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Detecting whether a 24-bit file has been upconverted from 16-bit?
vincefalks
post Nov 6 2012, 05:50
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I downloaded a FLAC album from online web store and it appears that the files I've downloaded are 24-bit. it's not a hd web store like hdtracks, it's generally a CD 16-bit 44.1kHz store with either FLAC or MP3 to choose from in its offerings.

I'm wondering whether the 24-bit files are real and were supplied as 24-bit from the label and they just didn't label it correctly on the download page, or whether there was an encoding error or just somehow it made its way from 16-bit files to 24-bit FLACs.

Is there a way I can definitively tell or analyze it (looking at spectral maybe) to see if it's been upconverted? Are there certain algorithms and 'good jobs' that can be done to make its 16->24 upconversion undetectable?

happy to upload a sample if it helps.

thanks
vince
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vincefalks
post Nov 6 2012, 16:29
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Thanks guys (and yeah thanks greynol for pointing that out about the spectral view), I now have confirmation from the webstore that it was an encoding error when ripping from the physical CD disc to upload on the store.

I'd like to see if those ideas above show anything.

So Now that I know more of how the 24-bit files were created: well obviously it was somewhere at the FLAC encoder level? Looks like they accidentally had 24-bit (flac) output selected in whatever ripping program they used, and that's how it happened. probably first extracted as 16-bit wav, but then converted from that into 24-bit flac, you think? with that in mind, any more clarity of how one could detect a flac.exe-produced 24-bit blow-up job?

Also, get this: their response to me pointing out the error, was such that they weren't actually to take any action unless I requested them to. they merely said 'This does not detract from the files but means that they are slightly larger than they need to be.' They actually are twice the size they need to be.

They seemed content with me wasting hard drive space for absolutely no reason, just because they, a professional music downloads web store, made a mistake when ripping the files.

Lazy.

NOW, after telling them I either want a refund or re-ripped files from the disc, within 5 minutes they have come back and said they have new (fixed) 16-bit files for you on the store. they obviously didn't re-rip the files from the disc, they clearly just downconverted the 24-bit files to 16-bit, right??? and unless that's done with a really good dithering algorithm, that could be inferior to an original straight rip from the 16-bit, right?

what's the bet they used some dodgy program (like, I dunno, is dbpoweramp a good example of dodgy?) to downconvert it again? Should I continue to not be satisfied and point this out to them, and demand a proper true lossless re-rip with no mucking around, and also is there a way to detect whether something's been (with damage), downconverted from 24-bit to 16-bit (I guess this is impossible without comparing it to an original perfect CD rip from the original unprocessed 16-bit.....?)?

ah - started writing this before finishing reading 2Bdecided's reply.....well with this in mind (16->24->16), is there any way I can at least prove the 24->back to->16 bit, bit?
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skamp
post Nov 6 2012, 17:40
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QUOTE (vincefalks @ Nov 6 2012, 16:29) *
They actually are twice the size they need to be.


Are you sure? I just tried upconverting a 16 bit album in FLAC to 24 bit, and the resulting FLACs are almost the same size at the originals.

As a sidenote, I scanned my entire FLAC collection with my script, and I found an oddity: the album "Smash" by The Offspring only has 15 effective bits (out of 16, it's a CD rip). I wonder why that is.


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Posts in this topic
- vincefalks   Detecting whether a 24-bit file has been upconverted from 16-bit?   Nov 6 2012, 05:50
- - nu774   Try something like the following to see if wasted ...   Nov 6 2012, 06:31
|- - skamp   QUOTE (nu774 @ Nov 6 2012, 06:31) Try som...   Nov 6 2012, 12:06
|- - julf   QUOTE (skamp @ Nov 6 2012, 12:06) I used ...   Nov 8 2012, 16:33
|- - Sparktank   QUOTE (nu774 @ Nov 6 2012, 06:31) CODEfla...   Apr 13 2013, 01:47
- - bandpass   QUOTE (vincefalks @ Nov 6 2012, 04:50) Ar...   Nov 6 2012, 09:11
- - spoon   >Are there certain algorithms and 'good job...   Nov 6 2012, 11:47
- - nu774   BTW, I think just a slight gain scaling from the o...   Nov 6 2012, 12:31
- - greynol   You can add noise or simply use Audacity which can...   Nov 6 2012, 12:42
- - 2Bdecided   There's no way of knowing for sure. Unlike low...   Nov 6 2012, 12:45
- - vincefalks   Thanks guys (and yeah thanks greynol for pointing ...   Nov 6 2012, 16:29
|- - skamp   QUOTE (vincefalks @ Nov 6 2012, 16:29) Th...   Nov 6 2012, 17:40
|- - vincefalks   QUOTE (skamp @ Nov 6 2012, 17:40) QUOTE (...   Nov 6 2012, 18:44
||- - skamp   QUOTE (vincefalks @ Nov 6 2012, 18:44) it...   Nov 6 2012, 18:58
||- - Porcus   QUOTE (vincefalks @ Nov 6 2012, 19:44) it...   Nov 8 2012, 17:33
|- - Destroid   Interesting discussion. I hope the market does not...   Nov 6 2012, 23:21
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (Destroid @ Nov 7 2012, 00:21) I ho...   Nov 8 2012, 17:38
- - greynol   Don't blame flac.exe. It will not take 16-bit...   Nov 6 2012, 17:23
|- - vincefalks   QUOTE (greynol @ Nov 6 2012, 17:23) Don...   Nov 6 2012, 17:47
- - greynol   6dB of gain was applied to the master with no furt...   Nov 6 2012, 17:42
- - greynol   You would really have to go out of your way to do ...   Nov 6 2012, 17:59
- - 2Bdecided   An even smarter analysis can figure out which 24-b...   Nov 8 2012, 17:16
- - pdq   Let's not forget that a file that was up-conve...   Nov 8 2012, 18:27
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (pdq @ Nov 8 2012, 18:27) Let's...   Nov 9 2012, 10:33
|- - julf   QUOTE (pdq @ Nov 8 2012, 18:27) Let's...   Nov 9 2012, 13:39
- - pdq   ...and it makes sense that if the tracks had been ...   Nov 9 2012, 15:11
- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (vincefalks @ Nov 5 2012, 23:50) I ...   Nov 9 2012, 16:01
- - skamp   Maybe Greynol can help?   Apr 13 2013, 07:41
- - Case   Here's a quick Windows .cmd script trying to d...   Apr 13 2013, 09:39
|- - Sparktank   QUOTE (Case @ Apr 13 2013, 01:39) Here...   Apr 13 2013, 09:59
- - Case   It's meant to be used from command prompt when...   Apr 13 2013, 10:11
- - mjb2006   Thanks for the .cmd version. I suggest modifying ...   Apr 13 2013, 10:40
- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (vincefalks @ Nov 6 2012, 00:50) I ...   Apr 13 2013, 16:12
|- - skamp   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 13 2013, 17...   Apr 13 2013, 17:28
- - greynol   I don't see the point in adding dither when in...   Apr 13 2013, 16:18
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (greynol @ Apr 13 2013, 11:18) I do...   Apr 13 2013, 22:22
|- - Kees de Visser   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 13 2013, 22...   Apr 14 2013, 15:23
- - BearcatSandor   Anyone know how to adjust Skamp's script to wo...   Apr 14 2013, 01:00
- - MikeFord   How would this technique rate a file consisting of...   Apr 16 2013, 21:11


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