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Lame 3.99 -V2 regression?
chichazor
post Mar 16 2012, 21:28
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Hi to all. In the last version of Lame 3.99.5 the -V2 switch produce a lower bitrate than the Lame 3.98 version. In a metal song the bitrate can be a lot different, about a ~30-40 kbps.

¿There's a regression con -V2 switch or it's me? The resulting files enconded with 3.99.5 can be easy ABX with the original source, and I have a lot of problems to distinguish the 3.98 encode.

PD: Sorry for my english, I'm good read to it but bad to write in.


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mixminus1
post Mar 16 2012, 21:40
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Please post the ABX logs showing the results of your test.

Also, a shorter-than-30 second sample (of the original track, and preferably as FLAC) containing the part you were able to ABX would be helpful so that others could try to reproduce your results.

You can post that in the "Uploads" section.


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Emiliano55
post May 27 2012, 00:23
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I noticed that too. 3.99.5 seems to have lower bitrates. I have encoded some new punk cds with the new Lame 3.99 and on V2 I get like 30-40 kbps less than 3.97/3.98.

Using V0 I also notice lower rates, but just about ~10-15 kbps, not that much.
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JJZolx
post May 27 2012, 01:37
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Well, there wouldn't be much point in releasing a new version that produces the same output, would there? smile.gif

Ideally, you'd expect lossy encoding improvements to produce smaller files (lower bitrates) for a given sound quality level. I've run some tests encoding a variety of music with 3.98.4 and 3.99.5 and found mostly that 3.99.5 tends produce higher bitrates at -V0 and -V1 (sometimes a lot higher), while at the lower levels it tends to produce lower bitrates than 3.98.4. The biggest difference tends to be at -V0, and as you go down each level, the differences get smaller. Still, at any given level, depending on the music being encoded, it could go either way.

Edit: Here are my test results. Looks like in all cases -V0 produced a higher bitrate output, while -V2 was mostly lower, although not dramatically so in most cases.

CODE
Average Bitrate in kbps

Aerosmith - Sweet Emotion.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 249 219 198 166 152 139 126 106 97
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 264 223 189 168 149 129 112 99 83

Allman Brothers - Melissa.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 247 226 207 181 167 153 137 117 101
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 260 227 199 184 164 142 123 111 90

Bill Evans - Polka Dots And Moonbeams.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 227 205 188 162 149 135 119 100 84
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 243 205 177 164 144 124 105 96 80

Black Keys - Set You Free.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 261 232 202 162 148 135 123 103 94
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 258 219 185 165 146 128 115 98 79

Bob Marley - Redemption Song.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 215 183 166 152 139 121 107 86 73
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 228 197 167 151 128 103 86 78 72

Count Basie - Lester Leaps In.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 242 224 208 194 178 153 139 115 101
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 258 229 197 179 156 130 112 102 93

Cowboy Junkies - Mining For Gold.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 241 206 185 155 141 127 116 97 82
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 249 207 175 159 139 119 102 93 77

Del McCoury - Rambling Boy.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 242 212 192 176 161 144 129 107 94
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 266 226 193 177 155 130 111 102 89

Dizzy Gillespie - Manteca.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 246 221 201 180 167 152 137 116 101
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 263 224 196 181 162 139 119 108 94

Ella Fitzgerald - Anything Goes.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 167 144 131 116 107 96 87 72 63
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 187 159 137 123 109 92 79 71 60

George Baker Selection - Little Green Bag.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 256 233 213 184 170 157 141 121 107
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 268 235 205 190 171 150 133 120 98

George Jones - She Thinks I Still Care.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 231 198 178 161 148 134 121 105 93
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 264 212 180 166 147 127 110 102 87

Jack Johnson - Better Together.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 242 215 194 166 152 137 123 105 93
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 263 227 193 172 152 130 113 103 87

Jimmy Cliff - Ska All Over The World.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 227 207 191 179 166 151 135 114 100
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 249 218 191 179 160 133 113 105 93

John Coltrane - Giant Steps.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 269 227 203 184 171 156 140 126 113
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 292 238 201 187 167 145 126 121 102

Johnny Winter - Mojo Boogie.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 256 224 200 171 156 142 131 106 100
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 284 232 193 170 150 130 114 98 77

Kanye West - Gold Digger.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 220 190 172 147 137 125 115 95 87
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 249 213 178 159 143 125 109 96 77

Katia Lebeque & the Cleveland Orchestra - Rhapsody in Blue.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 230 208 190 174 158 130 118 93 79
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 247 210 178 159 135 108 91 83 82

Leo Kottke - Jesus Maria.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 212 191 176 162 148 133 118 99 86
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 236 204 178 165 144 118 98 94 86

Lotus - Sea Of Tranquility.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 203 176 160 148 135 113 104 84 73
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 229 192 160 142 124 102 88 79 69

