specific how the dynamic range of human hearing relates to the dynamic range as specified for audio equipment. What I have read on the Net is that the dynamic range of human hearing is, on average, 135 dB (the pain limit / threshold?). I also understand that the dynamic range of a CD (16 bit) is limited to 96 dB, and for HD (24 bit) recordings 144 dB. This dynamic range is calculated by the bit-depth. For playback of music (I use 44.1/16 flac only) I use a E-MU 1820 that has a dynamic range of about 115 dB (or so). I am not sure what my amp can do... However, when I play music I hardly pass 80 dB (or so) listening volume, so the 96 dB CD data (if the recording makes full use of the range that is) gets "compressed", while the relative dynamic range remains. After the long intro my question in essence is: Does the human hearing have a similar "resolution" that is comparable to the resolution defined by the bit-depth in (digital) audio? Or am I just comparing apples and pears? Regards, Peter |
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Jun 14 2011, 08:15
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#2
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![]() Group: Members Posts: 455 Joined: 16-December 01 Member No.: 664 |
I think this relation 1bit to 6.02dB is where some all-too-common misconceptions rely on. The most notorious: the digital-loathing audiophile who thinks than he can hear the "switching of the bits"... you know, those harsh digital steps in a PCM waveform who completely ruin the smooth analogue siginal.
So, if someone really wants to explain digital audio to the layman without proper mathematical knowledge, I think it would be best to start by debunking this very misconception, explaining why there isn't such a thing as an arbitrary step size in digital audio and how the dynamic range is limited by quantization noise. Anyone interested in writing such an explanation? I think it could save hundreds of souls from ignorance... he or she would gain some Karma! This post has been edited by Northpack: Jun 14 2011, 08:21 |
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Jun 14 2011, 09:13
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#3
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Group: Members Posts: 514 Joined: 1-November 06 Member No.: 37047 |
I think this relation 1bit to 6.02dB is where some all-too-common misconceptions rely on. The most notorious: the digital-loathing audiophile who thinks than he can hear the "switching of the bits"... you know, those harsh digital steps in a PCM waveform who completely ruin the smooth analogue siginal. So, if someone really wants to explain digital audio to the layman without proper mathematical knowledge, I think it would be best to start by debunking this very misconception, explaining why there isn't such a thing as an arbitrary step size in digital audio and how the dynamic range is limited by quantization noise. Anyone interested in writing such an explanation? I think it could save hundreds of souls from ignorance... he or she would gain some Karma! Properly