Quantization Grid, Split from Topic ID #55966 |
Quantization Grid, Split from Topic ID #55966 |
Mar 10 2012, 11:58
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#1
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Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 21-January 09 From: UK Member No.: 65825 |
I have thought that this phenomana may be real for years . I call it the "quantiztion grid". An analog waveform can change direction or cross the zero line at an infinite number of locations. Sampling and Quantization create a grid to which features of the waveform are statistically constrained. Increasing the sample rate at a fixed bandwidth inreases the quantization grid density. Whether it is perceivable is what is in question. This experiment may have proved it. I will give some thought to a simillar experiment that forum members can do for themselves and start a new topic on it.
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Mar 21 2012, 01:03
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#2
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![]() Group: Super Moderator Posts: 9264 Joined: 1-April 04 Member No.: 13167 |
Yes, noise (thermal, shot, interference, etc.) that causes the signal to deviate from one of the discrete quantization levels as opposed to quantization error which is the reason that the signal is clamping to one of the discrete quantization levels.
Other than that the operative is "most" and how much is dependent on the highest frequency present in the signal. This post has been edited by greynol: Mar 21 2012, 07:05 -------------------- Everything sounds the same until it is proven otherwise.
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KMD Quantization Grid Mar 10 2012, 11:58
AstralStorm There's no "quantization grid", it... Mar 10 2012, 17:28
KMD The quantization grid is not caused by sampling it... Mar 10 2012, 21:30
lvqcl QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 11 2012, 00:30) The digi... Mar 10 2012, 21:43
KMD The output of the D to A is derived from a regular... Mar 10 2012, 22:05
lvqcl QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 11 2012, 01:05) The outp... Mar 10 2012, 22:21
Speedskater About a year or so ago, j.j. wrote:
In fact, we c... Mar 10 2012, 22:16
KMD Just for clarify when I say co-ordinate I mean x a... Mar 10 2012, 22:21
KMD ivqci - I am talking about regularity in the shape... Mar 10 2012, 22:24
2Bdecided QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 10 2012, 21:24) ivqci - ... Mar 12 2012, 17:08
KMD when you say can be seen on a scope I guess you me... Mar 12 2012, 17:23
2Bdecided QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 12 2012, 16:23) when you... Mar 12 2012, 18:23
lvqcl But we cannot hear the shape. Mar 10 2012, 22:31
KMD lvqcl- But whatever we do hear must be derived f... Mar 10 2012, 22:39
googlebot QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 10 2012, 22:39) lvqcl- ... Mar 11 2012, 12:50
NullC QUOTE (googlebot @ Mar 11 2012, 04:50) Th... Mar 12 2012, 01:30
KMD The movement of the quantization levels by ditheri... Mar 12 2012, 15:58
KMD Thanks for the discussion.
My conclusion on this... Mar 19 2012, 11:14
Arnold B. Krueger QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 19 2012, 06:14) Thanks f... Mar 19 2012, 13:39
KMD Hello Arnold
Signal to noise ratio, and resoluti... Mar 19 2012, 14:28
Arnold B. Krueger QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 19 2012, 09:28) Signal t... Mar 20 2012, 19:23
icstm Is Arnold not saying that the output signal might ... Mar 19 2012, 15:14
KMD Hi icstm
An analogue recording system has infini... Mar 19 2012, 15:19
Arnold B. Krueger QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 19 2012, 10:19) Hi icstm... Mar 20 2012, 19:30
2Bdecided Until you define the meaning of the term "res... Mar 19 2012, 15:24
KMD Resolution is the smallest detail a system can rec... Mar 19 2012, 15:29
2Bdecided QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 19 2012, 14:29) Resoluti... Mar 19 2012, 15:48
KMD Sampling has nothing to do with it . Sampling is t... Mar 19 2012, 16:00
icstm yes, but what makes you say a analogue signal can ... Mar 19 2012, 16:07
KMD I did not mention accuracy and precision. The subj... Mar 19 2012, 16:11
2Bdecided QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 19 2012, 15:11) I did no... Mar 19 2012, 19:03
icstm resolution is comparible with precision it is the ... Mar 19 2012, 17:14
knutinh Being able to recreate infinitely small signals wo... Mar 19 2012, 23:32
2Bdecided QUOTE (knutinh @ Mar 19 2012, 22:32) Bein... Mar 20 2012, 10:38
KMD - icstm , you are confusing resolution with sign... Mar 20 2012, 10:57
Arnold B. Krueger QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 20 2012, 05:57) - icstm ... Mar 20 2012, 19:33
icstm no, I am saying that resolution is only relevant i... Mar 20 2012, 11:28
KMD No, the small variations in the waveform are there... Mar 20 2012, 11:57
greynol Why do you keep insisting that dither must be pres... Mar 20 2012, 15:09
2Bdecided QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 20 2012, 14:09) Why ... Mar 20 2012, 17:33
greynol I'm more than a bit skeptical of that. Mar 20 2012, 18:11

pdq QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 20 2012, 13:11) I... Mar 20 2012, 18:36

