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xiphmont’s ‘There is no point to distributing music in 24 bit/192 kHz’, Article: “24/192 Music Downloads are Very Silly Indeed”
NullC
post Mar 6 2012, 03:14
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Of interest, but certainly not news to anyone here is Monty's educational piece regarding the lack of value of 24/192 as a distribution format:

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

Some of the commentary on the internet has been not especially well informed, for example there are some crazy claims at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3668310. If you're in a "someone is wrong on the internet!" correcting mood, you might want to go leave some comments in furtherance of the collective intelligence of mankind.

Cheers
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icstm
post Mar 7 2012, 15:20
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This article is a perfect answer to my FIRST question smile.gif laugh.gif <-- me really happy


In the slashdot article there is a great comment that really starts to provide a robust defence to all those who don't want to beleive the science of it all

QUOTE
I also spent 4 years studying an EE degree, and although it was not especially focused on signal processing, I now work for a large pro audio company.

Some of the issues pointed to in this and other posts regarding oversampling and AA filters are not really relevant to the subject at hand, given the technology currently in use. A statement like 'oversampling at 192 kHz' shows a lack of knowledge regarding the kinds of audio converters that have been in use for a good while now. A Delta Sigma ADC running with an Fs of 48 kHz might often be oversampling at 3.072 MHz or 6.144 MHz. Anti aliasing filters that many people have mentioned are implemented digitally inside the converter (no need for external analog filters, which may well exhibit many of the problems mentioned), and actually have extremely good pass band ripple.

Look at datasheets for converters from manufacturers such as TI (burr brown) [ti.com], cirrus [cirrus.com] [page 36 here has detailed plots of 48, 96, and 192 kHz pass pand characterisitcs for the device, highlighting the fact that increasing the sampling rate does not improve pass band ripple for this device (also note the scale is 0.02 dB/div)], AKM [asahi-kasei.co.jp], Wolfson micro [wolfsonmicro.com] You will find pass band pass responses that are flat to within less than +/- 0.05 dB over the audible range, and stop band attenuation in excess of 100 dB, whether sampling at 48 kHz or 192 kHz. If you can find anything in actual converter datasheets that points to better converter performance from selecting a higher sampling rate, I would be interested to see it.

