Modern Vinyl "Masters" vs. CD--My Experience, It Really IS About the Music Options

[Engelsstaub]

Due to some recent past experiences in other threads wherein some members (who plainly state their honest dislike of vinyl) claim that modern LPs are just as dynamically clipped as their CD-counterparts, I'd like to take an opportunity to illustrate that this is IME not the case. I've heard it stated more than once that "vinyl is not about the music..it's about the ritual.) This is seemingly just plain-old lazy bias. It can easily be forgiven in that these posters make it pretty obvious that they don't purchase vinyl, let alone compare modern releases to their CD-counterparts.

Here are screenshots from needledrops I've done of some of my favorite recent records. All but one were released in the past two years. Warrel Dane's "Praises to the War Machine" was released in 2008. (As a fun side-note, the vinyl LP came with the CD and was limited to 1,000 copies worldwide.)

I would like to note that I did not cherry-pick these examples. I only have about three more needledrops that I also have a CD copy or iTunes Matched version of. I can upload those as well. It should also be noted that all of these examples are on the heavier-side of the metal genre and probably are far more dense in sound than most other examples from other genres.

I've brought each vinyl recording up to 0.1 under 0 dB for easier comparison. None of the peaks are "pops" or any artifacts associated with the LP medium. Only one had a "pop" that hit the ceiling and I corrected it before applying gain.


Borknagar - "The Earthling" from "Urd" (2012)

LP



iTunes Matched AAC




In Flames - "Ropes" from "Sounds of a Playground Fading" (2011)

LP



CD



(This album is an egregious example of how bad they can make a modern CD sound through destructive normalization.)


Saint Vitus - "Let Them Fall" from "Lillie: F-65" (2012)

LP



CD



(Yes, really. It sounds worse than it looks IME.)


Warrel Dane - "Brother" from "Praises to the War Machine" (2008)

LP



CD




Septicflesh - "Oceans of Grey" from "The Great Mass" (2011)

LP



CD




[continued in next post due to apparent image constraints]

[Engelsstaub]

Dimmu Borgir - "Born Treacherous" from "Abrahadabra" (2010)

LP



iTunes Matched



(This one admittedly doesn't sound that much better if at all. The iTunes Matched version sounds fine to me.)


Woods of Ypres - "Into Exile: "Can You Get Here in 10 Days?" " from "Woods IV: The Green Album" (2009) [Earache Pressing]

LP



iTunes purchased



(Offensively egregious and eardrum-shattering.)


I've stated in the past here that, when all things are equal, the CD is far superior to vinyl. I would like to also be fair and point out that most older CDs that I have also on vinyl make owning the vinyl pointless for anything other than collectibility's sake. Armored Saint's "Raising Fear" and Suicidal Tendencies' "How Will I Laugh Tomorrow When I Can't Even Smile Today?" are examples that immediately come to mind. Both were released in the late-eighties/pre-Loudness War...speaking of which:that's the real issue here.

Before I step down from my virtual-podium here I'd like to conclude that I wish it would be equally less-than-OK at HA to make sweeping judgements about why one would choose the vinyl medium over the CD in many cases as it is to make other ridiculous claims about vinyl. I get that it's so much easier to espouse the popular position than give something a second thought. As a person that actually plays vinyl in the 21st Century I'd like to submit my personal findings on this matter.

As always, discussion, questions, and disagreement is welcome

[Nessuno]

Never actually made measurement of the sort, but may we safely assume that all this doesn't apply to classical?

[StephenPG]

Never actually made measurement of the sort, but may we safely assume that all this doesn't apply to classical?

I have a classical CD collection dating back to 1980 and have yet to find a 'brickwalled' recording.


ps, love the avatar... :-)

[krabapple]

Never actually made measurement of the sort, but may we safely assume that all this doesn't apply to classical?

