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What we measure is what we hear
Yahzi
post Dec 24 2012, 17:34
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I've heard audiophiles claim time and time again that what we measure does not reflect what we hear in a listening evaluation. I think Floyd Tool is the pioneer in conducting the studies for this, but who else as in a position of authority has led research into this field? It can't be mere opinion. I feel measurements largely do correlate with subjective sound quality but I don't think *all* measurements do. Some are more relevant than others.

What is your position?
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greynol
post Jan 2 2013, 00:23
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The point I was making is that the ears (outer or inner) don't perceive; rather it is the conscious mind does the perceiving. Further, perceptions can be altered though expectation bias. People who are persuaded into "hearing" (or "not hearing") something will actually experience it, regardless of the stimulus to the ear. To them it is very real and is perceived as such.


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Nessuno
post Jan 2 2013, 01:01
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QUOTE (greynol @ Jan 2 2013, 00:23) *
The point I was making is that the ears (outer or inner) don't perceive; rather it is the conscious mind does the perceiving.

Ok, but "perceptual" codecs are focused on discarding exactly those stimula that the ears (and/or lower brain functions) are not able to discriminate and blind tests are used just to put "consciousness" out of the equation.

But now it's me just quibbling wink.gif, I think the sense of what has been said upon measure vs. hear is clear and also upon hearing abilities not actually changing by expectations, so I stop here...


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Woodinville
post Jan 2 2013, 01:44
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QUOTE (Nessuno @ Jan 1 2013, 16:01) *
QUOTE (greynol @ Jan 2 2013, 00:23) *
The point I was making is that the ears (outer or inner) don't perceive; rather it is the conscious mind does the perceiving.

Ok, but "perceptual" codecs are focused on discarding exactly those stimula that the ears (and/or lower brain functions) are not able to discriminate and blind tests are used just to put "consciousness" out of the equation.


Perceptual codecs, by and large, use the auditory periphery sensitivity to throw out information.

If the periphery can not capture the information, it never reaches the cognative level.

You must separate cognative effects from peripheral effects, please. Cognative effects are as plastic as plastic gets (i.e. they can change, adapt, etc). The periphery is very nearly fixed, with simple feedback mechanisms from the CNS.


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Nessuno
post Jan 2 2013, 12:10
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QUOTE (Woodinville @ Jan 2 2013, 01:44) *
You must separate cognative effects from peripheral effects, please. Cognative effects are as plastic as plastic gets (i.e. they can change, adapt, etc). The periphery is very nearly fixed, with simple feedback mechanisms from the CNS.

You are augmenting the detail level (and I'm liking to go deeper in a field I don't know in finer details) but this doesn't change the whole picture.
Correct me if I'm wrong: we could see it, for sake of simplicity, like a two block system. The first block which houses the transducer (ear) and its low level driver logic (peripheral auditory system), the second block which houses "business logic" (cognitive functions like, say, construct vectors of stimuli and match them with previously known patterns).
The second block takes its inputs mainly from the first, but is able to change its functions if properly instructed and is also able to aggregate other inputs, from for example sight, to select different functions and give different interpretations to a same input from the first block.

Now, for example, spectral or temporal masking is a resolution limit of the first block, you cannot "train" someone to improve upon this aspect, but you can instruct the second block to overcome some of this limitation integrating its input with other stimuli: when an individual sees, for example, a certain cable between the amp and the speakers he is listening to and he was told those cables possess a "superior resolution power", he actually perceives (in the sense Greynol gave to this term) "firmer bass", "silky trebles", "deeper soundstage" etc etc... even if swapping cables haven't changed anything at first block level.

Relating to what you call "training", correct me once more if I'm missing the point, is actually like improving functions of second block to better recognize patters in stimuli, but using only input from the first block.

So, to go back to the topic of this thread, better measures of a device doesn't directly translate in better perception, as long as their influence is limited to the first block (and the improvement in measurable quantity is beyond its resolving power).

