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Why Continue MP3 Development Given AAC?
izscors
post Dec 16 2011, 18:10
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Please don't take this the wrong way, but I am curious why there is continued development of MP3 encoding (such as LAME) when AAC is now long-known to yield superior quality for a given bit-rate (all other things being equal)?

I can sort of understand an explanation as being for the heck of it, but given that a superior method exists, why not work on improving even that instead? I'm not technolgically sophisticated enough to comment with any authority at all, so I pose the question.
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IgorC
post Dec 20 2011, 20:56
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I have a question who really has performed ABX test to see if there was an improvement for LAME 3.97/3.98/3.99 for the same bitrate.

AFAIK each new version boosts more bitrate on difficult parts. That makes uncomparable 3.97 -V5 vs 3.98 -V 5.
3.99 -V0 is better than 3.98.4/3.97 -V0 because it has higher bitrate. It's ok as V0 targets to highest quality close to max 320 kbps.

But the question is: were there any substantial improvements while keeping the same bitrate?

I remeber Guruboolez has compared 3.98 and 3.97 http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=460922

To refresh the minds 3.97 beta 2 was realesed in 2005. 6 years ago.

And also some japanese guy http://d.hatena.ne.jp/kamedo2/20111214/1323849399

I really like very much LAME project but I can't see clear improvements without increasing bitrate (since 3.97).

This post has been edited by IgorC: Dec 20 2011, 21:12
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halb27
post Dec 20 2011, 22:00
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QUOTE (IgorC @ Dec 20 2011, 20:56) *
.....
I really like very much LAME project but I can't see clear improvements without increasing bitrate (since 3.97).

Sure there was improvement.
Trumpet for instance was real bad when using VBR up to 3.97. 3.98 improved significantly on it. Same goes for the 'sandpaper noise' issue. Just to talk about problem samples I care about. IIRC eig improved too.
Improvements like these don't necessarily bring average bitrate up. AFAIK average bitrate for the various -V levels did not significantly vary from version to version before 3.99. For 3.99 it's by design, but even then for -V levels around -V3/-V2 average bitrate is very close to that of 3.98.
Of course individual birate of specific tracks can vary significantly reflecting changes in the psy model.

