Big-label mastering engineers don’t understand lossy formats, Article about Mastered for iTunes |
Big-label mastering engineers don’t understand lossy formats, Article about Mastered for iTunes |
Mar 27 2012, 09:12
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#1
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![]() Group: Members (Donating) Posts: 756 Joined: 12-March 05 From: Kiel, Germany Member No.: 20561 |
Just found this article via twitter, circled among mastering "engineers" (in fact Heba Kadry reposted it, the girl who mastered the latest Mars Volta album, which reaches -12.79 dB on my RG scans, and is generally mastered in a horrible fashion).
This further backs my impression that most of them don't have a single clue of what they are doing. The section about the mastering practices of Rubin and Meller are especially eye-opening to me. Masterdisk "engineers" also apparently are now out to rape the Rush back catalogue. Further down they cite phase-reverse tests to prove AAC files are different from the original (wow, REALLY?). The good thing is, I can use this article to decide which releases to avoid in the future. But I'm really at a loss what we can do beside that. I'm really fed up with mastering "engineers" destroying music releases. This post has been edited by Kohlrabi: Mar 27 2012, 09:17 -------------------- Audiophiles live in constant fear of jitter.
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Mar 30 2012, 21:41
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#2
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Group: Members Posts: 4129 Joined: 2-September 02 Member No.: 3264 |
At least from my point of view (and as I mentioned i my first post), the real story is just how poorly Apple has managed to communicate the goals of the "Mastered For iTunes" program. Before I mocked their description for its almost condescending tone to the reader, but really I think even much of what they have tried to explain has been lost. For example, in the original quote from Muller he attempts to determine what the frequency response of an AAC encoder is:
“I can tell you what doesn’t work,” he said. “One of my initial trial-and-error methods was to take digital fingerprints of both versions of the song, and then try to apply a [compensating EQ] to the CD version and pump that back through the AAC encoder.” Now this is a perfectly logical thing to do to a speaker or a tube amplifier. But its just plain insane to expect that to work on a perceptual audio encoder. No one with the slightest clue of whats going on would expect that to work. But to someone still living in the pre-digital era, its all they would have to go on. Now to Muller's credit, he does correctly deduce that a perceptual audio encoder is very, very different from an amplifier through experimental means: "Well, the problem with that is that input does not equal output. It’s highly program dependent, and you rarely get the same thing twice in a row." Unfortunately, while he has (thankfully!) given up trying to compensate for perceptual encoding with EQ, he has no idea why AAC encoding works differently then an amplifier. The notion that its actually analyzing a signal and converting it to a new form in a nonlinear, adaptive manner without actually altering the intensity per frequency is lost on him. Thus while Apple has given him tools, they have failed to explain to him adequately what it is those tools are meant to do or why he should be using them. And so he (and most of the people quoted) seem to be grasping the dark trying to relate an ill-explained set of objective handed to them by Apple to (irrelevant) experience using more conventional audio equipment like microphones and amplifiers. I suppose that while we have criticized Rubin, Muller, Shepherd and company for not understanding their trade, in some sense this isn't really their fault. They've been handed a complicated goal by Apple with very little explanation or guidance. And while yes we would hope they would take the time to learn their tools even without guidance, perhaps given their time constraints. their age, and their other responsibilities this is unrealistic. |
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Mar 30 2012, 21:53
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#3
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Group: Super Moderator Posts: 4329 Joined: 23-June 06 Member No.: 32180 |
And while yes we would hope they would take the time to learn their tools even without guidance, perhaps given their time constraints. their age, and their other responsibilities this is unrealistic. their age What does that have to do with it? Actually, maybe it’s best just to pretend that bit isn’t there. A mud-fest will solve nothing, and I certainly don’t want to be the one to have started it. |
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Kohlrabi Big-label mastering engineers don’t understand lossy formats Mar 27 2012, 09:12
evereux QUOTE Apple’s 256 kbps AAC files are supposed to s... Mar 27 2012, 09:26
skamp They obviously think what they do is teh shit. Nor... Mar 27 2012, 09:32
2Bdecided I think you're being a little harsh on the art... Mar 27 2012, 09:35
Kohlrabi QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 27 2012, 10:35) I ... Mar 27 2012, 09:44
Nessuno QUOTE (Kohlrabi @ Mar 27 2012, 09:44) Jus... Mar 27 2012, 10:55

