CD audio is not good enough, CD Standard is bad quality |
CD audio is not good enough, CD Standard is bad quality |
May 1 2003, 04:29
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#1
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![]() Group: Members (Donating) Posts: 107 Joined: 7-April 03 From: Sacramento, CA Member No.: 5871 |
Sound quality is a complex subject, and one that has been thrashed
out elsewhere time after time. Nonetheless I'll give it a bit of a spin here, without getting all technical, in order to justify why I think CD audio is not good enough. When I complain about CD sound I am not doing so as some sort of retrograde vinyl lover who can't change with the times. :-) I am simply saying that the sound of the CD I am listening to has audible problems and does not match what I expect the creators wanted. This can be measured by how closely the CD replicates the master. Of course in most cases I don't get to hear the master, so much is guesswork. However, as a trained audio engineer I have *some* idea of what is expected and can certainly compare CDs to the masters I produce. CDs improved on vinyl in many ways, notably in reduced noise floor, phase artifacts, and crosstalk; ease of handling; and accurate handling of low frequency stereo information. But CDs are inferior to vinyl in frequency response and degradation characteristics. If a CD gets a scratch you hear unlistenable white noise; if a record gets a scratch you hear a DJ. ;-) Going further, some may "prefer" the sound of vinyl precisely because of the distortions it introduces. These include rounded signal peaks and second-order harmonics, as well as the aforementioned phase issues. All of these introduce a "warm" sound that is palatable to many. Whether I like that sound or not, I prefer to hear what the artist intended. If they wanted harmonics they could have used a tube. And so on. A bit more is in order about error correction. Most errors are corrected by CD players, but this can produce tiny glitches of noise that most people do not notice. I notice them. It's not that I have better ears; once I point them out you can hear them as well. Of course, the better the music reproduction system the more noticable these are. (Though contrary to this, the better the CD player error correction, the less you'll hear.) For most people with crappy stereos it's not an issue. I do not think that there is anything inherently wrong with digital sound encoding, only that the 44.1KHz sampling rate and 16 bits per sample are not good enough. Currently, studios use 96KHz and 24 (or 32) bits throughout the recording chain process, and must reduce this down to consumer standards for replication. There's probably a good reason why those people most highly trained in listening don't think CD quality is good enough for recording. It's simply because their ears tell them so. You may be interested to know that the current CD standard was a matter of much compromise between the American, European, and Japanese manufacturers. I can remember reading some of the research articles at the time (I was in university). The Japanese insisted that 100KHz and 24-bit (if memory serves on the exact numbers) were required for accurate reproduction. But the others argued that no-one would hear the difference and it would reduce cost and time to market if the lower standard was adopted. And so, unfortunately, it was. Another big problem with many CDs is the terrible job of mastering. Back in vinyl days you really had to know what you were doing to adjust the master tape to the deficiencies of the medium. There were relatively few mastering engineers, but they knew their job. Today almost anyone thinks they can master, and so they do... badly. So the problems with CD can be summarised as: insufficient frequency response, insufficient resolution, poor mastering, nasty error characteritics, and cases that break all the time. ;-) MP3s inherit all of these except the bit about the cases. -- robin |
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May 1 2003, 16:32
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#2
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![]() Group: Members (Donating) Posts: 107 Joined: 7-April 03 From: Sacramento, CA Member No.: 5871 |
paranoos wrote:
> I have to agree completely with your statement about poor mastering > engineers in the field. The sad part is that a lot of the time, these > mastering 'flaws' are completely intentional. Indeed, extremely "loud" music is all the rage. Since the ear typically responds to average levels, not peak levels, when judging loudness, all the mastering engineer has to do is raise the average level as high as possible in the available dynamic range. To do so inevitably "introduces unnecessary amounts of clipping" as you say. Thankfully this rarely happens to any music worth hearing in the first place -- LOL! > I believe that 44,100 Hz, 16 bit audio is more than adequate to > represent music, even with very high-end equipment. Each aspect (frequency > and resolution) can be deemed 'sufficient' by using these benchmarks of > human hearing, and the nature of the recording studio. Untrue, as I will show. This is not a matter of belief, but science. > Generally speaking, humans can perceive frequencies around 20kHz. The Nyquist numbers are pure theory and do not take into account implementation. For example, Nyquist requires a perfect low-pass filter for the digital-to-analogue conversion. Well, such a thing does not exist! Real filters are not perfect, but rather introduce frequency, aliasing, and phase anomolies. Though techniques like oversampling can help, a sampling rate of 96KHz is the perfect solution, as it puts all of these distortions above the range of human hearing. > I have also heard that 16bit resolution has a noise floor lower than that of > a silent, empty recording studio. If this is true (sorry, I don't have hard > evidence) then it is proof that 16bit is more than enough. It is not true. The range of sounds from absolutely quiet (achieved only in an anechoic chamber) to hearing damage is 150dB. A more reasonable range to reproduce (from a recording studio to a loud concert) is 130dB. 16-bit recordings reproduce a dynamic range of only 96dB, whereas 24-bit recordings reproduce 120dB. 16-bit looks rather limiting, doesn't it? Here's another view: in music we want to listen to (not the overcompressed crap) the peaks are much higher than the average volume. In order to provide room for these peaks, most of the musical information must be restricted to about half of the available bits. It follows that to avoid compromising the signal, we need a lot more dynamic range than 16-bit provides. > So, why do recording engineers use higher frequency, higher resolution > digital audio than the rest of us peons? Can they hear better than us? They are trained to hear better than us, yes. > During the production phase, it is decided that we should raise the volume > of the bass guitar recording in order to give a more 'rich and funky' sound. > > What is the result? Noise, noise, distortion, and more noise. I do not follow. As long as you have sufficient dynamic range to work in, why should raising the volume result in distortion? BTW, a good funk sound is not achieved by raising volume, but rather by adding a goodly amount of fast-attack compression, and a nice EQ emphasis for the finger pop to get a nice string resonance. Or at least that's how I'd do it. ;-) (It's also got a lot to do with the playing, of course.) > 24/96 is used in the > recording studio as a buffer... the noise floor of 12 tracks recorded in > 24bits is still lower than 1 track in 16 bits, so it still sounds good. Perhaps what you are trying to say is that summing 2 signals requires one either drop the levels 3dB to achieve the same perceived loudness, or have 3dB dynamic range available for the increased signal level. So certainly the more bits the better during mixing. And yes, this is more critical than in the final mix. But it hardly follows that fewer bits are ok for listening. > I have heard that it is a common misconception that the louder source sounds > better than the quiet source, even though they are identical once you match > volumes. They are not identical once you match perceived loudness, which I think is what you are saying. The compressed signals will have very little information above the mean, whereas the uncompressed signal will have lots. Plus, the compressed signal will have all sorts of clipping distortion. Just about anyone will actually prefer the uncompressed signal, as it will sound "livelier" and more dynamic. People like dynamics -- it provides interest and doesn't tire the ears. But if you match the *peaks* instead, then the compressed signal will sound louder. And we naturally like the louder of two signals, all other factors being equal. The louder song will jump out of the radio and sell more copies. This is the raison d'etre of maximum compression. The argument for extreme compression is a simplistic one that assumes dumb listeners, an assumption I for one am not willing to make. > Albums released today are so loud that they are clipping CD > audio... reaching the limit of 16bit. A 24bit medium provides a greater > dynamic range, and thus louder recordings. This is by no means why there is a move to higher bit depth, since an extremely compressed song at any