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Neil Young’s new audio format, “revolutionary new audio music system…highest digital resolution poss”
greynol
post Sep 6 2013, 01:51
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That remains to be seen.

What if they turn out to be nicely equalized or flat transfers from the best quality tapes with no DRC in a DRM-free lossless format that costs less than a CD?


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binaryhermit
post Sep 6 2013, 02:15
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That'd be nice. But I'm skeptical.
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Kohlrabi
post Sep 6 2013, 09:18
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QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 6 2013, 02:51) *
What if they turn out to be nicely equalized or flat transfers from the best quality tapes with no DRC in a DRM-free lossless format that costs less than a CD?
Yes, because with current technology that is completely impossible to achieve.

This post has been edited by Kohlrabi: Sep 6 2013, 09:27


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2Bdecided
post Sep 6 2013, 09:37
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QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 6 2013, 01:51) *
What if they turn out to be nicely equalized or flat transfers from the best quality tapes with no DRC in a DRM-free lossless format that costs less than a CD?
Then for most people's tastes (even most people who call themselves audiophiles) they will need sweetening/EQ-ing/compressing/distorting in some way to make them sound acceptable. Hence they'll prefer the vinyl version wink.gif

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David.

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zumacraig
post Sep 6 2013, 12:10
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QUOTE (binaryhermit @ Sep 5 2013, 16:15) *
The sanitized version of my thoughts is that it sounds like snake oil and manure. And is probably insanely overpriced, especially for what it's likely to be. And it wouldn't surprise me if it was technically inferior to CD.


It probably will be worse than CD. It'll probably have some sort of special PONO mastering, a la itunes mastering, that people will buy right up. The mastering will still be bad. Not to mention the player. I'm just infuriated by the fools commenting on how great this will be. So stupid! This is late capitalism 101. Market AIR and people will buy it.
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zumacraig
post Sep 6 2013, 12:14
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QUOTE (Kohlrabi @ Sep 6 2013, 00:18) *
QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 6 2013, 02:51) *
What if they turn out to be nicely equalized or flat transfers from the best quality tapes with no DRC in a DRM-free lossless format that costs less than a CD?
Yes, because with current technology that is completely impossible to achieve.


we don't even need any new technology. go on amazon and buy a used initial pressing of a CD from the 80s for $5. there you have it.

this stuff is happening everywhere, even the infamous Vapor Trails is being remixed and re-released this fall. there is no doubt it will will still be brick-walled.
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gib
post Sep 6 2013, 12:36
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QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Sep 4 2013, 22:42) *
QUOTE (gib @ Sep 5 2013, 00:59) *
marketing-speak driven product of dubious value
I think at least some of the people involved believe what they are saying. While there's some hyperbole, they're not intentionally out to fool anyone. Unless you count the fact that they've probably fooled themselves.

Very true. In fairness, the main thing I wanted to say in my original post is that the name of the product bothers me quite a bit. My off the cuff description of what the product sounds like was just a stepping stone to get there. I mean, this is an audio forum - I couldn't comment solely on the language, right? wink.gif
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Juha
post Sep 6 2013, 12:38
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Complete world ?

Juha
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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Sep 6 2013, 12:40
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QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 5 2013, 19:51) *
That remains to be seen.

What if they turn out to be nicely equalized or flat transfers from the best quality tapes with no DRC in a DRM-free lossless format that costs less than a CD?


What if the government actually cut taxes for everybody, without cutting back on services? ;-)

Since we already have sonically transparent formats, and the storage and transmission bandwidth to exploit them without straining, the fact that they have invented yet another incompatible format says it all. This is just a rerun of the SACD mistake, only with a different format. The rest of your wish list is just administrative changes.

This post has been edited by Arnold B. Krueger: Sep 6 2013, 12:41
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bandpass
post Sep 6 2013, 12:55
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QUOTE (zumacraig @ Sep 6 2013, 12:10) *
The mastering will still be bad. Not to mention the player.

The player will probably be decent; it'll have to be, 'cos people will test it and compare it the S4 and the iPhone5(S), which as I understand, are very good. See here for example: http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/iphone-5/audio-quality.htm

(Speaking w.r.t. dynamic range compression:) Uncompressed masters with optional, adjustable compression at playback time could be a compelling combination. Maybe a format that stores the specific compression parameters for the track along with the uncompressed audio; playback processor then generates clean and smashed, with a fader between the two, set dependent on the ambient noise level.
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zumacraig
post Sep 6 2013, 14:00
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QUOTE (bandpass @ Sep 6 2013, 03:55) *
QUOTE (zumacraig @ Sep 6 2013, 12:10) *
The mastering will still be bad. Not to mention the player.

The player will probably be decent; it'll have to be, 'cos people will test it and compare it the S4 and the iPhone5(S), which as I understand, are very good. See here for example: http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/iphone-5/audio-quality.htm

(Speaking w.r.t. dynamic range compression:) Uncompressed masters with optional, adjustable compression at playback time could be a compelling combination. Maybe a format that stores the specific compression parameters for the track along with the uncompressed audio; playback processor then generates clean and smashed, with a fader between the two, set dependent on the ambient noise level.



Right, but I don't think Pono is concerned with mastering. They're focused on the buzz of hi-res, re-selling it to the masses, yet again. For the industry to keep making profit, they will have to keep coming up with more ways to market the same thing over and over, whether it be the actual music or the player. They will never just release good masters, like we want. That would be the end of it. They sure aren't making any money off new music.
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drewfx
post Sep 6 2013, 17:05
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Am I missing something? Hasn't the market already shown there's very limited interest in "better than CD quality" audio formats? Are we to expect Neil is going to attract a legion of new believers?