This post has been edited by Nessuno: Jan 2 2013, 12:16


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Posts in this topic
- Yahzi   What we measure is what we hear   Dec 24 2012, 17:34
- - slks   It depends on which measurements we're talking...   Dec 24 2012, 17:56
- - Yahzi   So you are saying that measurements can explain wh...   Dec 24 2012, 18:22
|- - Ethan Winer   ^^^ Yes, you understand correctly. I've done a...   Dec 24 2012, 19:23
- - AndyH-ha   To sum of one aspect of "what we measure is N...   Dec 24 2012, 21:59
- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Yahzi @ Dec 24 2012, 11:34) I...   Dec 24 2012, 23:40
- - Porcus   Two totally different points: (1) Those annoying ...   Dec 24 2012, 23:56
- - Woodinville   Many people have worked on measuring what you hear...   Dec 25 2012, 03:52
|- - jkauff   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Dec 24 2012, 21:52) ...   Dec 29 2012, 15:18
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (jkauff @ Dec 29 2012, 09:18) QUOTE...   Dec 31 2012, 18:14
- - dhromed   Your daughter is not an unmeasured outlier; she...   Dec 29 2012, 15:27
|- - garym   QUOTE (dhromed @ Dec 29 2012, 09:27) Your...   Dec 29 2012, 16:14
|- - sld   QUOTE (garym @ Dec 29 2012, 23:14) QUOTE ...   Dec 29 2012, 19:27
- - greynol   I doubt she is as well. What frequency is the cat ...   Dec 29 2012, 15:30
|- - jkauff   QUOTE (greynol @ Dec 29 2012, 09:30) I do...   Dec 30 2012, 23:05
|- - Soap   QUOTE (jkauff @ Dec 30 2012, 17:05) Cat h...   Dec 30 2012, 23:49
- - greynol   We hear about people in their early 20s and younge...   Dec 29 2012, 19:21
- - Mach-X   Ouch.   Dec 29 2012, 20:55
- - Yahzi   Correct me if I'm wrong but we hear using our ...   Dec 30 2012, 14:07
|- - Soap   QUOTE (Yahzi @ Dec 30 2012, 08:07) Correc...   Dec 30 2012, 15:05
- - Yahzi   I just thought I'd ask the question and I thou...   Dec 30 2012, 16:39
- - Speedskater   If you restrict the use of the words "hear...   Dec 30 2012, 17:52
- - pisymbol   QUOTE (Yahzi @ Dec 24 2012, 11:34) I...   Dec 31 2012, 02:05
|- - AndyH-ha   QUOTE (pisymbol @ Dec 30 2012, 18:05) But...   Dec 31 2012, 02:52
|- - pisymbol   QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Dec 30 2012, 20:52...   Dec 31 2012, 03:12
|- - db1989   QUOTE (pisymbol @ Dec 31 2012, 02:12) Sub...   Dec 31 2012, 05:25
|- - Ethan Winer   QUOTE (pisymbol @ Dec 30 2012, 21:12) Sub...   Dec 31 2012, 18:14
||- - Nessuno   QUOTE (Ethan Winer @ Dec 31 2012, 18:14) ...   Dec 31 2012, 18:41
||- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Dec 31 2012, 09:41) This...   Jan 1 2013, 03:10
||- - Ethan Winer   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Dec 31 2012, 12:41) but ...   Jan 1 2013, 19:09
|||- - Martel   QUOTE (Ethan Winer @ Jan 1 2013, 20:09) ....   Jan 1 2013, 19:54
|||- - Nessuno   Let alone those quite obvious issues which actuall...   Jan 1 2013, 23:08
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Dec 31 2012, 12:41) ...i...   Jan 2 2013, 17:43
||- - pdq   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Dec 31 2012, 12:41) if p...   Jan 2 2013, 17:50
||- - Nessuno   QUOTE (pdq @ Jan 2 2013, 17:50) QUOTE (Ne...   Jan 2 2013, 19:16
|||- - pdq   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Jan 2 2013, 13:16) QUOTE...   Jan 2 2013, 20:28
|||- - Nessuno   QUOTE (pdq @ Jan 2 2013, 20:28) However, ...   Jan 2 2013, 21:12
|||- - Kohlrabi   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Jan 2 2013, 21:12) QUOTE...   Jan 3 2013, 01:13
||||- - Nessuno   QUOTE (Kohlrabi @ Jan 3 2013, 01:13) QUOT...   Jan 3 2013, 02:11
||||- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Jan 2 2013, 17:11) QUOTE...   Jan 3 2013, 11:15
