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Updated --dm-preset switches (Was: "New very hard to encode
Dibrom
post Oct 7 2001, 08:15
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(Thread split from: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/showth...ost&threadid=72)

Alright.. bumping this thread might be relevant due to some changes I've implemented in the --dm-preset switches in LAME(which I am still tweaking for a new revision btw). I will release a new compile as well as some cvs commits shortly.

Here are a few samples which have traditionally shown problems with the --dm-preset switches unless -Z was used. The -std is the standard --dm-preset, -std-Z is the standard --dm-preset with -Z, and -alt is the new "standard" dm-preset.

Short:

- Short with --dm-preset standard

- Short with --dm-preset standard -Z

- Short with --dm-preset standard-alt (new mode)

Fatboy:

- Fatboy with --dm-preset standard

- Fatboy with --dm-preset standard -Z

- Fatboy with --dm-preset standard-alt (new mode)
(See a few posts below for an updated sample)

Sample of "normal" music to show how similar the two modes are on non-difficult clips:

- 41_30sec with --dm-preset standard

- 41_30sec with --dm-preset standard-alt (new mode)

The difference in quality on the more difficult samples is quite huge. Of course, these samples are still not perfect, and they probably will never be with MP3, but this is a big improvement in quality nevertheless.

The bitrate increase you see on the difficult samples is partially related to fixing the -Z issue, but it is also partially related to an attempt to improve pre-echo handling. I'm still working on the latter aspect though.
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Dibrom
post Oct 7 2001, 08:39
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Another difficult sample which has been floating around recently:

- Ravebase with --dm-preset standard

- Ravebase with --dm-preset standard -Z

- Ravebase with --dm-preset standard-alt (new mode)
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Wombat
post Oct 7 2001, 15:16
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Hello all and dibrom,

Excuse when i hear that fatboy is even worse at least in the middlepart from 1.7 to 3.7 sec with the alternate compile contra std-Z and this when alternate even needs 38kbit more on average. :confused:

I canīt say the alternate mode does anything better with short than std-Z

But today it may not be my best day for do listening, i had nearly no sleep.

Wombat
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JohnV
post Oct 7 2001, 15:18
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I urge people not to test these yet.. biggrin.gif
Just heard the latest version of fatboy, and it's MUCH better!


--------------------
Juha Laaksonheimo
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Dibrom
post Oct 7 2001, 15:21
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Hi Wombat!

Since I've posted the last fatboy sample I've been tweaking lame some more and have come up with an even better sample, which you can get here:

http://www.animus-facticius.org/new_standa...boy-current.mp3

Keep in mind, the idea isn't necessarily to come out better than with using -Z (though I think this version does) but instead to come to the quality level of -Z on these samples without having to use -Z on everything else. The problem is that -Z increases the bitrate by a large amount on almost all music, while this approach only causes LAME to scale up in bitrate on critical samples, but keep more normal and easy to code samples at nearly the same bitrate.

And as JohnV said, things are improving still. It's a work in progress folks, I'm just trying to give everyone a taste of what's in store biggrin.gif
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ff123
post Oct 7 2001, 15:23
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Last night, just before Dibrom posted his first message, he sent me fatboy, short, and 41_30sec to listen to, alt vs. std. I thought both fatboy and short improved noticeably, and 41_30sec did not degrade. Short had ugly background noises with std which alt improved.

Fhg VBR 100% still had the best fatboy, though.

ff123
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Dibrom
post Oct 7 2001, 15:32
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QUOTE
Originally posted by ff123
Fhg VBR 100% still had the best fatboy, though.


Yeah, Fhg had the old version beat. The new one I just posted comes much closer to matching fastenc in quality. The beginning and ends of the file aren't as clean sounding as with fastenc, but fastenc has some artifacts in the middle that this lame version doesn't so its a much closer call than before I think.
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Wombat
post Oct 7 2001, 15:32
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@ff123

Yes alternate is ways better than standard, i talked about alternate wasnīt better than standard -Z!

Well, but how things can change! fatboy current gave me the first WOW effect since long - i still smile!!


Happy Wombat

__________________________________________________________
Edit: The short block behaviour is changed, much more of them in current
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ff123
post Oct 7 2001, 16:27
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I just listened to fatboy-current, and it's very close to FhG VBR 100% now. Wombat says WOW with good reason -- this is quite an accomplishment.

ff123
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stoff
post Oct 7 2001, 16:59
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Yes, yes, yes!

You have outdone yourself, Dibrom!

It sound even better than standard with -Z. How can this be? Are you fooling around with the vbr_mrth with -X0 in the latest alpha?

Keep it up. I'm sincerely impressed... cool.gif

With the highest regards, stoff
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Dibrom
post Oct 7 2001, 17:16
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QUOTE
Originally posted by stoff
Yes, yes, yes!

You have outdone yourself, Dibrom!


Thanks smile.gif

QUOTE
It sound even better than standard with -Z. How can this be? Are you fooling around with the vbr_mrth with -X0 in the latest alpha?


Well it is a combination of a couple different things I'm doing. I'll explain it all once I've finished tuning everything and I release the compile. However, part of it is related to joint stereo, part of it is related to noise shaping 2, and part of it is related to short block handling. I'm not using vbr-mtrh or -X0 (the -X switch actually doesn't work with vbr-mtrh). Once I get this stuff under control, I do plan on looking at vbr-mtrh though.
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Somebody
post Oct 7 2001, 19:16
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QUOTE
Originally posted by stoff
Yes, yes, yes!

