CD audio is not good enough, CD Standard is bad quality |
CD audio is not good enough, CD Standard is bad quality |
May 1 2003, 04:29
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#1
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![]() Group: Members (Donating) Posts: 107 Joined: 7-April 03 From: Sacramento, CA Member No.: 5871 |
Sound quality is a complex subject, and one that has been thrashed
out elsewhere time after time. Nonetheless I'll give it a bit of a spin here, without getting all technical, in order to justify why I think CD audio is not good enough. When I complain about CD sound I am not doing so as some sort of retrograde vinyl lover who can't change with the times. :-) I am simply saying that the sound of the CD I am listening to has audible problems and does not match what I expect the creators wanted. This can be measured by how closely the CD replicates the master. Of course in most cases I don't get to hear the master, so much is guesswork. However, as a trained audio engineer I have *some* idea of what is expected and can certainly compare CDs to the masters I produce. CDs improved on vinyl in many ways, notably in reduced noise floor, phase artifacts, and crosstalk; ease of handling; and accurate handling of low frequency stereo information. But CDs are inferior to vinyl in frequency response and degradation characteristics. If a CD gets a scratch you hear unlistenable white noise; if a record gets a scratch you hear a DJ. ;-) Going further, some may "prefer" the sound of vinyl precisely because of the distortions it introduces. These include rounded signal peaks and second-order harmonics, as well as the aforementioned phase issues. All of these introduce a "warm" sound that is palatable to many. Whether I like that sound or not, I prefer to hear what the artist intended. If they wanted harmonics they could have used a tube. And so on. A bit more is in order about error correction. Most errors are corrected by CD players, but this can produce tiny glitches of noise that most people do not notice. I notice them. It's not that I have better ears; once I point them out you can hear them as well. Of course, the better the music reproduction system the more noticable these are. (Though contrary to this, the better the CD player error correction, the less you'll hear.) For most people with crappy stereos it's not an issue. I do not think that there is anything inherently wrong with digital sound encoding, only that the 44.1KHz sampling rate and 16 bits per sample are not good enough. Currently, studios use 96KHz and 24 (or 32) bits throughout the recording chain process, and must reduce this down to consumer standards for replication. There's probably a good reason why those people most highly trained in listening don't think CD quality is good enough for recording. It's simply because their ears tell them so. You may be interested to know that the current CD standard was a matter of much compromise between the American, European, and Japanese manufacturers. I can remember reading some of the research articles at the time (I was in university). The Japanese insisted that 100KHz and 24-bit (if memory serves on the exact numbers) were required for accurate reproduction. But the others argued that no-one would hear the difference and it would reduce cost and time to market if the lower standard was adopted. And so, unfortunately, it was. Another big problem with many CDs is the terrible job of mastering. Back in vinyl days you really had to know what you were doing to adjust the master tape to the deficiencies of the medium. There were relatively few mastering engineers, but they knew their job. Today almost anyone thinks they can master, and so they do... badly. So the problems with CD can be summarised as: insufficient frequency response, insufficient resolution, poor mastering, nasty error characteritics, and cases that break all the time. ;-) MP3s inherit all of these except the bit about the cases. -- robin |
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May 1 2003, 10:51
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#2
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![]() ReplayGain developer Group: Developer Posts: 4587 Joined: 5-November 01 From: Yorkshire, UK Member No.: 409 |
Whilst I'm a fan of higher sample rates (in theory - I don't use them at home though! and I'm not going to start the discussion again), I don't buy your arguments about error correction.
