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Using Headphone with Digital Output
Tall-Guy
post Nov 16 2011, 23:44
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Hey guys,

I could use some help:
My LCD Headphones Jack (3.5) is making a lot of static noise. This is a known issue with this specific TV module. I did find few posts however, that mentioned this 'static' voice is not present if your using the Digital Output.

I was doing some google reading, and If I got it right, I need a DAC. Someone also mentioned the TV Volume does not handle the Digital Output volume, so I also need a DAC with built-in volume support.

My options are as follow:

1. I can get a cheap DAC with Volume Built in. However, I couldn't find anything decent on Ebay. Most of the 'Cheap' DACs coming without volume controller. I have a pretty decent head phones (http://www.dansdata.com/hfi550.htm), and the only down side of this setup is the fact I will probably have to walk to the DAC (its about 4 meters from the TV) everything I want to change the volume a bit.

2. Buy a simple Optical Headphones. Does something like that even exists?

3. Waste some money and pick one of those fancy DTS Headphones

I will probably prefer to get on the cheapest option at the moment - But I would love to hear some comments about gear recommendation, So I'll know what is the price range of each of the above solutions plus/minus.

and maybe people have extra idea I didn't think off...

Thanks :-)
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DVDdoug
post Nov 17 2011, 02:11
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QUOTE
My LCD Headphones Jack (3.5)
I assume you are using headphones?

I'm not sure what you're finding in the way of DACs, but a home theater receiver might be cheaper. You should be able to find one for under $200 USD. A couple of years ago, I picked-up a 5.1 channel Sherwood "on sale" for about $100. Make sure the receiver (or DAC) has a digital input to match your TV's output (optical S/PDIF, coax S/PDIF, or HDMI).

Are there RCA audio outputs? Does the volume control adjust those outputs? If the RCA outputs are less-noisy, you can use an analog headphone amplifier. Behringer makes a low-cost headhone amp (~$25 USD).

QUOTE
My LCD Headphones Jack (3.5) is making a lot of static noise.
Here's something else that might help -

If you normaly have the volume control at a low setting and if the static does not increase when you increase the volume setting, you can crank-up the volume (signal) for a better signal-to-noise ratio. Then, you can use a headphone amplifier (with a volume control) as an attenuator to bring down the signal and noise together (maintaining the improved signal-to-noise ratio). Your remote control will still work to bring the volume down. Or, Koss makes a little inline headphone volume control that would accomplish the same thing.

This post has been edited by DVDdoug: Nov 17 2011, 02:28
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Tall-Guy
post Nov 17 2011, 09:44
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Thing is, I just spend tons of $$$ on the new TV, and I don't have the money to invest the money in a receiver at the moment (everything is quite more expensive in my country). The reason I was thinking about DAC, is because you can buy those stand-alone DACs. For example:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-Optical-...=item3cb999b0c6

Only problem it doesn't comes with Volume Controller, and I'm worried that another device in line like the Koss below just going to add more issues. Something like this cheap DAC and an integrated volume controller might do the trick.

Sadly I don't have RCA Out, only in.

The attenuator idea sounds interesting. Let me know if I got this straight:
First, I need to connect my headphones to the TV Set, Crank up the volume and listen if the static noise becomes less noticeable. If it doesn, I can buy this Koss Volume Controller, set my TV Volume quite high - but Lower it on the Koss Voluem, that way i'll have less static?

Thanks
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probedb
post Nov 17 2011, 11:39
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Maybe something like this http://www.fiio.com.cn/product/index.aspx?...p;MenuID=020302 ? With their E3 as an amp would work?
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Tall-Guy
post Nov 17 2011, 12:05
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QUOTE (probedb @ Nov 17 2011, 12:39) *
Maybe something like this http://www.fiio.com.cn/product/index.aspx?...p;MenuID=020302 ? With their E3 as an amp would work?


It means I will have an Optical Cable running from my TV to the DAC, another one from the DAC to the Amp (and I will probably need an RCA to 3.5 Jack convertor also), and from the AMP to the Headphones. Wouldn't all those connections just hurt the sound more?

They have a DAC with pre-build vol amp http://www.fiio.com.cn/product/index.aspx?...p;MenuID=020302, but I only have cox in and I need optical :\
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Tall-Guy
post Nov 17 2011, 12:48
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Ermm, I'm using the Audio mostly for Playing and Movies. Does this seems to be OK:
http://www.turtlebeach.com/products/audio-...-force-dss.aspx

How does 5.1 to 7.1 conversion works to stereo?