You have outdone yourself, Dibrom!

I second this.


I do notice a significant improvement with the new mode of fatboy over the standard sample. Sounds more defined.

in the short samples, the bass just sounds quite more deeper with your new mode.

Great job smile.gif
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cd-rw.org
post Oct 8 2001, 22:22
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Dibber,

Could you provide us with a compile, even a experimental one, for further testing?
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Dibrom
post Oct 9 2001, 00:52
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QUOTE
Originally posted by cd-rw.org
Could you provide us with a compile, even a experimental one, for further testing?


Sorry but not yet. There are a few things I need to fine tune a little bit more before putting a compile out there. I don't think it should be too much longer though.
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robert
post Oct 9 2001, 21:54
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QUOTE
Originally posted by Dibrom
the -X switch actually doesn't work with vbr-mtrh


well, it works, but a little bit different compared to the old code. (no final mapping...)
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Dibrom
post Oct 10 2001, 05:09
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Yeah I just noticed your latest cvs commits the other day which added this functionality. It should be interesting to see how it all works when finalized.
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stoff
post Oct 10 2001, 09:29
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Hi Dibrom!

Just one question while we all eagerly await the "release": Will the tweak mainly affect bass response or should it also help short block handling on the higher tones? It would be awesome if the tweak also improved something like the hi-hat part of Roel's former test, e.g. less smeared?

Regards, stoff
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Dibrom
post Oct 10 2001, 09:36
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QUOTE
Originally posted by stoff

Just one question while we all eagerly await the "release": Will the tweak mainly affect bass response or should it also help short block handling on the higher tones? It would be awesome if the tweak also improved something like the hi-hat part of Roel's former test, e.g. less smeared?


Well basically I am attempting to address both. The part about bass handling is for sure a given with these tweaks, the part about pre-echo on higher frequency transients isn't quite so easy though. Already the --dm-preset's handle pre-echo better than alternatives (say --r3mix for example) but I'd like to get it even better if possible. We will just have to see.. I have tweaked LAME to where it produces better results on death2 (very harsh pre and post-echo test case) and castanets but I am not quite sure if this tweak can be applied appropriately in other situations yet.

Basically, I'm just trying a bunch of different things at the moment. Information you may see elsewhere as to what exactly I am doing is most likely out of date. The only thing to say is just "wait and see" really smile.gif
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RD
post Oct 10 2001, 20:01
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Dibrom,

Thanks again for all your hardwork with these compiles... you have acomplished more in the last 2 months than r3mix accomplished in a year!

Now my next question is probably mundane but here it is anyway:

Where on this site are you going to post your special compile for download?

On this:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/download.php?
(which requires an account)

On animusfacticius.org? (probably spelled it incorrectly and I know latin too--artificial soul/mind?) Is this site still operational or did i just mispell it?

Or where?

Thanks,
eagerly awaiting your compile,
RD
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Dibrom
post Oct 10 2001, 20:07
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QUOTE
Originally posted by RD

Thanks again for all your hardwork with these compiles... you have acomplished more in the last 2 months than r3mix accomplished in a year!


Thanks smile.gif

QUOTE
Now my next question is probably mundane but here it is anyway:

Where on this site are you going to post your special compile for download?

On this:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/download.php?
(which requires an account)

On animusfacticius.org? (probably spelled it incorrectly and I know latin too--artificial soul/mind?)  Is this site still operational or did i just mispell it?

Or where?


I'll probably host the file on http://www.animus-facticius.org (note the -, and you basically got the meaning right.. artificial consciousness/intelligence is a bit more in the vein of what I was going for but close enough.. it is actually the name of another project which I haven't really opened up to the public (unrelated to audio encoding) at this point.. so I just host stuff from there instead)... as well as provide a link in the downloads section. I don't imagine this will stay up too long though since most of the changes will probably be incorporated back into LAME.
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RD
post Oct 10 2001, 21:35
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...ah... its all becoming clear now...
you are a musician as well...the green image in your posts is the "artificial conciousness" and that animus-facticius.org is the website that was planned for your music release...

Am i right?

Man what a prodigy: musician/programmer/audiophile/golden-ear/beer-expert/ where does it end dibrom?!?! smile.gif

Well i am a musician too--would like to hear your stuff...

RD
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Dibrom
post Oct 11 2001, 05:29
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QUOTE
Originally posted by RD
Am i right?


Yeah.. pretty much biggrin.gif

QUOTE
Well i am a musician too--would like to hear your stuff...


Perhaps I can send something sometime. Unfortunately in the last few months I haven't really been in much of a situation to work on the project to the extent I would have liked, but hopefully in the coming months that will change.
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Dibrom
post Oct 14 2001, 15:50
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Alright.. I finally got one of the bigger tweaks I was working on for all of this in place now smile.gif Basically, it is an entirely new frequency based noise measuring criterion (-X9) which should provide quite an increase in quality on impulse samples, and I'm hoping on just transients in general. It is different from the other modes in that depending on the current scalefactor band, it uses different levels of noise measuring (maximum, total+maximum, average, etc).

I'm polishing it all up now and then I'm going to add the rest of the tweaks that I've been working on.

It looks like there is probably going to be a test version of my new compile available sometime today... so stay tuned biggrin.gif
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Wombat
post Oct 14 2001, 15:54
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Nervously shaking and cleaning ears!
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Somebody
post Oct 14 2001, 22:59
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QUOTE
Originally posted by Wombat
Nervously shaking and cleaning ears!

Same!
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