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Modern Vinyl "Masters" vs. CD--My Experience, It Really IS About the Music
2Bdecided
post Jan 30 2013, 10:46
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QUOTE (Kohlrabi @ Jan 29 2013, 15:41) *
Is there a reason for not putting this new version out on CD or iTunes?
What?! Try and sell a "new and improved" version on the same format that's quieter than the original?!?!?!

wink.gif

This is the best excuse for new hi-res formats - you can fix your previous mastering mistakes without ever admitting you even made a mistake.

Cheers,
David.
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2Bdecided
post Jan 30 2013, 13:38
Post #102


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You set me thinking - sometimes more "remastering" is better, and sometimes going from more to less sounds strange when you're used to more. Of course, there are limits!

Check out the samples in this thread...
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=99166
...I prefer (a), but then I heard (a) first. Yet if I heard a radio station, or genre complication CD, include a track sounding exactly like (a), I'd find that sound to be totally weird and jarring - I'd expect one of (b)-(e) on a compilation CD, and (f) on the radio.

Cheers,
David.
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Henry66
post Jul 4 2013, 16:58
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Sorry to come into this thread so late. I found it while googling for info about how modern vinyl LPs are actually made.

What is the source for the data that is cut into the plastic? Isn't it a digital file (nowadays)? Does anyone know someone who could get hold of such a digital source file (unaltered) that we can analyze and compare with an LP rip of the same?
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Engelsstaub
post Jul 5 2013, 04:37
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QUOTE (Henry66 @ Jul 4 2013, 10:58) *
...
What is the source for the data that is cut into the plastic? Isn't it a digital file (nowadays)? Does anyone know someone who could get hold of such a digital source file (unaltered) that we can analyze and compare with an LP rip of the same?


It is almost always a digital file for modern releases. Some of the stoner/doom bands still like to do full-analogue albums but it's not common in most genres and sub-genres. (IMO recording to tape is an unnecessary pain in this century.)

I do have some studio master files. Some are from a compilation/tribute CD that hasn't been distributed in physical format yet...but it will never see a vinyl release. (An interesting side-note is this: 75% of the original submissions were very dynamic--talking DR 12 or so--for some pretty extreme forms of metal. They got "normalized" ie: boosted to the point of clipping/near-brickwalling for the proper release. I digress.)

The only other master file I have I haven't done a transfer of the vinyl and unfortunately never will. Besides being pointless for me, I don't want to open the vinyl because it's a limited pressing: 79 of 500.




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Blueshirt
post Jul 30 2013, 14:14
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QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Jul 5 2013, 04:37) *
I don't want to open the vinyl because it's a limited pressing: 79 of 500.


You keep your vinyl sealed? Each to their own and all that, but I don't see the point in buying a record to keep it in a wrapper. Play it and enjoy it I say! smile.gif
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Engelsstaub
post Aug 5 2013, 06:06
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QUOTE (Blueshirt @ Jul 30 2013, 08:14) *
You keep your vinyl sealed? ...


No, I usually don't. ...but I'm also a collector. The particular artist who released that album is personally familiar to me and I have the 24/48 files that were used to press that album.

...so in such instances I feel there's no use in playing the record when I'd rather sit on it and watch the collector's value skyrocket when it's out of print smile.gif


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TomasPin
post Aug 5 2013, 20:40
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QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Aug 5 2013, 02:06) *
I have the 24/48 files that were used to press that album.

What, no 192khz? Are you kidding me? He must not like you very much...

wink.gif


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pisymbol
post Oct 9 2013, 13:52
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QUOTE (greynol @ Jan 28 2013, 17:29) *
I want to revisit this discussion because I just provided a link to it from another discussion and realized that I failed to point out earlier that based on simply viewing the waveforms in the first two posts and my understanding of how vinyl is created and subsequently played back, it appears to me that DRC may have been applied to the CD version above and beyond the source that was used to create the vinyl version for only one title shown: the last one.

IOW, I don't find the visual evidence presented here very compelling in order to conclude that vinyl is typically derived from a different master than the one used to create a CD, FWIW and IMHO.


A lot of times in the metal hemisphere, they are indeed different masters. It depends on the label, but the smaller ones almost always do a dedicated vinyl master mainly because the original digital one is so clipped (DR3/4 territory if we are counting).

Also there are the politics behind all of this as well which is outside the current discussion...
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greynol
post Oct 9 2013, 14:54
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Thanks for the anecdote. Now do you have any evidence to back it up?