I have a classical CD collection dating back to 1980 and have yet to find a 'brickwalled' recording.


ps, love the avatar... :-)

Not brickwalling, in my experience -- which I take here to mean plateaus visible at low magnification ('zoomed out' ) view of a waveform -- but there has been some spot hard limiting in classical CD releases. I have no idea how common it is though. Here's an example posted by HA's own Axon:

http://audiamorous.blogspot.com/2008/11/th...ering-does.html

This post has been edited by krabapple: Dec 5 2012, 23:27

[Nessuno]

I have a classical CD collection dating back to 1980 and have yet to find a 'brickwalled' recording.

Not brickwalling, in my experience -- which I take here to mean plateaus visible at low magnification ('zoomed out' ) view of a waveform -- but there has been some spot hard limiting in classical CD releases. I have no idea how common it is though.

Yes, clipping sometimes, albeit rarely, occur in classical recordings, but to my knowledge (I'm not a sound engineer) this problem is not related to the use of dynamic compression techniques, but is a side effect of multimicrophonic recording setups, often used by labels as DG or Decca, and the difficulties arising to calibrate the different mic levels during recording in the first place and then during mixing and final mastering stages. They are unwanted errors of course and not so easy to spot by ears, anyway. No, definitely not brickwalling.

Generally speaking, a classical recording, especially a symphonic or operatic one is considered more valuable and appealing the larger the dynamic and I understand perfectly well Engelsstaub concerns, but for classical, digital delivery formats are only too great a blessing!
I have some early Telarc CDs with a disclaimer printed in the booklet not to play quieter passages at high volume because, due to the larger dynamic range of digital media, louder ones might then result too loud and even damage speakers!

As an anecdote, I have also an old Decca LP, a 1960 recording of Thurston Dart playing Bach's French Suites at the clavichord, whose internal sleeve reports an advice to play at a volume level higher than usual because of the typical sound of that instrument, very quiet and with a limited dynamic range.

[krabapple]

Yes, clipping sometimes, albeit rarely, occur in classical recordings, but to my knowledge (I'm not a sound engineer) this problem is not related to the use of dynamic compression techniques, but is a side effect of multimicrophonic recording setups, often used by labels as DG or Decca, and the difficulties arising to calibrate the different mic levels during recording in the first place and then during mixing and final mastering stages. They are unwanted errors of course and not so easy to spot by ears, anyway. No, definitely not brickwalling.

Why are they hitting headroom limits on classical releases? Are they not doing tracking and production at 24bits or more? (the recording linked to was a recent DDD recording on DG)

This post has been edited by krabapple: Dec 7 2012, 17:47

[Nessuno]

Why are they hitting headroom limits on classical releases? Are they not doing tracking and production at 24bits or more? (the recording linked to was a recent DDD recording on DG)

Good point. Maybe the clipping was not in the 24bits (or whatever) single tracks, not even in the two channel master, but what if, to give the whole track a louder overall level (DG productions have typically a "spectacular" sound signature) and stil accommodate the whole dynamic without compression (full grancassa or timpani strokes listened or recorded at short distance could naturally approach pain threshold, ask the players!) the sound engineer applied a little more gain and when (if) down-quantizing traded for this a few samples of completely inaudible clipping? I wouldn't dismiss this as bad mastering, if the final result is still pleasing to listeners ears: preserved overall dynamic between pianissimo and fortissimo, good presence and clarity of various orchestral sections and no audible flaws.

A multi-microphonic production is far more complex than putting two or three microphones behind the whole orchestra and monitor for overs and sometimes the final result even if technically perfect, could be artistically a complete fiasco, with too much altered dynamics between various instruments, no spatial clues and a sense of big mess overall (it's okay to me to hear a triangolo clearly than live, but don't make it as big and near as the soloists piano!).

But now I'm getting off topic. Just a last remark: thinking along this topic at hand, I'm developing a great concern that, as we have evidence of different mastering between two delivery format for marketing reasons only, the same could happen on the same digital domain between 16/44.1 and those new hi-res formats.