dithered digital behaves similar to analog systems where the noise floor is (best case) about 6*#bits below the maximum signal. For CD (16 bits) this works out to be about 96dB, or 2^16 or 65536:1. For hirez formats using 24 bits, this would ideally mean 144 dB, but in practice man cannot make AD and DA-converters of such high precision. When doing proper level-aligned blind testing, somewhere around 14-16 bits seems to*) be enough for all sound playback applications. More resolution mainly buys you peace of mind. -k *)Blind tests cannot prove that any resolution is "high enough" for all applications, but it repeatedly failing to prove it is often considered a convicing indication. This post has been edited by knutinh: Jun 14 2011, 09:14 |
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thesurfingalien Dynamic range question Jun 8 2011, 01:16
Canar QUOTE (thesurfingalien @ Jun 7 2011, 17:1... Jun 8 2011, 01:44
pdq ...and with proper dither the dynamic range of 16 ... Jun 8 2011, 01:51
Woodinville In most any modern room, the lower limit of maskin... Jun 8 2011, 02:28
knutinh Given that background noise can have all kinds of ... Jun 8 2011, 09:20
Woodinville QUOTE (knutinh @ Jun 8 2011, 01:20) Given... Jun 8 2011, 09:30
knutinh QUOTE (Woodinville @ Jun 8 2011, 10:30) Y... Jun 8 2011, 10:15
saratoga QUOTE (knutinh @ Jun 8 2011, 05:15) QUOTE... Jun 8 2011, 19:15
Woodinville QUOTE (saratoga @ Jun 8 2011, 11:15) The ... Jun 8 2011, 19:38
saratoga QUOTE (Woodinville @ Jun 8 2011, 14:38) Q... Jun 8 2011, 20:58
Woodinville QUOTE (saratoga @ Jun 8 2011, 12:58) QUOT... Jun 9 2011, 02:02
MichaelW QUOTE (Woodinville @ Jun 9 2011, 13:02) A... Jun 9 2011, 04:42
WernerO QUOTE (MichaelW @ Jun 9 2011, 04:42) when... Jun 9 2011, 10:12
thesurfingalien QUOTE (MichaelW @ Jun 9 2011, 00:42) QUOT... Jun 9 2011, 13:02
DonP For listening to high dynamic range material (say,... Jun 8 2011, 10:50
knutinh QUOTE (DonP @ Jun 8 2011, 11:50) For list... Jun 8 2011, 11:19
thesurfingalien @All:
Thanks so far for your replies, but it... Jun 8 2011, 12:29
knutinh QUOTE (thesurfingalien @ Jun 8 2011, 13:2... Jun 8 2011, 13:37
drewfx QUOTE (thesurfingalien @ Jun 8 2011, 06:2... Jun 8 2011, 17:05
[JAZ] Like others have said, the key is knowing that tal... Jun 8 2011, 19:04
DonP QUOTE ([JAZ] @ Jun 8 2011, 13:04)... Jun 9 2011, 00:17
DVDdoug QUOTE The second question is if there is any relat... Jun 8 2011, 19:37
Northpack I guess room noise usually has the least amount of... Jun 8 2011, 20:15
knutinh QUOTE (Northpack @ Jun 8 2011, 21:15) I g... Jun 8 2011, 20:49
greynol Let's not forget dBu and dBV. Jun 9 2011, 00:32
drewfx And to further clarify the use of "dB" v... Jun 9 2011, 02:17
knutinh I seem to remember that people who record ambient ... Jun 10 2011, 10:31
Kees de Visser Absolutely ! Last year I've spent quite so... Jun 10 2011, 22:18
Arnold B. Krueger QUOTE (knutinh @ Jun 10 2011, 05:31) I se... Jun 16 2011, 13:05
thesurfingalien @All,
Although all info was useful and interestin... Jun 11 2011, 10:59
lvqcl QUOTE (thesurfingalien @ Jun 11 2011, 13... Jun 11 2011, 11:11