All in all, the basics of sampling theory don't really help people to understant the real world issues in designing a moden high end audio device. And in the end, surely the proof of the pudding is in the blind tests, that never seem to show that anybody can tell any difference when moving to higher rates? Even if there were a few people who could hear this difference in some perfect listening envirmonment, would it really make sense for everyone else to go out and buy 192 kHz equipment?
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- NullC   xiphmont’s ‘There is no point to distributing music in 24 bit/192 kHz’   Mar 6 2012, 03:14
- - NullC   It's also on slashdot now: http://news.slashdo...   Mar 6 2012, 05:36
- - Canar   RE: xiphmont’s ‘There is no point to distributing music in 24 bit/192 kHz’   Mar 6 2012, 05:52
|- - mudlord   QUOTE (Canar @ Mar 5 2012, 22:52)   Mar 6 2012, 06:08
|- - xiphmont   QUOTE (Canar @ Mar 5 2012, 23:52) Oooh,...   Mar 9 2012, 09:12
|- - Canar   QUOTE (xiphmont @ Mar 9 2012, 00:12) Oooh...   Mar 9 2012, 16:36
- - DigitalMan   Very, very nicely done. Long live TOS #8.   Mar 6 2012, 06:27
- - Carledwards   Excellent. Glad to see this and I hope it gets wid...   Mar 6 2012, 08:50
- - Batman321   Great article! Meanwhile in a parallel u...   Mar 6 2012, 09:00
- - Porcus   At the risk of spinning off a digression: what is ...   Mar 6 2012, 09:32
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 6 2012, 03:32) At the...   Mar 6 2012, 14:41
- - skamp   ^^^ http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2012/03/odac-updat...   Mar 6 2012, 10:27
- - AndyH-ha   The answer depends on conditions, like the chem la...   Mar 6 2012, 10:39
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Mar 6 2012, 10:39)...   Mar 6 2012, 13:30
||- - saratoga   QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 6 2012, 07:30) QUOTE ...   Mar 6 2012, 18:26
|- - DonP   QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Mar 6 2012, 05:39)...   Mar 6 2012, 13:59
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (DonP @ Mar 6 2012, 07:59) QUOTE (A...   Mar 6 2012, 14:45
|- - Martel   QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Mar 6 2012, 11:39)...   Mar 6 2012, 15:15
- - hlloyge   Finally. Thank you.   Mar 6 2012, 11:25
- - razer   Such a great read.   Mar 6 2012, 13:16
- - dumdidum   Monty: "The more that pseudoscience goes unch...   Mar 6 2012, 14:52
- - Wombat   QUOTE (NullC @ Mar 6 2012, 03:14) Some of...   Mar 6 2012, 17:02
- - Satellite_6   "It's hard to fake ambisonics or holograp...   Mar 6 2012, 20:56
- - jensend   By the by, I recently added a little writeup about...   Mar 6 2012, 22:53
|- - klonuo   QUOTE (jensend @ Mar 6 2012, 23:53) By th...   Mar 7 2012, 00:04
- - soulsearchingsun   From the article: QUOTE Audibility of a CD-Standar...   Mar 6 2012, 23:39
|- - pdq   QUOTE (soulsearchingsun @ Mar 6 2012, 17...   Mar 7 2012, 03:41
|- - WernerO   QUOTE (pdq @ Mar 7 2012, 03:41) QUOTE (so...   Mar 7 2012, 09:04
|- - soulsearchingsun   QUOTE (pdq @ Mar 7 2012, 03:41) QUOTE (so...   Mar 7 2012, 11:00
- - wakibaki   I'm happy to see a truly coherent argument aga...   Mar 7 2012, 00:57
|- - NullC   QUOTE (wakibaki @ Mar 6 2012, 16:57) This...   Mar 7 2012, 01:34
|- - BearcatSandor   QUOTE (wakibaki @ Mar 6 2012, 17:57) I...   Mar 7 2012, 07:50
- - wakibaki   I thought he made good points, but he quoted Meyer...   Mar 7 2012, 01:54
|- - xiphmont   QUOTE (wakibaki @ Mar 6 2012, 19:54) I th...   Mar 9 2012, 10:12
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (xiphmont @ Mar 9 2012, 10:12) The ...   Mar 9 2012, 12:43
||- - icstm   QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 9 2012, 11:43) If som...   Mar 9 2012, 16:16
||- - greynol   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 9 2012, 07:16) how doe...   Mar 9 2012, 16:45
||- - Porcus   QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 9 2012, 16:45) QUOTE...   Mar 9 2012, 17:05
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (xiphmont @ Mar 9 2012, 04:12) QUOT...   Mar 9 2012, 23:18
||- - xiphmont   QUOTE (krabapple @ Mar 9 2012, 17:18) Tha...   Mar 10 2012, 03:12
||- - krabapple   QUOTE (xiphmont @ Mar 9 2012, 21:12) Exce...   Mar 10 2012, 23:09
||- - FreaqyFrequency   QUOTE (krabapple @ Mar 10 2012, 17:09) po...   Mar 11 2012, 04:27
||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (FreaqyFrequency @ Mar 11 2012, 03...   Mar 11 2012, 20:42
|||- - xiphmont   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 11 2012, 14:42) QU...   Mar 11 2012, 21:01
|||- - Porcus   QUOTE (xiphmont @ Mar 11 2012, 21:01) As ...   Mar 11 2012, 23:05
||- - krabapple   QUOTE (FreaqyFrequency @ Mar 10 2012, 22...   Mar 12 2012, 05:09