bit depth will sound the same. All the lower bits are essentially unused no matter how many of them there are. > And to address your thoughts on dirt and scratches on various media... if an > LP is dusty, you will find noticeable static noise coming out of your > speakers. If the records are old and warped, they will sounds wobbly, and > will likely skip -- as will a scratched LP. Any little imperfection in the > record is instantly audible. Any decent turntable can play any decently maintained vinyl record with an almost complete lack of background noise. Heck, even my mid- range Linn does a fine job. Traditional comments like these about bad vinyl quality come from people who have never heard a decent hi-fi in the first place. > CDs are obviously digital recordings ... to the > CD player, that means "no matter what I read, it's supposed to be either a 1 > or a 0" ... introduce reading noise into a digital wave, and you still get a > digital wave -- the player can still read the original sound through all the > noise, because it can assume what is supposed to be read. Wow, this is so wrong. If I am trying to read 10010011101001 and there is a scratch and I get 10000000000000 then how exactly am I supposed to recover the original? True, Red Book audio uses interpolation to add redundancy to the signal, but a big enough scratch and all is lost. > Granted, a heavily > scratched CD will skip, or even refuse to play... but you can usually have > very visible marks on your CD and still have them play perfectly. As an aside, you can also have invisible "marks" and have it play badly. > Also, imperfect error correction in CD players won't introduce 'noise' > into the result Um, yes it will. It is clearly audible. > ... at worst, it will read a 0 instead of a 1, which will result in a > tiny pop that lasts about 1/(16 x 44100) of a second. Your brain cannot > perceive this. Not even if there are thousands of them in a row? There are other problems with CD reproduction as well, like jitter and single-bit distortion. The great thing about 96/24 recording is that many of the challenges of 44/16 go away. There is no need for dither, brick-wall filters, etc. Reproduction equipment can actually be simpler and yet achieve sonic excellence. |
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Joseph CD audio is not good enough May 1 2003, 04:29
bryant You're absolutely right!! Those CD cas... May 1 2003, 04:48
boojum Joseph, in general I agree with your post. But th... May 1 2003, 04:57
mrosscook Joseph,
Your post argues that a lot of current CD... May 1 2003, 05:16
paranoos I have to agree completely with your statement abo... May 1 2003, 05:18
floyd QUOTE (Joseph @ Apr 30 2003 - 09:29 PM)Curren... May 1 2003, 05:43
Delirium I'm pretty sure you're, frankly, incorrect... May 1 2003, 06:14
sjk QUOTE (paranoos @ Apr 30 2003 - 08:18 PM)I ha... May 1 2003, 06:34
AstralStorm QUOTE (Delirium @ May 1 2003 - 07:14 AM)To co... May 1 2003, 07:32
2Bdecided Whilst I'm a fan of higher sample rates (in th... May 1 2003, 10:51
dev0 I agree with Paranoos here completely. If masterin... May 1 2003, 11:01
Uosdwis R. Dewoh The CD standard is often taking an unfair amount o... May 1 2003, 12:44
DonP I believe the 16/44 rates are the numbers that fel... May 1 2003, 14:32
DigitalMan QUOTE (Joseph @ May 1 2003 - 07:32 AM)paranoo... May 1 2003, 18:06
KikeG Well, all there issues have been discussed here fr... May 1 2003, 20:28
Pio2001 Joseph wrote :
QUOTE CDs are inferior to
vinyl in... May 1 2003, 21:22
buzzy One of the great things about HA is that discussio... May 1 2003, 22:33
Uosdwis R. Dewoh QUOTE (Joseph @ May 1 2003 - 04:32 PM)> Al... May 1 2003, 22:41
KikeG QUOTE (Pio2001 @ May 1 2003 - 09:22 PM)What... May 2 2003, 00:21
Pio2001 About audible clicks, I must say that many recordi... May 2 2003, 01:12
DonP QUOTE (Pio2001 @ May 1 2003 - 03:22 PM)Actual... May 2 2003, 01:17
Joseph DigitalMan wrote
> 1) Nyquist does not require... May 2 2003, 06:54
Miles QUOTE (Joseph @ May 1 2003 - 05:29 AM)... you... May 2 2003, 08:21
2Bdecided QUOTE (Pio2001 @ May 1 2003 - 08:22 PM)2bdeci... May 2 2003, 10:02
2Bdecided QUOTE (Joseph @ May 2 2003 - 05:54 AM)Nyquist... May 2 2003, 10:34
Pio2001 QUOTE (Joseph @ May 2 2003 - 08:54 AM)It depe... May 2 2003, 11:41
mrosscook Joseph, you end your last post by saying,
QUOTE B... May 2 2003, 16:18
DonP QUOTE (Pio2001 @ May 2 2003 - 05:41 AM)That... May 2 2003, 16:43
bryant QUOTE (mrosscook @ May 2 2003 - 07:18 AM)Base... May 2 2003, 18:34
DigitalMan QUOTE (Joseph @ May 1 2003 - 09:54 PM)Joseph ... May 2 2003, 18:35
KikeG QUOTE (Joseph @ May 2 2003 - 06:54 AM)Nyquist... May 2 2003, 18:58![]() ![]() |
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