Arnold B. Krueger QUOTE (pdq @ Mar 20 2012, 13:36) QUOTE (g... Mar 20 2012, 19:36


greynol QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Mar 20 2012, 11... Mar 20 2012, 19:42


2Bdecided QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 20 2012, 18:42) QUOT... Mar 20 2012, 19:52


Arnold B. Krueger QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 20 2012, 14:52) QU... Mar 20 2012, 20:02

2Bdecided QUOTE (pdq @ Mar 20 2012, 17:36) I'm ... Mar 20 2012, 19:43

greynol QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 20 2012, 11:43) Th... Mar 20 2012, 19:54

2Bdecided QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 20 2012, 18:54) QUOT... Mar 20 2012, 19:59


drewfx QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 20 2012, 13:59) Th... Mar 20 2012, 21:13

2Bdecided QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 20 2012, 18:54) not ... Mar 20 2012, 20:03
Speedskater QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 20 2012, 12:33) Fo... Mar 21 2012, 00:34
2Bdecided QUOTE (Speedskater @ Mar 20 2012, 23:34) ... Mar 21 2012, 11:02
greynol Are you trying to tell me inter-sample points don... Mar 20 2012, 18:46
Arnold B. Krueger QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 20 2012, 13:46) Are ... Mar 20 2012, 19:41
pdq The reconstruction filter only filters out frequen... Mar 20 2012, 18:53
greynol QUOTE (pdq @ Mar 20 2012, 10:53) leaving ... Mar 20 2012, 19:06
greynol I edited my previous response to include your foll... Mar 20 2012, 20:02
greynol QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 20 2012, 12:03) Fr... Mar 20 2012, 20:08
2Bdecided Ah, maybe we're at cross purposes, and don... Mar 20 2012, 20:09
googlebot Aren't those pictures just showing that not en... Mar 20 2012, 20:30
pdq It's always present. Dither simply replaces mu... Mar 20 2012, 21:30
drewfx Understood. The point I'm making is that the ... Mar 20 2012, 21:39
greynol QUOTE (drewfx @ Mar 20 2012, 13:39) The p... Mar 20 2012, 21:43
googlebot QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 20 2012, 21:43) QUOT... Mar 20 2012, 22:07
2Bdecided QUOTE (googlebot @ Mar 20 2012, 21:07) 2B... Mar 21 2012, 11:03
greynol The image of the dithered 50Hz wave is pretty much... Mar 20 2012, 21:40
greynol Yet the "error" plainly indicates the av... Mar 21 2012, 00:00
KMD At what stage did you add the dither noise David.... Mar 21 2012, 12:37
2Bdecided QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 11:37) At what ... Mar 21 2012, 13:10
KMD The fact that you are sweeping the frequency adds ... Mar 21 2012, 13:25
2Bdecided QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 12:25) We don... Mar 21 2012, 15:07
pdq What would be the point? We have established that ... Mar 21 2012, 14:50
2Bdecided QUOTE (pdq @ Mar 21 2012, 13:50) What wou... Mar 21 2012, 15:40
KMD pdq -look at the 2nd image in 2bdecided post68 a... Mar 21 2012, 15:08
2Bdecided QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 14:08) pdq -loo... Mar 21 2012, 15:48
KMD David - What does the frequncey spectrum analys... Mar 21 2012, 15:35
2Bdecided QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 14:35) David - ... Mar 21 2012, 15:45
KMD Use the FFT to check that the harmonics are not th... Mar 21 2012, 16:07
2Bdecided QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 15:07) Use the ... Mar 21 2012, 16:12
KMD do the fft to confirm that the harmonics are not t... Mar 21 2012, 16:16
2Bdecided QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 15:16) do the f... Mar 21 2012, 16:34
Rotareneg Delta-sigma modulation must be a hoax. Mar 21 2012, 16:40
KMD " yes Boss" LOL
I'm glad we can h... Mar 21 2012, 17:11
KMD The image in post 77 is way to square. A reconstr... Mar 21 2012, 17:36
2Bdecided QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 16:36) The imag... Mar 21 2012, 17:46
KMD When you say 8x oversampled to simulate reconstruc... Mar 21 2012, 18:02
lvqcl QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 21:02) which co... Mar 21 2012, 18:49
greynol QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 10:02) is a gen... Mar 21 2012, 20:40
Arnold B. Krueger QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 13:02) But to s... Mar 21 2012, 21:25
drewfx QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 12:02) But to s... Mar 22 2012, 01:18
2Bdecided QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 21 2012, 17:02) When you... Mar 22 2012, 11:13
greynol QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 22 2012, 03:13) Be... Mar 22 2012, 13:55
pdq QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 22 2012, 08:55) Sinc... Mar 22 2012, 14:24
2Bdecided QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 22 2012, 12:55) My t... Mar 22 2012, 14:57
KMD QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 20 2012, 18:52) I... Mar 22 2012, 10:00
2Bdecided QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 22 2012, 09:00) Because ... Mar 22 2012, 11:03
greynol What about ringing? Mar 22 2012, 14:41
WernerO QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 22 2012, 14:41) What... Mar 22 2012, 14:59![]() ![]() |
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