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How can I tell if my version of DSOTM was mastered with pre-emphasis?
godrick
post Oct 4 2012, 02:01
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Per http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=810470, I looked at my CD of Dark Side of the Moon, and looked at the tedious but uninsightful discussion at http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=264920 , and still can't definitively determine if my CD has pre-emphasis or not. Any advice appreciated!

My CD is labelled on the top as:
Stereo
CDP 7 46001 2
DIDX 226
Made in the U.S.A.
Manufactured for Capital Records, Inc.
1973 The Gramaphone Company Limited
1973 Capital Records, Inc.

Around the inner ring on the top:
DIDX 226 111A6

Around the innermost ring on the top:
Made in USA - Digital Audio Disc Corp.

On the back of the CD case, upper right:
CDP
7 46001 2
DIDX 226
Barcode 0 777-46001-2

Cover of the booklet has the pyramid and prism spectrum graphic, and in the upper right a circle around "Pink Floyd the Dark Side of the Moon"

On the back of the booklet, upper right:
CDP
7 46001 2
DIDX 226

I bought it new in the 1980's for what it's worth. I used dBpoweramp to rip it and it did not detect pre-emphasis. The images shown on the first link above on discogs are exactly as on my CD, with two exceptions:

- my CD has DIDX 226 on the inner ring of the disc itself which discogs specifically precludes from the version it is defining.
- the outlined section on the left of the top of the CD image on discogs shows a second row of just "Made in the U.S.A.", while my version has "DIDX 226 | Made in U.S.A."

moderator: please add "version" after "my" in the thread title - thanks!

This post has been edited by godrick: Oct 4 2012, 02:35
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slks
post Oct 4 2012, 07:30
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Even most of the 80s CDs didn't have pre-emphasis. IIRC, it was only the "black triangle" releases from Japan that were pre-emphasized (unless I'm getting it mixed up with the Beatles' releases).

In any case, the digital table of contents on the disc itself has a Pre-Emphasis flag that is either turned on or off. It's been a long time since I've ripped a CD, but I recall EAC being able to detect if this flag was set, and I suppose dbPowerAmp does the same. If it says your CD is not pre-emph, then it isn't.


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godrick
post Oct 4 2012, 14:34
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...which works great for pre-emphasized discs that have the TOC flag for this set properly, but is not helpful if a pre-emphasis TOC flag is not set for a pre-emphasized disc, which apparently happened with one or several versions of DSOTM. The details of my disc don't align with any of the versions of DSOTM described elsewhere that I found, so I can't tell if my disc has this problem or not.

It looks like I'll need to find a tool that will read subchannel information and see if pre-emphasis is indicated there. I'll try the method described in http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=68915, but if anyone has developed a better or easier method since 2009 any info appreciated.

This post has been edited by godrick: Oct 4 2012, 14:40
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DVDdoug
post Oct 4 2012, 17:58
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How does it sound to you?

As far as I know, I've never run-across a CD with pre-emphasis... But, I assume it would sound terrible (when ripped) if not de-emphasized.

All CD players are supposed to detect the pre-emphasis flag and turn-on de-emphasis (assuming everything is working properly). So, if the ripped file sounds different (overly “bright” or “harsh”) compared to the original CD, you’ve got a pre-emphasized CD.

Or, you can apply de-emphasis and decide if it sounds better or worse…
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Porcus
post Oct 4 2012, 18:43
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Two samples from Money uploaded. One from the 20th anniversary edition, and then the suspicious one, a Japanese press -- the latter having positive ReplayGain.

They were ripped with dBpoweramp, which did not in version 13 log pre-emph. Since dBpoweramp does not (still not, AFAIK) subchannel, and from the Discogs information that there are indeed DSOTM pressings without the flag in TOC, I find it likely that the explanation is this is one such -- not that I simply overlooked the dBpoweramp screen; I cannot be sure, as they are stuffed away, so I cannot just find them and check with EAC. (Not all have jewel cases or booklets either, so might be hard to find ... what's $0.99 in the no-booklet bargain bin for another master of DSOTM?)