|||- - pdq   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Jan 2 2013, 15:12) QUOTE...   Jan 3 2013, 02:07
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (pdq @ Jan 2 2013, 11:50) QUOTE (Ne...   Jan 3 2013, 01:20
|||- - Kohlrabi   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jan 3 2013, 01...   Jan 3 2013, 01:23
||- - krabapple   QUOTE (pdq @ Jan 2 2013, 11:50) QUOTE (Ne...   Jan 3 2013, 18:12
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (pisymbol @ Dec 30 2012, 21:12) Sub...   Dec 31 2012, 18:25
- - AndyH-ha   Subjective impressions are, after all, impressions...   Dec 31 2012, 07:38
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Dec 30 2012, 22:38...   Dec 31 2012, 09:43
|- - Kees de Visser   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Dec 31 2012, 09:43) ...   Dec 31 2012, 17:08
|- - greynol   I don't think this forum is scared of subjecti...   Dec 31 2012, 17:43
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (greynol @ Dec 31 2012, 08:43) I do...   Jan 1 2013, 03:06
- - greynol   TL;DR: MUSHRA and other ABC-style tests are subjec...   Dec 31 2012, 11:59
|- - Satellite_6   So far the best measuring headphones I have tried ...   Dec 31 2012, 15:32
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (Satellite_6 @ Dec 31 2012, 15:32) ...   Dec 31 2012, 16:18
- - Martel   What's the "best measuring" frequenc...   Dec 31 2012, 16:15
|- - Soap   QUOTE (Martel @ Dec 31 2012, 10:15) What...   Dec 31 2012, 16:42
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Martel @ Dec 31 2012, 07:15) What...   Jan 1 2013, 03:08
- - greynol   Maybe we should take a close look at the meaning o...   Dec 31 2012, 20:29
- - jkauff   Next, on to wine tasting....   Dec 31 2012, 21:28
- - greynol   Feel free to start a new topic, replacing the word...   Dec 31 2012, 22:13
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (greynol @ Dec 31 2012, 13:13) Feel...   Jan 1 2013, 03:12
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Dec 31 2012, 21:12) ...   Jan 1 2013, 15:47
- - greynol   You're right, I just don't know that we sh...   Jan 1 2013, 03:25
|- - Nessuno   Maybe a little OT, but I recall a "rule of th...   Jan 1 2013, 12:47
- - Yahzi   It seems this discussion ain't over yet. Thank...   Jan 1 2013, 20:49
- - greynol   The point I was making is that the ears (outer or ...   Jan 2 2013, 00:23
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (greynol @ Jan 1 2013, 15:23) The p...   Jan 2 2013, 00:41
||- - Nessuno   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Jan 2 2013, 00:41) I...   Jan 2 2013, 01:12
||- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Jan 1 2013, 16:12) QUOTE...   Jan 2 2013, 01:40
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (greynol @ Jan 2 2013, 00:23) The p...   Jan 2 2013, 01:01
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Nessuno @ Jan 1 2013, 16:01) QUOTE...   Jan 2 2013, 01:44
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Jan 2 2013, 01:44) Y...   Jan 2 2013, 12:10
- - Martel   It's nearly impossible to measure subjective f...   Jan 2 2013, 13:19
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Martel @ Jan 2 2013, 07:19) It...   Jan 2 2013, 17:47
- - heatfire   Can only measure that we hear it not how or what w...   Jan 2 2013, 15:53
- - heatfire   There is one measurement some "audiophiles...   Jan 2 2013, 19:49
- - knutinh   Good work carried out by Toole and others aside: A...   Jan 3 2013, 13:02
- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (knutinh @ Jan 3 2013, 07:02) Good ...   Jan 3 2013, 13:34


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