Quantization Grid, Split from Topic ID #55966 |
Quantization Grid, Split from Topic ID #55966 |
Mar 10 2012, 11:58
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#1
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Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 21-January 09 From: UK Member No.: 65825 |
I have thought that this phenomana may be real for years . I call it the "quantiztion grid". An analog waveform can change direction or cross the zero line at an infinite number of locations. Sampling and Quantization create a grid to which features of the waveform are statistically constrained. Increasing the sample rate at a fixed bandwidth inreases the quantization grid density. Whether it is perceivable is what is in question. This experiment may have proved it. I will give some thought to a simillar experiment that forum members can do for themselves and start a new topic on it.
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Mar 12 2012, 15:58
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#2
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Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 21-January 09 From: UK Member No.: 65825 |
The movement of the quantization levels by dithering averages to zero over a number of points. Statistically the dithered quantization levels still fall on the original quantization points plus a deviation ether side with the statistical distribution shape determined by the noise used. I think it would be useful to be able to statistically analyse the shape of a piece of audio to asertain what process recorded it.
This post has been edited by KMD: Mar 12 2012, 16:07 |
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KMD Quantization Grid Mar 10 2012, 11:58
AstralStorm There's no "quantization grid", it... Mar 10 2012, 17:28
KMD The quantization grid is not caused by sampling it... Mar 10 2012, 21:30
lvqcl QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 11 2012, 00:30) The digi... Mar 10 2012, 21:43
KMD The output of the D to A is derived from a regular... Mar 10 2012, 22:05
lvqcl QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 11 2012, 01:05) The outp... Mar 10 2012, 22:21
Speedskater About a year or so ago, j.j. wrote:
In fact, we c... Mar 10 2012, 22:16
KMD Just for clarify when I say co-ordinate I mean x a... Mar 10 2012, 22:21
KMD ivqci - I am talking about regularity in the shape... Mar 10 2012, 22:24
2Bdecided QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 10 2012, 21:24) ivqci - ... Mar 12 2012, 17:08
KMD when you say can be seen on a scope I guess you me... Mar 12 2012, 17:23
2Bdecided QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 12 2012, 16:23) when you... Mar 12 2012, 18:23
lvqcl But we cannot hear the shape. Mar 10 2012, 22:31
KMD lvqcl- But whatever we do hear must be derived f... Mar 10 2012, 22:39
googlebot QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 10 2012, 22:39) lvqcl- ... Mar 11 2012, 12:50
NullC QUOTE (googlebot @ Mar 11 2012, 04:50) Th... Mar 12 2012, 01:30
KMD Thanks for the discussion.
My conclusion on this... Mar 19 2012, 11:14
Arnold B. Krueger QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 19 2012, 06:14) Thanks f... Mar 19 2012, 13:39
KMD Hello Arnold
Signal to noise ratio, and resoluti... Mar 19 2012, 14:28
Arnold B. Krueger QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 19 2012, 09:28) Signal t... Mar 20 2012, 19:23
icstm Is Arnold not saying that the output signal might ... Mar 19 2012, 15:14
KMD Hi icstm
An analogue recording system has infini... Mar 19 2012, 15:19
Arnold B. Krueger QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 19 2012, 10:19) Hi icstm... Mar 20 2012, 19:30
2Bdecided Until you define the meaning of the term "res... Mar 19 2012, 15:24
KMD Resolution is the smallest detail a system can rec... Mar 19 2012, 15:29
2Bdecided QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 19 2012, 14:29) Resoluti... Mar 19 2012, 15:48
KMD Sampling has nothing to do with it . Sampling is t... Mar 19 2012, 16:00
icstm yes, but what makes you say a analogue signal can ... Mar 19 2012, 16:07
KMD I did not mention accuracy and precision. The subj... Mar 19 2012, 16:11
2Bdecided QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 19 2012, 15:11) I did no... Mar 19 2012, 19:03
icstm resolution is comparible with precision it is the ... Mar 19 2012, 17:14
knutinh Being able to recreate infinitely small signals wo... Mar 19 2012, 23:32
2Bdecided QUOTE (knutinh @ Mar 19 2012, 22:32) Bein... Mar 20 2012, 10:38
KMD - icstm , you are confusing resolution with sign... Mar 20 2012, 10:57
Arnold B. Krueger QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 20 2012, 05:57) - icstm ... Mar 20 2012, 19:33
icstm no, I am saying that resolution is only relevant i... Mar 20 2012, 11:28
KMD No, the small variations in the waveform are there... Mar 20 2012, 11:57
greynol Why do you keep insisting that dither must be pres... Mar 20 2012, 15:09
2Bdecided QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 20 2012, 14:09) Why ... Mar 20 2012, 17:33
greynol I'm more than a bit skeptical of that. Mar 20 2012, 18:11

pdq QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 20 2012, 13:11) I... Mar 20 2012, 18:36

Arnold B. Krueger QUOTE (pdq @ Mar 20 2012, 13:36) QUOTE (g... Mar 20 2012, 19:36


greynol QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Mar 20 2012, 11... Mar 20 2012, 19:42