They say:
"With the Ear Force DSS, video game and movie fans will be able to hear distinct audio events happening all around them, greatly enhancing the overall experience and rewarding gamers with a newfound competitive edge. DSS users playing games and watching movies on their game consoles will actually hear the 7.1 surround sound from certain 5.1 channel audio tracks via additional “hidden” channels called Dolby EX"

How can you hear 5.1 channel tracks via stereo headphones?
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probedb
post Nov 17 2011, 13:43
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QUOTE (Tall-Guy @ Nov 17 2011, 11:05) *
QUOTE (probedb @ Nov 17 2011, 12:39) *
Maybe something like this http://www.fiio.com.cn/product/index.aspx?...p;MenuID=020302 ? With their E3 as an amp would work?


It means I will have an Optical Cable running from my TV to the DAC, another one from the DAC to the Amp (and I will probably need an RCA to 3.5 Jack convertor also), and from the AMP to the Headphones. Wouldn't all those connections just hurt the sound more?

They have a DAC with pre-build vol amp http://www.fiio.com.cn/product/index.aspx?...p;MenuID=020302, but I only have cox in and I need optical :\


Not really. The only extra one you'll have is from the DAC to the amp.
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Tall-Guy
post Nov 17 2011, 14:11
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I'm a bit confused. I was always sure Analog connection will only have enough bandwidth for Stereo? Based on what Turtle Beach mentioning:

"DSS users playing games and watching movies on their game consoles will actually hear the 7.1 surround sound from certain 5.1 channel audio tracks via additional “hidden” channels called Dolby EX."

It seems like Analog connection can also pass 7.1 surround? Does you need a special headphones for that? I checked information about my headphones - and they mentioned they can do a decent surround. It's 5.1 I'm guessing? are those extra channels even notice-able on headphones?

http://www.dansdata.com/hfi550.htm


This post has been edited by Tall-Guy: Nov 17 2011, 14:17
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DVDdoug
post Nov 17 2011, 20:53
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QUOTE
The attenuator idea sounds interesting. Let me know if I got this straight:
First, I need to connect my headphones to the TV Set, Crank up the volume and listen if the static noise becomes less noticeable. If it doesn, I can buy this Koss Volume Controller, set my TV Volume quite high - but Lower it on the Koss Volume, that way i'll have less static?
Right... It might actually be easier to turn the volume down to check if the noise is still there. If the noise is constant regardless of the TV's volume setting, you can turn-up the volume and drown-out the noise (better signal-to-noise ratio) . Then when you turn-down the volume with the external attenuator, the noise & signal go down together and the noise is less noticeable.

QUOTE
How does 5.1 to 7.1 conversion works to stereo?
Most DVDs & Blu-Rays have an optional 2-channel stereo soundtrack (which is often Pro Logic encoded). That track is usually optimized for stereo so it's usually the best choice if you are playing-back on a stereo system.

If you are connected to the stereo output of a DVD/Blu-Ray player (or your TV) and you select a 5.1 (or 7.1) track from the menu, it is "mixed down" to stereo. That is, the center & rear channels are mixed-with the left & right front channels and sent to the stereo speakers so the sound in these channels is not lost. (The LFE is not mixed-down and is lost.) The level at which the center & rear channels is mixed-in is determined by a setting programmed onto the disc.

QUOTE
It seems like Analog connection can also pass 7.1 surround?
If you have a 7.1 channel soundcard it will have 8 analog outputs (four 2-channel output-jacks). If you've got a stereo set-up, you are only going to get 2 channels.

With the "old" Dolby Pro-Logic, the center & rear channel information is matrix-encoded into two analog channels and the decoder "steers" the signal to the appropriate speakers(s). Of course, with a stereo set-up you are getting all of the sound, but you are not getting Pro Logic decoding or surround sound. Pro Logic works pretty well, but unlike true 5.1 digital, you can't have 5 different sounds coming from 5 different directions at the same time. The 2 extra channels in 7.1 Dolby EX are also matrix-encoded.

QUOTE
How can you hear 5.1 channel tracks via stereo headphones?

Does you need a special headphones for that?
Well... There are "5.1" channel headphones with multiple drivers and 3 connector-plugs. And, there is Dolby Headphone (on some playback systems) which attempts to give you a surround effect with regular headphones. But the problem is, one of the ways we locate sound-direction is by moving our heads around. And with headphones, the sound-source moves when you move your head.