DonP QUOTE (Nessuno @ Mar 27 2012, 05:55) QUOT... Mar 27 2012, 12:38
dhromed QUOTE (Kohlrabi @ Mar 27 2012, 09:44) I... Mar 27 2012, 14:10
Fandango @greynol: Oh, here it is explained by a guy named ... Mar 29 2012, 05:14
skamp QUOTE (Fandango @ Mar 29 2012, 06:14) PS:... Mar 31 2012, 10:59
KMD Thats round the wrong way, the article said the ... Mar 27 2012, 10:14
Arnold B. Krueger QUOTE (KMD @ Mar 27 2012, 05:14) Thats r... Mar 27 2012, 17:15
Porcus I bet the people behind Monkey's Audio will wa... Mar 27 2012, 11:15
RobWansbeck Vlado Meller is reported as saying :
“ The high... Mar 27 2012, 16:11
greynol http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st... Mar 27 2012, 16:14
TrustScience QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 27 2012, 03:35) I ... Mar 28 2012, 23:39
Canar QUOTE (TrustScience @ Mar 28 2012, 15:39)... Mar 29 2012, 03:12

TrustScience QUOTE (Canar @ Mar 28 2012, 21:12) QUOTE ... Mar 29 2012, 14:24

greynol QUOTE (TrustScience @ Mar 29 2012, 06:24)... Mar 29 2012, 15:22


krabapple QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 29 2012, 10:22) So t... Mar 29 2012, 17:14



greynol QUOTE (krabapple @ Mar 29 2012, 09:14) Yo... Mar 29 2012, 18:03


TrustScience QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 29 2012, 09:22) Your... Mar 29 2012, 17:18


greynol QUOTE (TrustScience @ Mar 29 2012, 09:18)... Mar 29 2012, 17:39


TrustScience QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 29 2012, 11:39) QUOT... Mar 29 2012, 17:49


saratoga QUOTE (TrustScience @ Mar 29 2012, 12:49)... Mar 29 2012, 18:02

greynol QUOTE (TrustScience @ Mar 29 2012, 06:24)... Mar 29 2012, 15:37


krabapple QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 29 2012, 10:37) QUOT... Mar 29 2012, 17:17


TrustScience QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 29 2012, 09:37) QUOT... Mar 29 2012, 17:32



saratoga QUOTE (TrustScience @ Mar 29 2012, 12:32)... Mar 29 2012, 18:00



2Bdecided QUOTE (TrustScience @ Mar 29 2012, 16:32)... Mar 29 2012, 18:26



TrustScience QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 29 2012, 12:26) QU... Mar 29 2012, 18:52



Canar QUOTE (TrustScience @ Mar 29 2012, 10:52)... Mar 29 2012, 18:58




TrustScience QUOTE (Canar @ Mar 29 2012, 12:58) QUOTE ... Mar 29 2012, 19:02




greynol QUOTE (TrustScience @ Mar 29 2012, 09:32)... Mar 29 2012, 19:04




Canar QUOTE (TrustScience @ Mar 29 2012, 10:52)... Mar 29 2012, 19:04



saratoga QUOTE (TrustScience @ Mar 29 2012, 13:52)... Mar 29 2012, 19:37



2Bdecided QUOTE (TrustScience @ Mar 29 2012, 17:52)... Mar 30 2012, 10:19



TrustScience QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 30 2012, 04:19) It... Mar 30 2012, 17:19



saratoga QUOTE (TrustScience @ Mar 30 2012, 12:19)... Mar 30 2012, 19:06




TrustScience That's true. I did make a couple clarifying ed... Mar 30 2012, 20:13



2Bdecided QUOTE (TrustScience @ Mar 30 2012, 17:19)... Mar 31 2012, 10:33



krabapple QUOTE (TrustScience @ Mar 30 2012, 12:19)... Mar 31 2012, 21:59


saratoga QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 29 2012, 10:37) QUOT... Mar 29 2012, 18:19

2Bdecided QUOTE (TrustScience @ Mar 29 2012, 13:24)... Mar 29 2012, 16:45

krabapple QUOTE (TrustScience @ Mar 29 2012, 09:24)... Mar 29 2012, 17:10

saratoga QUOTE (TrustScience @ Mar 29 2012, 09:24)... Mar 29 2012, 17:48

TrustScience QUOTE (saratoga @ Mar 29 2012, 11:48) The... Mar 29 2012, 18:02

saratoga QUOTE (TrustScience @ Mar 29 2012, 13:02)... Mar 29 2012, 18:13
saratoga QUOTE (TrustScience @ Mar 28 2012, 18:39)... Mar 29 2012, 04:29