||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (krabapple @ Mar 12 2012, 04:09) Th...   Mar 12 2012, 10:48
|- - wakibaki   QUOTE (xiphmont @ Mar 9 2012, 09:12) QUOT...   Mar 14 2012, 15:07
- - BearcatSandor   The article mentions that SACDs often sound better...   Mar 7 2012, 05:49
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (BearcatSandor @ Mar 6 2012, 23:49)...   Mar 9 2012, 22:55
- - 2Bdecided   I think this is a fantastic article. Without wis...   Mar 7 2012, 11:19
- - Porcus   My sixth sense (i.e., my faithful placebo) just to...   Mar 7 2012, 12:57
- - icstm   This article is a perfect answer to my FIRST quest...   Mar 7 2012, 15:20
- - LaserSokrates   An excellent read, thank you very much! A bit ...   Mar 9 2012, 23:35
- - hellokeith   Does the statement of the benefits of mixing/maste...   Mar 11 2012, 00:57
|- - icstm   QUOTE (hellokeith @ Mar 10 2012, 23:57) D...   Mar 13 2012, 16:43
|- - drewfx   QUOTE (icstm @ Mar 13 2012, 10:43) I woul...   Mar 13 2012, 17:43
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (drewfx @ Mar 13 2012, 16:43) QUOTE...   Mar 14 2012, 10:33
|- - drewfx   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 14 2012, 04:33) QU...   Mar 14 2012, 16:41
|- - icstm   QUOTE (drewfx @ Mar 14 2012, 15:41) Yes. ...   Mar 15 2012, 16:34
|- - drewfx   I'm unaware of any audio processing where inau...   Mar 15 2012, 17:35
- - Wombat   At first i have to congrat Monty that he gave us t...   Mar 11 2012, 02:54
|- - julf   QUOTE (Wombat @ Mar 11 2012, 02:54) Greet...   Mar 11 2012, 11:26
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Wombat @ Mar 10 2012, 17:54) There...   Mar 11 2012, 19:33
- - moozooh   In my opinion, the problem we need to focus on is ...   Mar 11 2012, 16:37
- - Wombat   What about recent CD versions that obviously don´t...   Mar 11 2012, 17:42
- - skamp   We're talking about a forum that's called ...   Mar 12 2012, 11:28
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (skamp @ Mar 12 2012, 11:28) while ...   Mar 12 2012, 13:18
|- - icstm   QUOTE (skamp @ Mar 12 2012, 10:28) We...   Mar 12 2012, 17:57
- - bandpass   From the article: QUOTE Modern work flows may invo...   Mar 13 2012, 11:19
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (bandpass @ Mar 13 2012, 11:19) Fro...   Mar 13 2012, 11:49
- - bandpass   Yes, so while a pure float32 system could have pro...   Mar 13 2012, 12:24
- - pdq   I would hardly call float32 a danger zone. Even wh...   Mar 13 2012, 14:07
|- - icstm   QUOTE (pdq @ Mar 13 2012, 13:07) I would ...   Mar 13 2012, 16:12
- - bandpass   Yes, but if "Modern work flows may involve li...   Mar 13 2012, 15:24
|- - SebastianG   QUOTE (bandpass @ Mar 13 2012, 15:24) Yes...   Mar 13 2012, 15:33
- - bandpass   Yes, the "sqrt rule" applies: 1000 (but...   Mar 13 2012, 16:09
- - mixminus1   QUOTE BTW, did we get an asnwer to this? Yes, it w...   Mar 13 2012, 17:11
- - IgorC   How about just wide public test for 16/44.1, 22/44...   Mar 14 2012, 01:43
- - Wombat   Where is Adam Savage & Jamie Hyneman when you ...   Mar 14 2012, 01:52
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (Wombat @ Mar 14 2012, 01:52) Where...   Mar 14 2012, 07:42
- - krabapple   There is no point in distributing audio to consume...   Mar 14 2012, 16:44
- - greynol   It should be pretty clear from the title of the di...   Mar 15 2012, 17:48
|- - icstm   QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 15 2012, 16:48) It s...   Mar 16 2012, 11:22
- - greynol   It's really a moot point since 16/44.1 can rep...   Mar 15 2012, 19:14
- - krabapple   xiphmont: evolver's reposting of your article ...   Oct 11 2012, 20:53
|- - bandpass   QUOTE Papers with interesting ideas and no data (e...   Oct 12 2012, 05:51
- - Patrunjica   Fascinating read, there has been one sticking poin...   Oct 13 2012, 23:51
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Patrunjica @ Oct 13 2012, 18:51) I...   Oct 14 2012, 00:01
- - greynol   Your wave editor is connecting the samples with st...   Oct 13 2012, 23:59
- - Patrunjica   QUOTE (saratoga @ Oct 14 2012, 02:01) You...   Oct 14 2012, 00:13
|- - drewfx   QUOTE (Patrunjica @ Oct 13 2012, 19:13) F...   Oct 14 2012, 00:28
|- - saratoga   QUOTE (Patrunjica @ Oct 13 2012, 19:13) f...   Oct 14 2012, 00:46
- - Wombat   QUOTE (Patrunjica @ Oct 14 2012, 00:51) W...   Oct 14 2012, 00:26
- - Patrunjica   True, but each time they repeat they are different...   Oct 14 2012, 01:13
- - greynol   QUOTE (Patrunjica @ Oct 13 2012, 17:13) I...   Oct 14 2012, 01:24
- - splice   QUOTE (Patrunjica @ Oct 13 2012, 17:13) ....   Oct 14 2012, 01:39
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