This post has been edited by DVDdoug: Nov 17 2011, 21:09
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Tall-Guy
post Nov 17 2011, 22:05
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Thanks for the detailed reply :-)

Well, I was checking the noise. I'm not sure 'Static' is the right word for it. It's not always presented - It's only presented when something is being played. Its more like a Crackling-Static thing. It seems to be the same with the Volume up :-(

Well, my Playstation uses HDMI for sound, and Wii normal RCA. So if I understand you right, the Wii will be using Stereo it doesn't have digital output. Question is - does HDMI pass 5.1/7.1 output? or do I need dedicated optical cable for that?

On my example, the DAC going to do the Digital to Analog Re-Encoding. Does it work like you explained below (DVD/Blueray)? Does expensive DACs will be a better jobs then EBay's DAC cheap DACs? or is it standard conversion?

Also, based on what you said - 5.1 and 7.1 will only add more information to the Left and Right Speakers, but the 'Depth' effect (things behind you for example) will anyway wont be notice-able to head phones? If so - why does my headphones (http://www.dansdata.com/hfi550.htm) claim they are 'surround' headphones? only because the speakers are good enough to make you hear those extra 5.1/7.1 details?

Thanks!
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DVDdoug
post Nov 18 2011, 00:03
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QUOTE
Question is - does HDMI pass 5.1/7.1 output? or do I need dedicated optical cable for that?
Yes, HDMI can pass multichannel audio. It actually has more bandwidth so it can pass uncompressed digital surround (from Blu-Ray), whereas S/PDIF only passes compressed Dolby AC3 or DTS surround (or uncompressed stereo). (HDMI also transmits video.)

QUOTE
On my example, the DAC going to do the Digital to Analog Re-Encoding. Does it work like you explained below (DVD/Blueray)? Does expensive DACs will be a better jobs then EBay's DAC cheap DACs? or is it standard conversion?
I don't know what you are going to find on eBay, but I'd guess you are unlikely to hear a difference. If you do hear a difference, it's likely to be your favorite subject... noise! The parts are cheap, but most stand-alone DACs are manufactured & sold in small quantities. And, they are well built into expensive metal boxes, etc. This adds greatly to the cost. Higher resolution DACS (i.e. 192kHz/24 bits) are slightly more expensive to build. In addition, DACs are mainly marketed to audiophiles, and in that market a high-price invokes an impression of quality, making the product more desireable. biggrin.gif

I don't know if all DACs support mixdown. But if the DAC supports Dolby Digital, I would assume mixdown is a requirement.

QUOTE
If so - why does my headphones (http://www.dansdata.com/hfi550.htm) claim they are 'surround' headphones?
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see that claim. I don't see that claim on the manufacturer's website either.

When he says "surround", I think he's talking about where the sound seems to come from (all around). With headphones, some people get an impression of a soundstage in front of them, some people get an impression that the sound is coming from inside their head. I think this depends on the listener as much as the headphones.




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Tall-Guy
post Nov 18 2011, 01:08
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I did some test. It seems like the more 'channels' I have, the louder the 'Hissing' is on the headphones. on Hdmi is pretty much notice-able all the time. On RCA, It happens once in a while, but less noticeable.

Here is an example for "Ebay" DAC:
http://www.dealextreme.com/p/digital-to-an...converter-73589

Does http://www.turtlebeach.com/products/audio-...-force-dss.aspx is basically a fancy marketing for DAC? or are they actually doing something extra with processing?

Also, When I take the volume of the TV up until 2-3 (out of 100), I think I can hardly hear the cracking. On the other hand, I can hardly hear the sound, so it might be it :-)
I couldn't find a DAC with a volume controller sadly, so I will need an amp anyways. I'll buy the koss amp mentioned above. I might be able to set my tv volume to 1, and turn volume with the amp alone. Should it be strong enough?
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Tall-Guy
post Nov 18 2011, 01:36
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I can probably pick those also:
http://www.dealextreme.com/p/fiio-d3-digit...converter-66303
FiiO has a good name around. One of the reviewers mentioned it only decode PCM. Does it means it's will loss all the extra 5.1/7.1 details coming from the optical input?