But what I am looking forward to is finding out how this compares to vinyl. laugh.gif
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zipr
post Sep 6 2013, 17:06
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According to the Facebook page, PONO...
"starts at the source: artist-approved studio masters we’ve been given special access to."

So I wonder if most of the supposed increase in quality will be due to working with different masters rather than a different digital format?

https://www.facebook.com/NeilYoungPono
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greynol
post Sep 6 2013, 17:58
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Nah, we were already essentially told to ignore that part of his schtick. wink.gif


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db1989
post Sep 6 2013, 18:33
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QUOTE (drewfx @ Sep 6 2013, 17:05) *
Are we to expect Neil is going to attract a legion of new believers?
Hopefully not and he will only attract the attention of the usual core crowd of troobeleevers. But we run the risk of him suckering a new batch of people into all this nonsense.

QUOTE
But what I am looking forward to is finding out how this compares to vinyl. laugh.gif
No doubt they will all omit to mention vinyl since, although this revolutionary, phenomenal, transcendent new digital technology is going to be the best digital ever, digital is inherently inferior to wonderful analogue and will remain so for all of eternity. rolleyes.gif
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Hotsoup
post Sep 6 2013, 18:46
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QUOTE (db1989 @ Sep 6 2013, 10:33) *
But we run the risk of him suckering a new batch of people into all this nonsense.
This has kind of been my fear. Lots of posters at other sites seemed to have accepted or even enthusiastically embraced 24/192 and DSD. I think they'll jump on Pono likewise. They're the typical crowd but the amount of hype they're creating is what's concerning me.
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Wombat
post Sep 6 2013, 19:14
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Yes, it is a tradegy. I remember having some discussion back a while with a member on Slimdevices forum that was impressed with the better dynamics and other audiophile benefits of the Love Supreme 24bit version! No argument could be made to convince him otherwise, it must be the bits! He was descriping that with audiophile vocabular of the finest art.
Now to the funny part. This Love Supreme version was pulled from selling later because of having only 16bit content padded with zeroes to 24bit...
The same person now favours DSD against PCM of course and posts about the beauty of hires releases all the time. Such people are priceless for the business.

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Lashiec
post Sep 6 2013, 20:00
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QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 6 2013, 01:51) *
That remains to be seen.

What if they turn out to be nicely equalized or flat transfers from the best quality tapes with no DRC in a DRM-free lossless format that costs less than a CD?

Well, that would be nice, but... what exactly is Pono achieving that couldn't be done by the already established download services? Wasn't iTunes asking the labels to provide high-resolution masters for future proofing? Can't they poke Apple and Amazon so they start offering a goddamn lossless option already?

Me thinks this is a just an elaborate marketing scheme for the majors to cut out the middlemen of their business. If you have to endure Neil Young snake oil, so be it, I guess the new "remasters" are the just the same masters Amazon and Apple have, 50+ year old musicians can't tell the difference anyway. And with Universal involved, DRM is probably in as well, as they are the only label still insisting on using digital watermarks.

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greynol
post Sep 6 2013, 20:04
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QUOTE (Lashiec @ Sep 6 2013, 12:00) *
what exactly is Pono achieving that couldn't be done by the already established download services?

Apparently you and a few others already know so why are you asking me?


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Lashiec
post Sep 6 2013, 20:14
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QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 6 2013, 20:04) *
Apparently you and a few others already know so why are you asking me?

Rhetorical question before ranting a bit. Had to choose a target to ask it wink.gif
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greynol
post Sep 6 2013, 20:21
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I'm just cranky after having a private discussion with an idiot espousing how 16 bits was inadequate for a format that has the equivalent noise of 13 bits on the best day of its life (vinyl) as well as the benefits of SACD over CDDA using arguments from authority to make his case.

Never mind me.


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zumacraig
post Sep 7 2013, 01:41
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QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 6 2013, 11:21) *
I'm just cranky after having a private discussion with an idiot espousing how 16 bits was inadequate for a format that has the equivalent noise of 13 bits on the best day of its life (vinyl) as well as the benefits of SACD over CDDA using arguments from authority to make his case.

Never mind me.


This whole thing is an argument from authority. Good point. The authority being a rock star. Aren't they they opposite of authority? cool.gif
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extrabigmehdi
post Sep 7 2013, 02:25
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Well there's an article related to pono in wikipedia, if you hadn't read it yet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pono_%28audio_format%29

Where I learn that pono is not just a file format but also a player (I guess foobar won't play pono).
Pono reportedly has backing from major record labels Warner, Sony, and Universal, and has signed a full agreement with Warner. In fact, the "Big Three" record labels, have reportedly all agreed to remaster their music catalogs for the device.


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Mach-X
post Sep 7 2013, 02:28
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Poor Monty must be distraught...his well thought out, well dictated, layman's terms using videos have not convinced Neil Young...why does he have to be from Canada...
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db1989
post Sep 7 2013, 02:35
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QUOTE (extrabigmehdi @ Sep 7 2013, 02:25) *
Pono reportedly has backing from major record labels Warner, Sony, and Universal, and has signed a full agreement with Warner. In fact, the "Big Three" record labels, have reportedly all agreed to remaster their music catalogs for the device.
Wow! I just managed to attain even less respect for them.

However, Flea of the Red Hot Chili Peppers said "It's not like some vague thing that you need dogs' ears to hear. It's a drastic difference."
Yeah, I bet Californication is crying out for PONO so that we poor, ignorant listeners can finally appreciate its stunningly good production. And to think some people say RHCP get less relevant every day.
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