This post has been edited by halb27: Dec 20 2011, 22:15


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Posts in this topic
- izscors   Why Continue MP3 Development Given AAC?   Dec 16 2011, 18:10
- - hlloyge   AAC is, as I learned, better at lower bitrates (96...   Dec 16 2011, 18:15
|- - izscors   QUOTE (hlloyge @ Dec 16 2011, 13:15) AAC ...   Dec 16 2011, 18:50
|- - hlloyge   QUOTE (izscors @ Dec 16 2011, 19:50) Is i...   Dec 17 2011, 13:42
- - saratoga   QUOTE (izscors @ Dec 16 2011, 12:10) I ca...   Dec 16 2011, 18:35
- - DVDdoug   As long as there is interest and demand, and as lo...   Dec 16 2011, 18:59
|- - izscors   I guess we have them both because there are styli...   Dec 16 2011, 19:28
|- - saratoga   Its not really clear to me what you expect to happ...   Dec 16 2011, 19:36
- - kode54   No, but perhaps some people may start to work on F...   Dec 16 2011, 20:23
- - kwanbis   QUOTE (izscors @ Dec 16 2011, 18:10) Plea...   Dec 16 2011, 23:04
- - kennedyb4   Some devices do not support AAC. My friend has a n...   Dec 17 2011, 03:25
|- - marc2003   QUOTE (kennedyb4 @ Dec 17 2011, 02:25) So...   Dec 17 2011, 11:06
|- - Elbart   QUOTE (marc2003 @ Dec 17 2011, 11:06) QUO...   Dec 18 2011, 10:23
||- - kwanbis   QUOTE (Elbart @ Dec 18 2011, 10:23) iPods...   Dec 18 2011, 18:07
|- - Glenn Gundlach   QUOTE (marc2003 @ Dec 17 2011, 02:06) tha...   Dec 18 2011, 17:36
- - onkl   The difference in quality is too small to justify ...   Dec 17 2011, 07:07
- - halb27   With today's cheap and huge storage capacities...   Dec 17 2011, 08:15
- - shakey_snake   Because we want to be tortured by id3 tagging fore...   Dec 17 2011, 15:14
|- - odigg   I know this response may make people think I'm...   Dec 17 2011, 17:45
|- - Soap   QUOTE (odigg @ Dec 17 2011, 12:45) I wond...   Dec 17 2011, 18:10
|- - odigg   QUOTE (Soap @ Dec 17 2011, 12:10) You don...   Dec 17 2011, 18:18
- - lvqcl   QUOTE such a focus on MP3 use and development? Ho...   Dec 17 2011, 18:21
|- - odigg   QUOTE (lvqcl @ Dec 17 2011, 12:21) How ma...   Dec 17 2011, 18:28
- - GHammer   I like MP3 because: I've used it since I star...   Dec 17 2011, 18:24
- - kennedyb4   I think it is very worthwhile to perfect where pos...   Dec 17 2011, 18:57
|- - izzyfinhaifa   QUOTE (kennedyb4 @ Dec 17 2011, 10:57) Bu...   Dec 18 2011, 14:19
|- - pdq   QUOTE (izzyfinhaifa @ Dec 18 2011, 09:19)...   Dec 19 2011, 05:38
|- - slks   QUOTE (pdq @ Dec 18 2011, 22:38) QUOTE (i...   Dec 20 2011, 06:43
|- - pdq   QUOTE (slks @ Dec 20 2011, 01:43) I have ...   Dec 20 2011, 13:33
- - marc2003   oh i know that. but you still have relatively few ...   Dec 18 2011, 11:57
|- - jukkap   QUOTE (marc2003 @ Dec 18 2011, 12:57) oh ...   Dec 18 2011, 15:18
|- - marc2003   QUOTE (jukkap @ Dec 18 2011, 14:18) All 3...   Dec 18 2011, 21:33
|- - MichaelW   QUOTE (marc2003 @ Dec 19 2011, 08:33) 3G?...   Dec 19 2011, 03:52
||- - marc2003   QUOTE (MichaelW @ Dec 19 2011, 02:52) Oh,...   Dec 19 2011, 12:47
|- - jukkap   QUOTE (marc2003 @ Dec 18 2011, 22:33) QUO...   Dec 19 2011, 09:10
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (jukkap @ Dec 19 2011, 09:10) I...   Dec 19 2011, 12:26
|- - probedb   QUOTE (jukkap @ Dec 19 2011, 08:10) I...   Dec 19 2011, 15:35
- - lvqcl   QUOTE (izzyfinhaifa @ Dec 18 2011, 17:19)...   Dec 18 2011, 14:32
- - Kujibo   I was once of the mindset many years ago that I wa...   Dec 19 2011, 02:19
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Kujibo @ Dec 18 2011, 20:19) So fo...   Dec 19 2011, 18:51
- - Goratrix   I would only consider moving away from mp3 if ther...   Dec 19 2011, 15:30
- - jukkap   QUOTE (Goratrix @ Dec 19 2011, 16:30) I w...   Dec 19 2011, 20:59
|- - saratoga   As per our forum rules, if you are going to make c...   Dec 19 2011, 21:18
||- - jukkap   QUOTE (saratoga @ Dec 19 2011, 22:18) As ...   Dec 20 2011, 14:02
|- - kwanbis   QUOTE (jukkap @ Dec 19 2011, 20:59) AAC j...   Dec 19 2011, 22:18
|- - probedb   QUOTE (jukkap @ Dec 19 2011, 19:59) AAC j...   Dec 20 2011, 09:41
- - IgorC   jukkap While your AAC encoder is CBR (or "s...   Dec 20 2011, 14:16
|- - jukkap   QUOTE (IgorC @ Dec 20 2011, 15:16) jukkap...   Dec 21 2011, 11:59
|- - IgorC   QUOTE (jukkap @ Dec 21 2011, 07:59) Accor...   Dec 21 2011, 13:30
- - shadowking   Even 5 ~ 10 yrs ago the difference between aac and...   Dec 20 2011, 15:05