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DVDdoug
post Nov 18 2011, 01:41
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QUOTE
Who knows? I don't see a brand name. It doesn't say anything about Dolby decoding, and I assume your TV puts-out Dolby AC3 from the optical output. I'd say anything from eBay is a risk, but I'm not going to tell you not to take the risk, because sometimes a gamble can pay-off! wink.gif

QUOTE
Does http://www.turtlebeach.com/products/audio-...-force-dss.aspx is basically a fancy marketing for DAC? or are they actually doing something extra with processing]
That should solve your noise problem. Turtle beach is a reputable company. "Ear Force" looks similar to Dolby Headphone, but I guess they didn't want to license the technology from Dolby... Or, maybe they just think they can do it better? I don't have Dolby Headphone, but some people say it's good.

This post has been edited by DVDdoug: Nov 18 2011, 01:42
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andy o
post Nov 18 2011, 04:17
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That Turtle Beach processor is using Dolby Headphone. I have a similar processor (JVC SU-DH1) and it's one of my favorite gadgets I've ever bought. I'm a DH fan. I wouldn't connect it to the TV though, unless it can pass through the Dolby Digital-encoded SPDIF signal directly from the PS3 or DVD player or whatever else, so it can process the whole 5.1 channels. It works with pretty much any headphone.
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Tall-Guy
post Nov 18 2011, 11:20
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So it seems my options are as follow:

Options 1:
Buying a simple PCM DAC (http://www.dealextreme.com/p/fiio-d3-digital-to-analog-audio-converter-66303) along with head phones Amp (http://www.dealextreme.com/p/fiio-e5-3-5mm-earphone-volume-booster-power-amplifier-black-18350) and connect those to the TV.

Pros:
Cheapest Solution

Cons:
Only supports PCM
Lossing Extra Channels Data

Questions:
I noticed you can set the Audio for PCM 2 on the Playstation 3 (this is by the way create less static noise on the 3.5 Jack). However, how do I know if other electronic devices (like Wii for example) uses PCM? is this a standard Stereo?

Options 2:
Buying a DAC that uses 'Dolby Headphones' technology, which basically takes the extra channels and combine them into Stereo. My options are the Beam Turtle (http://www.turtlebeach.com/products/audio-processors/ear-force-dss.aspx)

Pros:
More information being heard (5.1/7.1)
No need for Volume Amp (as this have a volume knob in it)

Cons:
More Expensive
Some bad reports about it. For example: http://reviews.cnet.com/amplifiers-preamps...7-34138646.html

Questions:
1. Is this 'Dolby Headphones' is a standard? everyone uses it and just pays Dolby? or on this case beach turtle tried to make their own (and lesser 'dolby headphone')?
2. You mentioned you won't connect it to the TV Set, Why? If the PS3 is connecting using HDMI to the TV, the Optical Cable from the TV will use the same information isnt it? I'm guess it wont work with Digital cable as they only do streo. But what will happen if I connect the Wii which have RCA cable to the TV. Can the Dolby Headphones handled 2 channels like it can with 5 or 7.1?

Thanks!
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Tall-Guy
post Nov 18 2011, 12:08
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That's answering one of the questions:
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/consumer/produc...-force-dss.html

Turtle Beach is indeed using Dolby Headphones.
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probedb
post Nov 18 2011, 12:24
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QUOTE (Tall-Guy @ Nov 18 2011, 00:36) *
I can probably pick those also:
http://www.dealextreme.com/p/fiio-d3-digit...converter-66303
FiiO has a good name around. One of the reviewers mentioned it only decode PCM. Does it means it's will loss all the extra 5.1/7.1 details coming from the optical input?


This is what I suggested in my first post. It'll depend what your TV passes over it's optical output. If the TV decodes and only outputs PCM then you're ok but some can't do this.

I guess this is where a cheap, second-hand AVR comes in, it'll decode everything and have a headphone output.
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Tall-Guy
post Nov 18 2011, 13:16
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Well, on my TV set I can choose Digital Audio to be PCM or 'auto'. I'm guessing Auto would be 5.1/7.1?
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andy o
post Nov 19 2011, 02:10
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You'll have to check with your TV's manual. It could mean that if it detects a Dolby Digital stream, it will just pass it through.

I'd take some of those "reviews" of Dolby Headphone equipment with a huge grain of salt. Half of them that I've read over the years don't even seem to know how DH is supposed to work, or to set it up. They just give it a quick try and either like it, or not.

Dolby Headphone is Dolby's headphone virtualizing standard. DTS has DTS Surround Sensation, which IME can be just as good. Everything else I've tried (Creative's CMSS 3D, SRS headphone, Pioneer's, and C-media's) are not nearly close. All hardware with DH should sound the same (there are 3 DH modes though, some processors offer only one, some all three). Dolby ProLogic II is a totally different thing, and it can be applied in combination of DH, but it's not necessary.