I have the following AccurateRip IDs (for CDDB ID, the last 8 chars):
009-000f7b7c-00728677-680a1009 for the Japanese (Speak to Me / Breathe in one track)
009-000f86f9-0072c558-710a1109 for the 20th anniversary (ditto)
010-000f950c-00823fc1-810a120a for the 30th anniversary (two tracks)

I also have a fourth one that turn out to have the same ID as the 20th anniversary. Likely a different pressing from the same master.


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mjb2006
post Oct 5 2012, 04:49
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QUOTE (godrick @ Oct 3 2012, 19:01) *
Around the inner ring on the top:
DIDX 226 111A6

Around the innermost ring on the top:
Made in USA - Digital Audio Disc Corp.


See http://pinkfloydarchives.com/DUSCDPF.htm#DSOTM ... you have one of the Sony US masterings ("5th" or "6th" issue), which do not have pre-emphasis.

The one on Discogs is mine; it's a Sony Japan mastering ("4th" issue), which does have pre-emphasis.

QUOTE (slks @ Oct 4 2012, 00:30) *
IIRC, it was only the "black triangle" releases from Japan that were pre-emphasized (unless I'm getting it mixed up with the Beatles' releases).


For DSOTM, it is the Sony Japan masterings that have pre-emphasis. These were distributed worldwide; in my case, there's nothing on the disc other than "TO J" in the matrix to indicate that it's actually from Japan. The pinkfloydarchives.com link above has all the details.
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Canar
post Oct 5 2012, 04:58
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QUOTE (godrick @ Oct 3 2012, 18:01) *
moderator: please add "version" after "my" in the thread title - thanks!
As you wish.


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godrick
post Oct 5 2012, 09:21
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mjb2006: thank you very much - it appears my version is the 7th Capital issue, which has no note it has pre-emphasis. It would not be accurate in all cases at that site to interpret the lack of a note on pre-emphasis to mean no pre-emphasis, since I have the 4th issue of The Wall that flags for pre-emphasis but that's not indicated at that site (I'll send a note to them with that info). But taken in the context that the Japanese versions seem to be the versions with pre-emphasis, I feel comfortable my version does not have it.

I won't trust my ears to make the call, and the spectrum plots I ran to compare to Porcus' didn't reveal anything definitive (but thanks for those suggestions, all) and I failed to find a tool to scan the subchannels for pre-emphasis flags, so that was my last shot. I tried cdda2wav that was purported to scan subchannels for the pre-emphasis flag, but what echoed to my screen indicated it scanned for a bunch of other subchannel info but not the pre-emphasis flag. None of my known pre-emphasized discs were flagged as having subchannel pre-emphasis flags - just TOC pre-emphasis flags - by cdda2wav, and while it's possible I find it unlikely that's accurate. Maybe cdda2wav abandons looking for such a subchannel flag if it detects the TOC flag, but I gave up at that point. I also tried an old copy of EAC to manually detect the TOC but my attempts at using that command resulted in garbage TOC information.

Thanks again, and thanks Canar for fixing my grammar.
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greynol
post Oct 14 2012, 01:49
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I just verified that my copy of DTSOM is the same one indicated in this site:
http://www.discogs.com/Pink-Floyd-The-Dark.../release/667546


Attached Image

Attached Image


I extracted the disc using iTunes and CUERipper, which are both supposed to recognize pre-emphasis from the subcode even if it isn't present in the TOC. iTunes did not apply de-emphasis to the extracted data and CUERipper did not indicate pre-emphasis in the cue sheet. Furthermore, I was able to verify that the disc itself plays back without de-emphasis on my standalone player by comparing it against a copy ripped without de-emphasis applied (they sounded the same).

At this point I really must call into question the integrity of the information from the link I gave.

Here is a sample of some unmolested data from the disc:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ost&id=7134

This post has been edited by greynol: Oct 14 2012, 19:03


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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Oct 14 2012, 15:03
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QUOTE (Porcus @ Oct 4 2012, 13:43) *
Two samples from Money uploaded. One from the 20th anniversary edition, and then the suspicious one, a Japanese press


Just to point out the obvious.