2Bdecided QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 20 2012, 18:42) QUOT... Mar 20 2012, 19:52


Arnold B. Krueger QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 20 2012, 14:52) QU... Mar 20 2012, 20:02

2Bdecided QUOTE (pdq @ Mar 20 2012, 17:36) I'm ... Mar 20 2012, 19:43

greynol QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 20 2012, 11:43) Th... Mar 20 2012, 19:54

2Bdecided QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 20 2012, 18:54) QUOT... Mar 20 2012, 19:59


drewfx QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 20 2012, 13:59) Th... Mar 20 2012, 21:13

2Bdecided QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 20 2012, 18:54) not ... Mar 20 2012, 20:03
Speedskater QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 20 2012, 12:33) Fo... Mar 21 2012, 00:34
2Bdecided QUOTE (Speedskater @ Mar 20 2012, 23:34) ... Mar 21 2012, 11:02
greynol Are you trying to tell me inter-sample points don... Mar 20 2012, 18:46
Arnold B. Krueger QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 20 2012, 13:46) Are ... Mar 20 2012, 19:41
pdq The reconstruction filter only filters out frequen... Mar 20 2012, 18:53
greynol QUOTE (pdq @ Mar 20 2012, 10:53) leaving ... Mar 20 2012, 19:06
greynol I edited my previous response to include your foll... Mar 20 2012, 20:02
greynol QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 20 2012, 12:03) Fr... Mar 20 2012, 20:08
2Bdecided Ah, maybe we're at cross purposes, and don... Mar 20 2012, 20:09
googlebot Aren't those pictures just showing that not en... Mar 20 2012, 20:30
pdq It's always present. Dither simply replaces mu... Mar 20 2012, 21:30
drewfx Understood. The point I'm making is that the ... Mar 20 2012, 21:39
greynol QUOTE (drewfx @ Mar 20 2012, 13:39) The p... Mar 20 2012, 21:43
googlebot QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 20 2012, 21:43) QUOT... Mar 20 2012, 22:07
2Bdecided QUOTE (googlebot @ Mar 20 2012, 21:07) 2B... Mar 21 2012, 11:03
greynol The image of the dithered 50Hz wave is pretty much... Mar 20 2012, 21:40
greynol Yet the "error" plainly indicates the av... Mar 21 2012, 00:00
greynol Yes, noise (thermal, shot, interference, etc.) tha... Mar 21 2012, 01:03
KMD At what stage did you add the dither noise David.... Mar 21 2012, 12:37
2Bdecided QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 11:37) At what ... Mar 21 2012, 13:10
KMD The fact that you are sweeping the frequency adds ... Mar 21 2012, 13:25
2Bdecided QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 12:25) We don... Mar 21 2012, 15:07
pdq What would be the point? We have established that ... Mar 21 2012, 14:50
2Bdecided QUOTE (pdq @ Mar 21 2012, 13:50) What wou... Mar 21 2012, 15:40
KMD pdq -look at the 2nd image in 2bdecided post68 a... Mar 21 2012, 15:08
2Bdecided QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 14:08) pdq -loo... Mar 21 2012, 15:48
KMD David - What does the frequncey spectrum analys... Mar 21 2012, 15:35
2Bdecided QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 14:35) David - ... Mar 21 2012, 15:45
KMD Use the FFT to check that the harmonics are not th... Mar 21 2012, 16:07
2Bdecided QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 15:07) Use the ... Mar 21 2012, 16:12
KMD do the fft to confirm that the harmonics are not t... Mar 21 2012, 16:16
2Bdecided QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 15:16) do the f... Mar 21 2012, 16:34
Rotareneg Delta-sigma modulation must be a hoax. Mar 21 2012, 16:40
KMD " yes Boss" LOL
I'm glad we can h... Mar 21 2012, 17:11
KMD The image in post 77 is way to square. A reconstr... Mar 21 2012, 17:36
2Bdecided QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 16:36) The imag... Mar 21 2012, 17:46
KMD When you say 8x oversampled to simulate reconstruc... Mar 21 2012, 18:02
lvqcl QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 21:02) which co... Mar 21 2012, 18:49
greynol QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 10:02) is a gen... Mar 21 2012, 20:40
Arnold B. Krueger QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 13:02) But to s... Mar 21 2012, 21:25
drewfx QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 12:02) But to s... Mar 22 2012, 01:18
2Bdecided QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 17:02) When you... Mar 22 2012, 11:13
greynol QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 22 2012, 03:13) Be... Mar 22 2012, 13:55
pdq QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 22 2012, 08:55) Sinc... Mar 22 2012, 14:24
2Bdecided QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 22 2012, 12:55) My t... Mar 22 2012, 14:57
KMD QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 20 2012, 18:52) I... Mar 22 2012, 10:00
2Bdecided QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 22 2012, 09:00) Because ... Mar 22 2012, 11:03
greynol What about ringing? Mar 22 2012, 14:41
WernerO QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 22 2012, 14:41) What... Mar 22 2012, 14:59![]() ![]() |
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