thesurfingalien QUOTE (lvqcl @ Jun 11 2011, 07:11) QUOTE ... Jun 11 2011, 14:11

lvqcl QUOTE (thesurfingalien @ Jun 11 2011, 17... Jun 11 2011, 14:19

thesurfingalien QUOTE (lvqcl @ Jun 11 2011, 10:19) QUOTE ... Jun 11 2011, 15:37

lvqcl QUOTE (thesurfingalien @ Jun 11 2011, 18... Jun 11 2011, 18:34

DonP QUOTE (lvqcl @ Jun 11 2011, 12:34) QUOTE ... Jun 11 2011, 19:21
drewfx QUOTE (thesurfingalien @ Jun 11 2011, 04... Jun 11 2011, 17:33
Notat QUOTE (thesurfingalien @ Jun 11 2011, 03... Jun 12 2011, 18:10
dhromed QUOTE (Northpack @ Jun 14 2011, 09:15) An... Jun 14 2011, 11:01
dv1989 1 bit represents 6 dB of amplitude (i.e. a doublin... Jun 11 2011, 17:37
Brand I must admit I have the same questions as the OP r... Jun 12 2011, 22:11
DonP QUOTE (Brand @ Jun 12 2011, 16:11) I must... Jun 12 2011, 22:38
lvqcl QUOTE (Brand @ Jun 13 2011, 01:11) I... Jun 12 2011, 22:47
Brand QUOTE (lvqcl @ Jun 12 2011, 23:47) QUOTE ... Jun 13 2011, 10:25
lvqcl QUOTE (Brand @ Jun 13 2011, 13:25) Is the... Jun 13 2011, 10:51
DonP QUOTE (Brand @ Jun 13 2011, 04:25) QUOTE ... Jun 13 2011, 12:13
Soap QUOTE (DonP @ Jun 13 2011, 07:13) I'm... Jun 13 2011, 13:02
Fedot L QUOTE (Brand @ Jun 13 2011, 09:25) ...I t... Jun 14 2011, 10:43
DVDdoug QUOTE Given that (for CD) the 16 bit depth is limi... Jun 13 2011, 21:52
Northpack QUOTE (knutinh @ Jun 14 2011, 09:13) Prop... Jun 14 2011, 11:00
knutinh QUOTE (Northpack @ Jun 14 2011, 12:00) QU... Jun 14 2011, 11:12
dc2bluelight Very interesting discussion. I'd like to add ... Jun 17 2011, 09:58
Arnold B. Krueger QUOTE (dc2bluelight @ Jun 17 2011, 04:58)... Jun 17 2011, 14:20
pdq Very nice first post. Thanks. Jun 17 2011, 13:21
Arnold B. Krueger QUOTE (pdq @ Jun 17 2011, 08:21) Very nic... Jun 17 2011, 14:02
dc2bluelight QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jun 17 2011, 08... Jun 18 2011, 00:53
knutinh QUOTE (dc2bluelight @ Jun 18 2011, 01:53)... Jun 18 2011, 09:31
Arnold B. Krueger QUOTE (dc2bluelight @ Jun 17 2011, 19:53)... Jun 18 2011, 18:58
Notat QUOTE (dc2bluelight @ Jun 17 2011, 17:53)... Jun 19 2011, 01:21
dc2bluelight Wow. You guys are tough here. Jun 17 2011, 16:40
Woodinville Just so it's clear, the 30dB number applies fo... Jun 18 2011, 04:32
dc2bluelight Yes, that clears it up. Critical band masking wou... Jun 18 2011, 07:17
thesurfingalien @All,
I am ashamed to tell that, although the dis... Jun 18 2011, 21:04
knutinh QUOTE (thesurfingalien @ Jun 18 2011, 22... Jun 18 2011, 21:40
lvqcl QUOTE (thesurfingalien @ Jun 19 2011, 00... Jun 18 2011, 21:45
Arnold B. Krueger QUOTE (thesurfingalien @ Jun 18 2011, 16... Jun 19 2011, 11:44
drewfx QUOTE (thesurfingalien @ Jun 18 2011, 15... Jun 19 2011, 18:56
WernerO QUOTE (thesurfingalien @ Jun 18 2011, 21... Jun 20 2011, 11:33
dhromed QUOTE (WernerO @ Jun 20 2011, 12:33) You ... Jun 20 2011, 20:34

Notat QUOTE (dhromed @ Jun 20 2011, 13:34) I... Jun 20 2011, 22:58
Woodinville QUOTE (WernerO @ Jun 20 2011, 03:33) QUOT... Jun 20 2011, 20:58
Wombat QUOTE (Woodinville @ Jun 18 2011, 04:32) ... Jun 19 2011, 00:55
Woodinville QUOTE (Wombat @ Jun 18 2011, 16:55) QUOTE... Jun 20 2011, 02:43
Soap I belive the problem thesurfingalien is having is ... Jun 19 2011, 20:01
DigitalMan @Soap - agree we've not given thesurfingalien ... Jun 20 2011, 02:59
Soap What I was going to say (please correct me where w... Jun 20 2011, 03:45
DonP This will probably add confusion to those already ... Jun 20 2011, 14:48
Woodinville QUOTE (DonP @ Jun 20 2011, 06:48) This wi... Jun 20 2011, 21:04
DonP QUOTE (Woodinville @ Jun 20 2011, 15:04) ... Jun 21 2011, 02:18
Woodinville QUOTE (DonP @ Jun 20 2011, 18:18) QUOTE (... Jun 21 2011, 03:49
DonP QUOTE (Woodinville @ Jun 20 2011, 21:49) ... Jun 21 2011, 12:01
Woodinville QUOTE (DonP @ Jun 21 2011, 04:01) QUOTE (... Jun 21 2011, 22:48
dhromed QUOTE (DonP @ Jun 20 2011, 15:48) It turn... Jun 20 2011, 20:41
Wombat QUOTE (Woodinville @ Jun 20 2011, 02:43) ... Jun 20 2011, 21:21
Woodinville QUOTE (Wombat @ Jun 20 2011, 13:21) So pl... Jun 20 2011, 22:02![]() ![]() |
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