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Human hearing beats FFT
ncdrawl
post Feb 9 2013, 15:20
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http://phys.org/news/2013-02-human-fourier...-principle.html
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Woodinville
post Feb 26 2013, 04:30
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There are a number of issues confused in this thread.

The first is that the Gabor limit applies. The Gabor limit only applies when what you need to detect is completely unknown.

Hearing the difference between notes is not at all the same problem.

The second that this 'beats FFT'. It beats the single-bin resolution of an FFT, but once you know you're dealing with a single cycle of a single sine wave, that problem becomes moot, because an FFT is 1:1 and onto, i.e. orthonormal, tight frame, etc, and the information is all retained. So, yes, it is there in the FFT that has wider bands, just not in the usual way one would extract it. The GABOR LIMIT DOES NOT APPLY TO THIS DETECTION ISSUE, and YES, Batman, the FFT can be used in such detection, it's just a dumb way to do it.

Third, the ear has about 60Hz bands until you get to the point where 1/4 octave is wider, and then they are 1/4 octave wide, give or take. This has little reading on the actual frequency detection mechanism, because the phase of firing of neurons is radically different below and above the center frequency of a given hair cell. This, alone, to 500Hz, can suffice to demonstrate pitch detection ability. And since the filters are wide, they settle fast, and hence again we beat the gabor limit, because we know we're looking for ONE set of frequencies, not any arbitrary frequency.

So, the headline is just confused, it's comparing an apple, an orange, and a crate full of bowling balls, and concluding that apples are orange-colored and weigh 12 lbs.