The Japanese version has its spectrum significantly raised above about 2 KHz according to a CEP2 FFT analysis. Looks like premphasis.

Sounds that way, too.
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Glenn Gundlach
post Oct 14 2012, 17:39
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QUOTE (DVDdoug @ Oct 4 2012, 08:58) *
How does it sound to you?

As far as I know, I've never run-across a CD with pre-emphasis... But, I assume it would sound terrible (when ripped) if not de-emphasized.
<snip>


I have Maynard Ferguson 'Storm' which I believe has pre-emphasis. As you surmised, I thought the ripped version sounded awful. I looked up the pre / de emphasis curves and added to Adobe Audition, filtered the ripped version and compared to playing the disc in a plain old CD player and found them now to be the 'same'. I have a few other discs however that are not so obvious. Someone here had mentioned EAC as reporting pre-emphasis bit status. I installed it last week and none of the discs reported pre emphasis. So how do I find out with _certainty_ if the bit is set?

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greynol
post Oct 14 2012, 17:46
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Allow me to give a little background on the issue at play (which I think is in the link I got from Porcus and presented here, as well as available if you perform a search on this forum if not the web in general). A disc with pre-emphasis can store this information in the table of contents and in the subcode data. EAC only reads this information from the table of contents.


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edwardar
post Oct 14 2012, 19:51
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I have the 'blackface' version with the same mastering (and pre-emphasis) as the black triangle.

I have several older CDs with pre-emphasis, and the only reliable way I have found to detect them is by reverting to EAC 0.95pb3 and using "detect TOC manually".

I also bought an old Denon DCD-615 CD player which has a nice 'emphasis' sign which lights up when it's detected.
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Porcus
post Oct 14 2012, 23:35
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QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Oct 14 2012, 16:03) *
Looks like premphasis.

Sounds that way, too.


Sure. But there are CDs which had the curve applied, but fail to have the flag set. Now the pinkfloydarchives seem to have checked it, though.


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mjb2006
post Oct 15 2012, 01:18
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For some reason I thought EAC did put FLAGS PRE in the cue sheet, based on subcode, but I just tested and found that it doesn't. :/

This post has been edited by mjb2006: Oct 15 2012, 01:30
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greynol
post Oct 15 2012, 03:07
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How did you test it?


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mjb2006
post Oct 15 2012, 12:53
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QUOTE (greynol @ Oct 14 2012, 20:07) *
How did you test it?

I inserted my DSOTM CD and observed that EAC 1.0b3 reported 'No' in the Pre-Emphasis column.
I then initiated a Create CUE Sheet (single WAV file) action.
I looked at the cue sheet and noted it didn't put in FLAGS PRE on any of the tracks:

CODE
REM DISCID 680A1009
REM COMMENT "ExactAudioCopy v1.0b3"
PERFORMER "Unknown Artist"
TITLE "Unknown Title"
FILE "Range.wav" WAVE
TRACK 01 AUDIO
TITLE "Track01"
PERFORMER "Unknown Artist"
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 02 AUDIO
TITLE "Track02"
PERFORMER "Unknown Artist"
INDEX 01 03:57:35
TRACK 03 AUDIO
TITLE "Track03"
PERFORMER "Unknown Artist"
INDEX 01 07:29:32
TRACK 04 AUDIO
TITLE "Track04"
PERFORMER "Unknown Artist"
INDEX 01 14:34:42
TRACK 05 AUDIO
TITLE "Track05"
PERFORMER "Unknown Artist"
INDEX 01 19:21:47
TRACK 06 AUDIO
TITLE "Track06"
PERFORMER "Unknown Artist"
INDEX 01 25:45:12
TRACK 07 AUDIO
TITLE "Track07"
PERFORMER "Unknown Artist"
INDEX 01 33:34:02
TRACK 08 AUDIO
TITLE "Track08"
PERFORMER "Unknown Artist"
INDEX 01 36:59:47
TRACK 09 AUDIO
TITLE "Track09"
PERFORMER "Unknown Artist"
INDEX 01 40:50:05