greynol QUOTE the Mastered for iTunes process uses a healt... Mar 29 2012, 04:46
Fandango QUOTE (Canar @ Mar 29 2012, 04:12) QUOTE ... Mar 29 2012, 04:34
IgorC QUOTE (TrustScience @ Mar 28 2012, 19:39)... Apr 6 2012, 23:17
greynol I read the paper by Apple back when we first discu... Mar 29 2012, 05:23
Fandango Ah, it has been discussed before and Apple actuall... Mar 29 2012, 05:30
greynol I provided a link already. Go to the first post i... Mar 29 2012, 05:35
Fandango QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 29 2012, 06:35) I pr... Mar 29 2012, 05:51
saratoga I think the most damning thing about the mastered ... Mar 29 2012, 05:53
Fandango QUOTE (saratoga @ Mar 29 2012, 06:53) Ess... Mar 29 2012, 06:04
greynol As I said in the dedicated discussion, Apple is ad... Mar 29 2012, 05:59
saratoga QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 29 2012, 00:59) As I... Mar 29 2012, 06:12
greynol RE: Big-label mastering engineers don’t understand lossy formats Mar 29 2012, 06:30
2Bdecided It's what happens when the art-world and scien... Mar 29 2012, 09:36
drewfx Perhaps interviewing someone with a background in ... Mar 29 2012, 19:02
greynol When I am in a position to improve something of mi... Mar 30 2012, 16:49
TrustScience QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 30 2012, 10:49) When... Mar 30 2012, 17:40
saratoga QUOTE (TrustScience @ Mar 30 2012, 12:40)... Mar 30 2012, 19:13
greynol I'll try not to make this a long post as I... Mar 30 2012, 20:47
saratoga QUOTE (db1989 @ Mar 30 2012, 16:53) QUOTE... Mar 30 2012, 22:23
greynol Aside from db1989's point in the next post whi... Mar 30 2012, 21:52
greynol Since others are piling on while admittedly not ad... Mar 31 2012, 22:14
Axon Perhaps TrustScience would have found our reaction... Apr 1 2012, 17:26
Kohlrabi QUOTE (Axon @ Apr 1 2012, 18:26) In that ... Apr 1 2012, 18:09
knutinh QUOTE (Kohlrabi @ Apr 1 2012, 19:09) Warr... Apr 1 2012, 22:06
Kohlrabi QUOTE (knutinh @ Apr 1 2012, 23:06) QUOTE... Apr 1 2012, 22:22
knutinh QUOTE (Kohlrabi @ Apr 1 2012, 23:22) My p... Apr 2 2012, 09:00
skamp QUOTE (knutinh @ Apr 2 2012, 10:00) let u... Apr 2 2012, 09:15
knutinh QUOTE (skamp @ Apr 2 2012, 10:15) iTunes ... Apr 2 2012, 12:31
krabapple It's possible that calling famous mastering en... Apr 2 2012, 07:17
Kohlrabi The notion that mastering engineers who deliberate... Apr 2 2012, 13:07
db1989 QUOTE (Kohlrabi @ Apr 2 2012, 13:07) I al... Apr 2 2012, 13:25
Kohlrabi Thank you very much, db1989. That was what I had i... Apr 2 2012, 13:48
db1989 Great! Apr 2 2012, 13:50
absinthe33 QUOTE (Kohlrabi @ Mar 27 2012, 10:12) Jus... Apr 2 2012, 15:22
dhromed QUOTE (absinthe33 @ Apr 2 2012, 15:22) br... Apr 2 2012, 16:08
absinthe33 QUOTE (dhromed @ Apr 2 2012, 17:08) QUOTE... Apr 2 2012, 23:04
splice QUOTE (absinthe33 @ Apr 2 2012, 15:04) ..... Apr 2 2012, 23:52
2Bdecided Some lossy codecs can introduce audible temporal s... Apr 2 2012, 15:28
skamp Heba Kadry again: "While Im all for setting a... Apr 4 2012, 15:23
Kohlrabi QUOTE (skamp @ Apr 4 2012, 16:23) Heba Ka... Apr 4 2012, 22:29
splice QUOTE (Kohlrabi @ Apr 4 2012, 14:29) ... ... Apr 5 2012, 01:33
2Bdecided ...which leads back to Justin's latest article... Apr 4 2012, 16:25
2Bdecided QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Apr 4 2012, 16:25) ...... Apr 5 2012, 11:24
stephan_g ^Agreed. A "decent stereo", btw, include... Apr 5 2012, 16:30
krabapple QUOTE (stephan_g @ Apr 5 2012, 11:30) Why... Apr 5 2012, 18:04
2Bdecided QUOTE (stephan_g @ Apr 5 2012, 16:30) ^Ag... Apr 5 2012, 18:43
stephan_g Don't know about that, but I was just browsing... Apr 5 2012, 21:56
markanini QUOTE (stephan_g @ Apr 5 2012, 21:56) Not... Apr 6 2012, 02:01
krabapple QUOTE (stephan_g @ Apr 5 2012, 16:56) Not... Apr 6 2012, 20:28![]() ![]() |
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