Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl, Podcast casts its skeptical eye on digital audio Options

[rick.hughes]

Skeptoid: Digital vs Vinyl

[Fandango]

Didn't he dodge the big question anyway? He said that because the mediums are so different there's no point in ABX'ing them. I doubt he will challenge the theoretical limitations of the vinyl format. He simply claims it's inaudible and not ABX'able anyway, so it doesn't matter. The thing that I'm sceptical about is the first one, sure the effects of vinyl cannot be properly tested with actual vinyl because there are too many giveaways that have nothing to do with the way the format works, crackle, pops and noises feed into from the turntable for instance, but what one could do is simulate the theoretical physical limitations of vinyl records along with the post-production techniques digitally and take such processed samples and compare them to the same source samples treated as if they were produced for a CD. To answer the question he raises right from the start, if the limitations of vinyl alone are even audible, I think is doable, if one can eliminate all interfering factors, from the mics to the mastering and beyond.

Of course the results will hardly be applyable to the real world, because the overall real-world setups of vinyl listening and CD listening and the real-world preparations before each mediums are pressed are as he clearly pointed out too distinct from another.

I mean isn't it unscientific to claim one can do a proper ABX test between vinyl and CD under real-world conditions and say it is likely people can hear a difference because of how vinyl works and not because of all the other factors that also shape the sound that goes in a studio mic and come out a home speaker, them being different for vinyl and CD? Well, I would be very curious if the characteristics of vinyl playback can be simulated as a whole and whether it has been done before, maybe even just for certain aspects of the format.

This post has been edited by Fandango: Mar 29 2012, 03:59

[krabapple]

Didn't he dodge the big question anyway? He said that because the mediums are so different there's no point in ABX'ing them. I doubt he will challenge the theoretical limitations of the vinyl format. He simply claims it's inaudible and not ABX'able anyway, so it doesn't matter. The thing that I'm sceptical about is the first one, sure the effects of vinyl cannot be properly tested with actual vinyl because there are too many giveaways that have nothing to do with the way the format works, crackle, pops and noises feed into from the turntable for instance,

In the real world, an LP doesn't necessarily acquire new crackles and pops and noises between playing it once to record it digitally, and playing it again to compare it to the digital copy. So that is not necessarily a giveaway.

This post has been edited by krabapple: Mar 29 2012, 17:22

[mzil]

In the real world, an LP doesn't necessarily acquire new crackles and pops and noises between playing it once to record it digitally, and playing it again to compare it to the digital copy. So that is not necessarily a giveaway.

Although there are other causes for it, audible wow in record playback due to fluctuations in the platter's speed, will occur in random locations for each playback, so one couldn't even fairly ABX an LP to the same LP (a clone with identical pops/ticks) on the same model of turntable! There's a giveaway, at least for music where the wow might be audible. [Sustained piano chords and flute are often used to look for this.]

Synchronizing the two is also a nightmare, or an LP to a CD for that matter. So even if there are indeed no new pops or ticks on a second playing of an LP, the "giveaway" problem still exists.

What I'd do is the Meyer and Moran A/D/A loop trick (where they compared SACD to their CD recorder's quick A/D/A version of it); I would take the output of the LP and digitize it, but then bring it back to analog, almost instantaneously . This gets rid of the "giveaway" problems of subsequent LP playbacks due to all these factors. The wow (including flutter) components and the pops/ticks are the same, plus the two are synchronized.

This post has been edited by mzil: Mar 29 2012, 22:46

[knutinh]

What I'd do is the Meyer and Moran A/D/A loop trick (where they compared SACD to their CD recorder's quick A/D/A version of it); I would take the output of the LP and digitize it, but then bring it back to analog, almost instantaneously . This gets rid of the "giveaway" problems of subsequent LP playbacks due to all these factors. The wow (including flutter) components and the pops/ticks are the same, plus the two are synchronized.

Or, do a high-resolution digital recording of vinyl, play it back at high-resolution and CD-resolution in an ABX test.

-k

[mzil]

Or, do a high-resolution digital recording of vinyl, play it back at high-resolution and CD-resolution in an ABX test.

-k

That way wouldn't be comparing direct analog LP sound to digital, though; it would be comparing two kinds of digital sound.

[greynol]

Ignoring CDDA, if you are attempting to suggest that high-res digital is unable to capture vinyl (or the master used to create it either before or after RMAA equalization was applied) 100% transparently, what is your basis for this?

This post has been edited by greynol: Mar 30 2012, 16:03

[mzil]

Ignoring CDDA, if you are attempting to suggest that high-res digital is unable to capture vinyl (or the master used to create it either before or after RMAA equalization was applied) 100% transparently...

I'm not.
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New topic for the general audience: I'm unable to read the original poster's link, because, at least through my browser/settings, when I click on it it brings me to a page that looks like I got the correct article, I think, however there seems to be many, many of the opening paragraphs (over a full page) completely obscured with a large, green table of contents starting with "About Skeptoid". If I click on any of the listings in it I still get this large, obscuring block, preventing me from seeing the actual page underneath. [Later, an invitation widow to subscribe also appears, however that I am easily able to close].

I don't really want to subscribe to skeptoid.com, but is that the only way to read the full article without this superimposed listing of articles? Or could some settings of my popup blocker, cookie blocking, or other settings be what's stopping me? I'm not well versed in how to deal with this sort of problem so any help would be appreciated. I am using Internet Explorer 9, if that matters.

This post has been edited by mzil: Mar 30 2012, 18:10

[greynol]

I'm not.

That's good. Perhaps it's only me, but I think sight has been lost on the target.

I feel the argument reverts to the inevitable, "as a delivery format, is there anything that vinyl can provide over CDDA that is audible to humans?" Right now it appears that one can only answer yes when the the order of the two is reversed.