For reference, here's the output of cdda2wav -J for the same disc:
CODE
No target specified, trying to find one...
Using dev=0,1,0.
Type: ROM, Vendor 'PLDS ' Model 'DVD-RW DH16ABSH ' Revision 'YL32' MMC+CDDA
983040 bytes buffer memory requested, transfer size 64512 bytes, 4 buffers, 27 sectors
cdda2wav: Read TOC CD Text failed (probably not supported).
#Cdda2wav version 3.00_cygwin32_nt_1.7.5(0.225-5-3)_i686_i686, real time sched., soundcard, libparanoia support
AUDIOtrack pre-emphasis copy-permitted tracktype channels
1- 9 no no audio 2
Table of Contents: total tracks:9, (total time 42:56.55)
1.( 3:57.35), 2.( 3:31.72), 3.( 7:05.10), 4.( 4:47.05), 5.( 6:23.40),
6.( 7:48.65), 7.( 3:25.45), 8.( 3:50.33), 9.( 2:06.50)

Table of Contents: starting sectors
1.( 0), 2.( 17810), 3.( 33707), 4.( 65592), 5.( 87122),
6.( 115887), 7.( 151052), 8.( 166472), 9.( 183755), lead-out( 193255)
CDINDEX discid: rKs_PWM2y.8B7uVgxqJqzTDz7vs-
CDDB discid: 0x680a1009
CD-Text: not detected
CD-Extra: not detected
No media catalog number present.
scanning for ISRCs: 9 ...
index scan: 1...difference: TOC:without, subchannel:with preemphasis
correcting TOC...
index scan: 2...difference: TOC:without, subchannel:with preemphasis
correcting TOC...
index scan: 3...difference: TOC:without, subchannel:with preemphasis
correcting TOC...
index scan: 4...difference: TOC:without, subchannel:with preemphasis
correcting TOC...
index scan: 5...difference: TOC:without, subchannel:with preemphasis
correcting TOC...
index scan: 6...difference: TOC:without, subchannel:with preemphasis
correcting TOC...
index scan: 7...difference: TOC:without, subchannel:with preemphasis
correcting TOC...
index scan: 8...difference: TOC:without, subchannel:with preemphasis
correcting TOC...
index scan: 9...difference: TOC:without, subchannel:with preemphasis
correcting TOC...
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Porcus
post Nov 22 2012, 00:20
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I uploaded a third one.

Anyone who feels like judging it blindly (tags removed)? wink.gif


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mjb2006
post Nov 30 2012, 19:20
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QUOTE (greynol @ Oct 13 2012, 17:49) *
I just verified that my copy of DTSOM is the same one indicated in this site:
http://www.discogs.com/Pink-Floyd-The-Dark.../release/667546


Attached Image

[...]
At this point I really must call into question the integrity of the information from the link I gave.


Well, the artwork on your disc face is different. In Discogs, we consider any printed (with ink) differences like this to warrant a separate entry, so whatever info has been entered for the one you looked at should not be taken as definitive for your edition. No one has yet submitted this particular variation that you have; probably they just see the entry you looked at (which I created, based on my own disc) and say "close enough" and mark it as being in their collections. So you should submit yours as separate entry.

Normally, matrix differences aren't important for distinguishing releases on Discogs, but when it comes to DSOTM, we can take them into account, at least to the extent that they identify different masterings, although usually the artwork alone is sufficient. The existing release in Discogs has "CDP 7 46001 2 31C3 TO J" in the mirror band. The "31C3" can be expected to vary without consequence. The "TO J" suffix is the important part; it indicates that despite the inked "Made in USA", the disc was actually manufactured by Toshiba/EMI in Japan, and this correlates with the use of the pre-emph'd 1st Sony master.

The Pink Floyd Archives site has a much more thorough explanation of the masterings and a more precise system of cataloging these releases:

It looks to me like you have what they're currently calling the Capitol Records 18th issue, which of course would not have pre-emphasis. Can you verify this assumption against the details as given on that site? There are links to scans there, which should help. I would very much like to see every variation submitted to Discogs.

This post has been edited by mjb2006: Nov 30 2012, 19:23
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