This post has been edited by andy o: Nov 19 2011, 02:15
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Tall-Guy
post Nov 19 2011, 12:55
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I checked the manual, and according to it:

"When Dolby Digital is available, selecting Auto in the Digital Audio Out menu will set SPDIF(Sony
Philips Digital InterFace) output to Dolby Digital. If Auto is selected in the digital audio out menu when Dolby Digital is not available, SPDIF output will
be PCM(Pulse-code modulation). Even if both Dolby Digital and Audio language have been set in a channel which broadcast Dolby
Digital Audio, only Dolby Digital will be played"

Sound be fine then right?

So DTS have Dolby Headphones AND DTS Surround Sensation? Both are different (and according to you Sensation doing a better job?).

Well, in Amazon - the Beach Turtle DSS costs 60$.
A normal DAC costs 30$, however - correct me if I wrong. If I recall correctly, the TV Volume does not control the Optical Output Volume, so I will need an extra amp for it (another 20-25$). So the price range is not that big..

By the way, according to this:
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/consumer/produc...-force-dss.html
It also uses Dolby ProLogic II. You mentioned it above, what is it excetly?


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andy o
post Nov 20 2011, 22:31
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Dolby Headphone is Dolby's thing. DTS has Surround Sensation Headphone. Both are similar, but DH is easier to get.

The Turtle Beach has its own volume control, which you will have to use. Depending on your TV, it could control the volume of the optical output, but only when it's outputting stereo PCM. When it's outputting Dolby Digital, you'll have to do it with the Turtle Beach or DAC.

Sorry, I only mentioned Pro Logic II cause I thought you mentioned it, but it was DVDdoug. DPLII takes stereo audio and converts it to 5.1. Dolby Headphone many times gets kinda confused with it, in the sense that people (many reviewers) expect it to convert audio to "surround" and then virtualize it. If you only feed stereo into Dolby Headphone, it will only virtualize two speakers in front of you. If you feed it 5.1, it will virtualize 5 full-size speakers. If you want stereo expanded to 5.1, and then virtualize it with Dolby Headphone, you'll have to apply DPLII first, which was what Dolby intended in the first place. Most DH processors have DPLII capabilities too.

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Tall-Guy
post Nov 21 2011, 01:12
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I see. That cleared up my mind then :-)

So, rule of a thumb - TVs can not control the volume of Dolby Digital or DTS (Optical Output). However, some TV can control optical Cable Volume if it's over PCM. Since simple DAC like I'm planing to do can only decode PCM, I will have to set my TV Digital Audio settings to PCM. Does this grantee I'll be able to control the Volume with my TV? Where can I check if my TV can control the PCM volume? (Couldn't find anything on my manual).

Well, it goes down to 30$ for just Stereo PCM vs around 75-80$ for a Virtualized surround system.
I think I posted my headphones here somewhere (http://www.dansdata.com/hfi550.htm), but based on your experience (and if you tested all the below hardware you do seem to be experienced :-)). Is the extra 40$ is worth it? Am I'm going to hear any difference with my headphones? or I would need better headphones to fully enjoy it?

And as a side note:
I noticed a lot of people using Amps even if the TV supports Volume up and Down (like this for example - http://www.dealextreme.com/p/fiio-e6-porta...plifier-102124). Any reason for that? Does Amp helps output more quality?
Thank you!

This post has been edited by Tall-Guy: Nov 21 2011, 01:14
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andy o
post Nov 21 2011, 05:39
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The DAC and the DH processor are really different options. Strictly speaking, the DH processor is a DAC that offers Dolby Headphone, so it's "better" in that sense. You can just turn off DH and use it as a regular DAC. So, choose it if you actually want DH, which I really like BTW, but you'll have to see for yourself if you like it. For DVD or blu-ray movies, I find it indispensable if using headphones. Works great for multichannel games on the PS3 too. You don't need better headphones, btw, any normal headphones would do well.
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musicreo
post Nov 21 2011, 11:49
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QUOTE (Tall-Guy @ Nov 21 2011, 01:12) *
Is the extra 40$ is worth it? Am I'm going to hear any difference with my headphones? or I would need better headphones to fully enjoy it?


You can test Dolby Headphone with foobar2000 and Power DVD and decide if you like it.
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