- - greynol   QUOTE (jukkap @ Dec 20 2011, 05:02) I am ...   Dec 20 2011, 18:33
|- - jukkap   QUOTE (greynol @ Dec 20 2011, 19:33) QUOT...   Dec 21 2011, 11:45
|- - spoon   QUOTE (jukkap @ Dec 21 2011, 10:45) I use...   Dec 21 2011, 13:08
|- - The Seeker   QUOTE (spoon @ Dec 21 2011, 13:08) Ok so ...   Dec 21 2011, 14:45
- - Engelsstaub   Some here are saying that MP3 is "universal....   Dec 20 2011, 20:06
|- - Nick.C   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Dec 20 2011, 19:06) ...   Dec 20 2011, 21:12
||- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (Nick.C @ Dec 20 2011, 14:12) QUOTE...   Dec 20 2011, 21:45
||- - GHammer   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Dec 20 2011, 16:45) ...   Dec 21 2011, 03:48
||- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (GHammer @ Dec 20 2011, 20:48) My n...   Dec 21 2011, 04:03
|||- - GHammer   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Dec 20 2011, 23:03) ...   Dec 21 2011, 04:47
||- - Soap   QUOTE (GHammer @ Dec 20 2011, 21:48) My n...   Dec 21 2011, 04:21
|- - Brand   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Dec 20 2011, 20:06) ...   Dec 20 2011, 23:18
||- - MichaelW   QUOTE (Brand @ Dec 21 2011, 10:18) Many P...   Dec 20 2011, 23:25
|- - onkl   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Dec 21 2011, 05:02) ...   Dec 21 2011, 09:38
|- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (onkl @ Dec 21 2011, 02:38) ...so w...   Dec 21 2011, 10:19
|- - nu774   When coupling with H264, usually AAC is used (sinc...   Dec 21 2011, 11:42
- - IgorC   I have a question who really has performed ABX tes...   Dec 20 2011, 20:56
|- - halb27   QUOTE (IgorC @ Dec 20 2011, 20:56) ..... ...   Dec 20 2011, 22:00
|- - IgorC   QUOTE (halb27 @ Dec 20 2011, 18:00) Sure ...   Dec 20 2011, 23:45
|- - halb27   QUOTE (IgorC @ Dec 20 2011, 23:45) QUOTE ...   Dec 21 2011, 01:47
- - Woodinville   Well, there has also been a very nasty mess in the...   Dec 21 2011, 00:01
- - IgorC   Can You provide the results where You have compare...   Dec 21 2011, 02:59
|- - halb27   QUOTE (IgorC @ Dec 21 2011, 02:59) Can Yo...   Dec 21 2011, 10:42
- - nu774   Cell phones in Japan used to support AAC in 3gp/3g...   Dec 21 2011, 03:47
- - Engelsstaub   I was only wondering if it was possible. If it sup...   Dec 21 2011, 05:02
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Dec 20 2011, 23:02) ...   Dec 21 2011, 06:41
||- - MichaelW   QUOTE (saratoga @ Dec 21 2011, 17:41) Yes...   Dec 21 2011, 07:36
||- - saratoga   QUOTE (MichaelW @ Dec 21 2011, 01:36) QUO...   Dec 21 2011, 21:07
||- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (saratoga @ Dec 21 2011, 14:07) ......   Dec 22 2011, 02:36
||- - MichaelW   QUOTE (saratoga @ Dec 22 2011, 08:07) On ...   Dec 22 2011, 06:33
||- - MichaelW   QUOTE (saratoga @ Dec 22 2011, 08:07) On ...   Dec 22 2011, 06:57
||- - Soap   QUOTE (MichaelW @ Dec 22 2011, 00:57) of ...   Dec 22 2011, 13:45
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Dec 20 2011, 20:02) ...   Dec 21 2011, 06:55
- - greynol   Pretending Apple never came into play, you don...   Dec 21 2011, 08:38
- - IgorC   I mean the comparison of different versions of LAM...   Dec 21 2011, 11:33
- - spoon   Thanks, you have learned that to me now   Dec 21 2011, 14:48
|- - The Seeker   QUOTE (spoon @ Dec 21 2011, 14:48) Thanks...   Dec 21 2011, 20:28
- - db1989   I see what he did there…   Dec 21 2011, 20:38
- - shakey_snake   Glad to see my earlier comment went appreciated. ...   Dec 22 2011, 06:55
- - IgorC   Also Microsoft fully supports standards LC-AAC/HE...   Dec 22 2011, 14:08
- - hernaaan   Perhaps the one who started the topic wanted to sa...   Dec 22 2011, 14:58
|- - lvqcl   QUOTE (hernaaan @ Dec 22 2011, 17:58) peo...   Dec 22 2011, 15:59
- - nu774   I think there's some truth in "AAC=Apple...   Dec 22 2011, 15:55
- - apodtele   The virtue of MP3 is its simplicity compared to WM...   Dec 22 2011, 19:00
- - Soap   QUOTE (apodtele @ Dec 22 2011, 13:00) The...   Dec 22 2011, 19:26
|- - kwanbis   QUOTE (Soap @ Dec 22 2011, 19:26) Dare I ...   Dec 22 2011, 19:38
|- - Soap   QUOTE (kwanbis @ Dec 22 2011, 13:38) QUOT...   Dec 22 2011, 19:43
|- - kwanbis   QUOTE (Soap @ Dec 22 2011, 19:43) And dar...   Dec 22 2011, 21:02
- - greynol   QUOTE (apodtele @ Dec 22 2011, 10:00) The...   Dec 22 2011, 20:30
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