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J. D. (jj) Johnston
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Posts in this topic
- ncdrawl   Human hearing beats FFT   Feb 9 2013, 15:20
- - probedb   QUOTE (ncdrawl @ Feb 9 2013, 14:20) http:...   Feb 9 2013, 15:51
|- - ncdrawl   QUOTE (probedb @ Feb 9 2013, 09:51) QUOTE...   Feb 9 2013, 16:02
|- - probedb   QUOTE (ncdrawl @ Feb 9 2013, 15:02) it is...   Feb 11 2013, 09:26
- - lvqcl   From the comments: QUOTE The Fourier uncertainty ...   Feb 9 2013, 16:10
- - greynol   That title? What about the title of this discussi...   Feb 9 2013, 18:00
- - Alexey Lukin   Love the title   Feb 9 2013, 20:13
- - greynol   ...with a blunt stick.   Feb 9 2013, 20:17
- - Woodinville   Ad the Gabor limit does not address known frequenc...   Feb 10 2013, 04:41
|- - Kees de Visser   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Feb 10 2013, 04:41) ...   Feb 10 2013, 08:31
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Kees de Visser @ Feb 9 2013, 23:31...   Feb 10 2013, 12:51
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (Kees de Visser @ Feb 10 2013, 08:3...   Feb 10 2013, 17:15
- - 2Bdecided   Is it worth spending $25 to read this in full...   Feb 11 2013, 10:25
|- - Kees de Visser   I just stumbled upon this blog. Are we heading tow...   Feb 11 2013, 10:56
||- - Porcus   QUOTE More pointedly: until scientists devise and ...   Feb 11 2013, 11:46
||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Porcus @ Feb 11 2013, 10:46) QUOTE...   Feb 11 2013, 12:21
|- - ojdo   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Feb 11 2013, 17:25) Is...   Feb 11 2013, 17:13
- - db1989   Given that the writer misspelled mathematical and ...   Feb 11 2013, 16:39
|- - Ethan Winer   QUOTE (db1989 @ Feb 11 2013, 10:39) Given...   Feb 11 2013, 23:05
- - greynol   Would someone mind correlating the article with th...   Feb 11 2013, 16:48
- - benski   Off the top of my head. I might be wrong. But pa...   Feb 11 2013, 18:32
- - 2Bdecided   By taking an FFT, you are performing an (approxima...   Feb 11 2013, 19:02
- - krabapple   Here's what the audiophilosphere reliably take...   Feb 12 2013, 07:18
- - knutinh   Is not some wavelet/filterbank transform more rele...   Feb 12 2013, 09:59
|- - Garf   QUOTE (knutinh @ Feb 12 2013, 09:59) Is n...   Feb 19 2013, 17:27
|- - jmvalin   QUOTE (Garf @ Feb 19 2013, 11:27) Yes, th...   Feb 19 2013, 21:07
- - scuttle   I thought it would be fun and informative to poke ...   Feb 17 2013, 17:33
- - Willakan   Good God, I have been reading/getting PMed on othe...   Feb 18 2013, 20:03
|- - Porcus   QUOTE (Willakan @ Feb 18 2013, 20:03) or ...   Feb 18 2013, 20:22
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Willakan @ Feb 18 2013, 11:03) Goo...   Feb 19 2013, 00:44
- - 2Bdecided   It's amazing what people conclude, given that ...   Feb 19 2013, 10:53
- - lvqcl   I didn't find any mention of FFT in this artic...   Feb 19 2013, 15:51
|- - greynol   QUOTE (lvqcl @ Feb 19 2013, 06:51) I didn...   Feb 19 2013, 16:56
- - Canar   The first thing that comes to my mind is: Now how ...   Feb 19 2013, 16:46
|- - Garf   QUOTE (Canar @ Feb 19 2013, 16:46) The fi...   Feb 19 2013, 17:32
- - Paulhoff   For those in the know.......... The Princess an...   Feb 20 2013, 19:51
- - Woodinville   It's still a confused headline. Recognzing one...   Feb 21 2013, 04:55
|- - Garf   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Feb 21 2013, 04:55) ...   Feb 21 2013, 07:54
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Garf @ Feb 20 2013, 22:54) QUOTE (...   Feb 22 2013, 04:22
- - dhromed   Yeah, we don't want to turn HA into an extensi...   Feb 21 2013, 10:02
- - 2Bdecided   Never mind the title, I still don't find a sat...   Feb 25 2013, 13:14
|- - knutinh   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Feb 25 2013, 13:14) Ne...   Feb 25 2013, 15:32
||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (knutinh @ Feb 25 2013, 14:32) I gu...   Feb 25 2013, 17:24
|- - jmvalin   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Feb 25 2013, 07:14) Ne...   Feb 26 2013, 00:10
- - Woodinville   There are a number of issues confused in this thre...   Feb 26 2013, 04:30
|- - Alexey Lukin   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Feb 25 2013, 23:30) ...   Mar 14 2013, 17:39
- - 2Bdecided   Thank you JJ.   Feb 26 2013, 10:57
- - krabapple   http://arstechnica.com/science/2013/02/hum...3s-so...   Feb 27 2013, 01:51
- - greynol   Well the quality of the comments look pretty encou...   Feb 27 2013, 02:44
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (greynol @ Feb 26 2013, 17:44) Well...   Feb 27 2013, 05:55
- - 2Bdecided   Interesting paper, thank you.   Mar 15 2013, 12:15
- - Yaakov Gringeler   EST is a new transform that can explain the result...   Apr 2 2013, 01:03
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Yaakov Gringeler @ Apr 1 2013, 17...   Apr 2 2013, 23:47
|- - Yaakov Gringeler   EST stands for Exponential Sum Transform and it us...   Apr 3 2013, 01:42
|- - Porcus   I think I could very well use a formula or two ......   Apr 3 2013, 20:34
- - Alexey Lukin   Yaakov, also check out the Reassigned spectrogram ...   Apr 2 2013, 23:59
- - Canar   I think a lot of us here would be interested in a ...   Apr 3 2013, 05:27
|- - Yaakov Gringeler   QUOTE (Canar @ Apr 3 2013, 05:27) I think...   Apr 3 2013, 18:14
- - db1989   If I may guess, I think he means that this site ha...   Apr 3 2013, 18:31
- - Yaakov Gringeler   The following link: http://www.mediafire.com/view...   Apr 3 2013, 22:10
- - Woodinville   Hm. Define "noiseless". Most instrumen...   Apr 11 2013, 11:09
- - Yaakov Gringeler   The paper described the mathematical basis of EST,...   Apr 11 2013, 19:33
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Yaakov Gringeler @ Apr 11 2013, 11...   Apr 11 2013, 20:36
|- - Yaakov Gringeler   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Apr 11 2013, 20:36) ...   Apr 11 2013, 21:32
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (Yaakov Gringeler @ Apr 11 2013, 13...   Jun 4 2013, 01:51
- - Specy   Over 10 years ago, for my master thesis, I wrote a...   Aug 17 2013, 11:52
- - Yaakov Gringeler   Several months ago, in posts in this topic, I prov...   Nov 4 2013, 20:15


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