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pisymbol
post Oct 9 2013, 15:01
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QUOTE (greynol @ Oct 9 2013, 09:54) *
Thanks for the anecdote. Now do you have any evidence to back it up?


From talking to dozens of artists and labels. I'm not saying all or even this particular example.

Also, many vinyl releases in metal are done by a different label than the one the CD was initially distributed on (do a little Googling) and typically that means a different master.

This post has been edited by pisymbol: Oct 9 2013, 15:02
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greynol
post Oct 9 2013, 15:14
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More anecdotes. Will we be seeing any hard evidence from you?

In terms of examples in this discussion, what was the total number of titles offered that obviously originated from a different master from that used to create the CD again?

This post has been edited by greynol: Oct 9 2013, 17:04


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pisymbol
post Oct 9 2013, 16:33
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QUOTE (greynol @ Oct 9 2013, 10:14) *
More anecdotes. Will we be seeing any hard evidence from you?


No. Mainly due to your generally condescending tone that is pervasive in all of your posts. Cheers!

This post has been edited by pisymbol: Oct 9 2013, 16:36
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greynol
post Oct 9 2013, 16:51
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How convenient.

The OP acted in good faith by creating a discussion centered on evidence. I would like to think additional contributions would come in the way of more evidence or analysis of the evidence already presented.

I'm flattered that wish to make this about me and have no problem being your scapegoat.


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Engelsstaub
post Oct 9 2013, 19:55
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At this time I guess I could offer nothing but anecdotal musings as well. (I have the TT and cart to do decent rips but I lack a decent ADC and external preamp so I won't be doing any rips until I get some new gear. The ones I submitted were from a Pro-Ject Debut III with a seriously treble-biased cart.)

While I won't argue either way at this point I'm going to concede that the last couple of requests I made (that were answered) to record companies on mastering info were answered with "same."

The last two bands I literally spoke to about it said "same" as well. However both of those releases were fairly dynamic by today's metal standards though. (Both CDs were DR8; not terrible IMO for dense black metal and doom metal respectively.)

I personally feel at this point that a lot of what I thought was some completely separate master could possibly just be the effects vinyl playback has on clipped digital sources.


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pisymbol
post Oct 9 2013, 20:39
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QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Oct 9 2013, 14:55) *
At this time I guess I could offer nothing but anecdotal musings as well. (I have the TT and cart to do decent rips but I lack a decent ADC and external preamp so I won't be doing any rips until I get some new gear. The ones I submitted were from a Pro-Ject Debut III with a seriously treble-biased cart.)

While I won't argue either way at this point I'm going to concede that the last couple of requests I made (that were answered) to record companies on mastering info were answered with "same."

The last two bands I literally spoke to about it said "same" as well. However both of those releases were fairly dynamic by today's metal standards though. (Both CDs were DR8; not terrible IMO for dense black metal and doom metal respectively.)

I personally feel at this point that a lot of what I thought was some completely separate master could possibly just be the effects vinyl playback has on clipped digital sources.


DR8 CDs in metal are fairly rare and that's why I suspect you are hearing the "same" answers. The overwhelming majority of metal CDs are in the DR6 or lower territory.

I would ask labels regarding those CDs (<=DR6) if the vinyl master had a separate release and share you experience. I suspect you will learn, as I have, that smaller labels that cater to vinyl only releases typically pay for an entire new master which is almost always not pushed to the levels of their CD counterparts.

The TT meter AFAICT reflects that fact DESPITE being misleading when the numbers are much closer DR6 vs DR8. And as everyone has said, DR scores are just guidelines (dubious ones at that when applied to the analog domain) and in the end you must listen to confirm the dynamics present in a recording.

This post has been edited by pisymbol: Oct 9 2013, 21:05
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greynol
post Oct 9 2013, 21:28
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An example of a CD <= DR6:
QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Jan 4 2013, 11:08) *
In any case I'd like to update some more findings on that In Flames record.

CD
CODE
DR5        -0.10 dB     -6.19 dB     09 - Ropes.wav

LP
CODE
DR12        -0.66 dB     -14.20 dB     12 - Ropes.wav

Uploaded waves strongly indicate (to me) that these are from the same master. Areas where this is clipping in CD have straight lines in the LP, just sloped (EDIT: and steeply at that).

This post has been edited by greynol: Oct 9 2013, 22:08


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Engelsstaub
post Oct 9 2013, 22:40
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Come on. I really wanted to believe those were different biggrin.gif

Srs: I love the songs on that album but the production is terribly harsh.


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