Marcos Valle - Para Os Filhos De Abraao.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 239 207 186 161 148 134 121 102 88
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 261 221 186 167 148 128 113 101 81

Nirvana - Smells Like Teen Spirit.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 266 242 215 167 152 138 124 103 92
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 259 224 191 169 148 127 113 96 79

Ottmar Liebert - August Moon.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 253 231 214 198 183 167 150 132 114
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 299 248 218 202 181 157 134 129 107

Peter Tosh - Get Up, Stand Up.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 257 238 220 199 185 164 150 128 112
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 277 247 217 201 178 151 131 124 107

Pointer Sisters - Fire.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 242 213 193 165 151 136 123 105 92
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 261 226 192 169 148 126 110 101 89

Psychedelic Furs - Love My Way.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 244 208 185 162 147 133 121 102 96
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 262 220 182 164 145 125 110 98 81

Rolling Stones - Street Fighting Man.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 248 228 212 200 185 169 153 125 113
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 259 232 205 192 171 148 119 112 90

Shirley Bassey - Moonraker.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 241 216 195 173 158 142 127 105 89
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 261 225 194 177 157 135 118 103 80

Smiths - Please, Please, Please, Let Me Get What I Want.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 254 240 225 186 171 155 138 107 95
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 271 246 217 195 173 150 132 105 78

Steely Dan - Black Friday.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 244 219 200 171 155 139 124 105 92
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 266 231 196 174 152 128 113 102 85

Stevie Ray Vaughan - The House Is Rockin'.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 258 242 217 167 153 139 125 105 95
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 261 230 200 170 150 130 115 100 83

Sublime - Badfish.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 252 222 202 177 162 147 132 114 101
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 276 237 202 182 161 139 122 113 94

Thelonious Monk - Ruby, My Dear.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 207 177 161 149 137 121 110 87 72
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 226 196 166 150 132 100 80 75 80

Tomita - Introduction And Dance Of The Firebird.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 224 204 188 174 160 135 119 92 76
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 237 209 182 164 139 107 88 80 78

U2 - Bullet The Blue Sky.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 241 219 201 165 151 138 122 102 88
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 255 222 190 168 148 127 113 99 79

Van Morrison - Moondance.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 236 210 192 173 159 145 130 111 95
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 255 218 189 174 155 133 114 105 87

Will Ackerman - Abide The Winter.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 228 208 192 177 161 135 119 93 76
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 244 216 186 167 142 108 88 82 78

Yngwie Malmsteen - Leviathan.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 252 213 187 166 151 137 124 103 98
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 268 222 185 166 146 126 111 96 81

Yo-Yo Ma - Boccherini - Cello Concerto No. 7 in G major, G480 I. Allegro.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.98.4 (RareWares 32-bit) 224 204 188 173 157 132 118 95 81
3.99.5 (RareWares 32-bit) 239 209 180 164 141 114 95 88 82


This post has been edited by JJZolx: May 27 2012, 01:56
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shadowking
post May 27 2012, 09:58
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The lowered bitrate is related to SFB21 bug fixes. The bloat is greatly reduced.




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Emiliano55
post May 28 2012, 00:45
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Well, I only noticed lower bitrates on the only two punk cds i encoded so far with 3.99. I will need to test it on more cds. But yeah, on V2 the lower bitrates are more noticeable. Anyways, as JJZolx said, if this new version does that, then it should be something good smile.gif

This post has been edited by Emiliano55: May 28 2012, 00:45
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goldyn chyld
post May 28 2012, 10:11
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I've also noticed lower bitrates on several hip-hop albums that I've ripped - for example, even using -V0 I got bitrates pretty much below 200 kbps. Any ideas why? I eventually decided to just go with CBR 320 for that album because ~190 kbps average just wasn't acceptable for me. Or is it these new algorhythms that will make the songs sound as good even at ~190 kbps (-V0) as they would at ~240 kbps???
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Kohlrabi
post May 28 2012, 10:49
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QUOTE (goldyn chyld @ May 28 2012, 11:11) *
I've also noticed lower bitrates on several hip-hop albums that I've ripped - for example, even using -V0 I got bitrates pretty much below 200 kbps. Any ideas why? I eventually decided to just go with CBR 320 for that album because ~190 kbps average just wasn't acceptable for me. Or is it these new algorhythms that will make the songs sound as good even at ~190 kbps (-V0) as they would at ~240 kbps???

Bitrate is no quality metric, but a filesize metric.

Feel free to provide ABX results of encodes made by LAME 3.99.5 with high VBR settings. If you cannot ABX it, you should be happy to save some space on your encodes in the future. It certainly isn't "unacceptable" if the filesize gets smaller while maintaining transparency, quite the contrary.

This post has been edited by Kohlrabi: May 28 2012, 11:03


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