Whilst it's easy to find poor condition (or poorly pressed) CDs with errors, and it's easy to find poor players whose transports are not working well and read errors from good discs; it's also easy to find discs and players which work together without finding a single uncorrectable error over the whole disc. Before my time there, a project was tried at my old university where hardware was set-up to find these "uncorrectable errors" - i.e. the ones that result in the signal being approximated. They found that they were exceptionally rare on undamaged discs. It was not unusual to find entire discs with no such errors. Likewise, during the mp3 decoder tests I performed, I did a lot of 1x digital copying - using a CD player to play the CD I'd just burnt, and a bit-perfect soundcard to record the result via SP-DIF. These were burnt CD-Rs, not pressed CDs, so more problems may be expected. The CD player was an old Sony (reportedly the first CD player with a digital output - it had been imported from a 110V country because a european model didn't appear until later). I admit that any 1-bit (LSB) errors would have been missed in this test - but any error correction with an accuracy of worse than 1 part in 32768 would have been picked up. It didn't happen at all during the tests. There are some mysteries of certain CDs and certain CD players not "liking each other", and I couldn't comment on how many players or discs constantly operate near the point of failure. In these circumstances, you could well be right! But for many discs, and many players, I doubt that the "reconstructive" error correction kicks very often at all. Cheers, David. |
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Joseph CD audio is not good enough May 1 2003, 04:29
bryant You're absolutely right!! Those CD cas... May 1 2003, 04:48
boojum Joseph, in general I agree with your post. But th... May 1 2003, 04:57
mrosscook Joseph,
Your post argues that a lot of current CD... May 1 2003, 05:16
paranoos I have to agree completely with your statement abo... May 1 2003, 05:18
floyd QUOTE (Joseph @ Apr 30 2003 - 09:29 PM)Curren... May 1 2003, 05:43
Delirium I'm pretty sure you're, frankly, incorrect... May 1 2003, 06:14
sjk QUOTE (paranoos @ Apr 30 2003 - 08:18 PM)I ha... May 1 2003, 06:34
AstralStorm QUOTE (Delirium @ May 1 2003 - 07:14 AM)To co... May 1 2003, 07:32
dev0 I agree with Paranoos here completely. If masterin... May 1 2003, 11:01
Uosdwis R. Dewoh The CD standard is often taking an unfair amount o... May 1 2003, 12:44
DonP I believe the 16/44 rates are the numbers that fel... May 1 2003, 14:32
Joseph paranoos wrote:
> I have to agree completely w... May 1 2003, 16:32
DigitalMan QUOTE (Joseph @ May 1 2003 - 07:32 AM)paranoo... May 1 2003, 18:06
KikeG Well, all there issues have been discussed here fr... May 1 2003, 20:28
Pio2001 Joseph wrote :
QUOTE CDs are inferior to
vinyl in... May 1 2003, 21:22
buzzy One of the great things about HA is that discussio... May 1 2003, 22:33
Uosdwis R. Dewoh QUOTE (Joseph @ May 1 2003 - 04:32 PM)> Al... May 1 2003, 22:41
KikeG QUOTE (Pio2001 @ May 1 2003 - 09:22 PM)What... May 2 2003, 00:21
Pio2001 About audible clicks, I must say that many recordi... May 2 2003, 01:12
DonP QUOTE (Pio2001 @ May 1 2003 - 03:22 PM)Actual... May 2 2003, 01:17
Joseph DigitalMan wrote
> 1) Nyquist does not require... May 2 2003, 06:54
Miles QUOTE (Joseph @ May 1 2003 - 05:29 AM)... you... May 2 2003, 08:21
2Bdecided QUOTE (Pio2001 @ May 1 2003 - 08:22 PM)2bdeci... May 2 2003, 10:02
2Bdecided QUOTE (Joseph @ May 2 2003 - 05:54 AM)Nyquist... May 2 2003, 10:34
Pio2001 QUOTE (Joseph @ May 2 2003 - 08:54 AM)It depe... May 2 2003, 11:41
mrosscook Joseph, you end your last post by saying,
QUOTE B... May 2 2003, 16:18
DonP QUOTE (Pio2001 @ May 2 2003 - 05:41 AM)That... May 2 2003, 16:43
bryant QUOTE (mrosscook @ May 2 2003 - 07:18 AM)Base... May 2 2003, 18:34
DigitalMan QUOTE (Joseph @ May 1 2003 - 09:54 PM)Joseph ... May 2 2003, 18:35
KikeG QUOTE (Joseph @ May 2 2003 - 06:54 AM)Nyquist... May 2 2003, 18:58![]() ![]() |
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