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I like colored/distorted sound, Split from Topic ID: 99623 (TOS #5)
Neuron
post Feb 27 2013, 20:37
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Just to write something about "vinyl does not sound better", well, "betterness" is a very subjective thing. Many people. including me, actually like sound colored/distorted in a certain way, whatever it is old LP records, magnetic tape, or Amiga MODs made with raw crispy 16 Khz 8-bit samples without a reconstruction filter. I am a lo-fi guy and I am not afraid to admit that vinyl, tape, old samplers, Amiga 500, etc. are technologically highly inferior to CDs. However, for some people like me, accurate sound is not really the goal. Vinyl would sound "wrong" with an accurate frequency response and old tracked computer music would sound hideously muffled if "mathematically correct" anti-aliasing filters were applied. Obviously there is place for everything, for example, I wouldn't record bat recordings on vinyl and I don't want to hear heavy metal in MOD format with 16 Khz samples either. However there is absolutely nothing wrong with liking inaccurate sound. What is bad is pretending that those legendary vintage technologies are technologically superior to Redbook or higher resolution audio, as some vinyl lovers do. I am among the many people who love the sound of the legendary Amiga sound chip Paula and the sound of old samplers like Emulator II, but none of those fans would claim that their DACs are better than DACs on a modern 5.1 soundcard or whatever. The vinyl audiophiles should stop pretending that their love for vinyl is based on technological superiority.
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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Feb 27 2013, 23:40
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QUOTE (Neuron @ Feb 27 2013, 14:37) *
Just to write something about "vinyl does not sound better", well, "betterness" is a very subjective thing.


I don't think you give yourself enough credit. Are you constantly missing phone calls because when you hear your phone ring, you never recognize it as being your phone?

If this were true then your ears would be untrainable. I think you are better than that. I think your ears are trainable.

QUOTE
Many people. including me, actually like sound colored/distorted in a certain way, whatever it is old LP records, magnetic tape, or Amiga MODs made with raw crispy 16 Khz 8-bit samples without a reconstruction filter.


Those are not distorted just one way. Each of the distortions you have mentioned is a distinct and different form of distortion. Many of the forms of distortion you mention may be unique to just one piece of media.

QUOTE
I am a lo-fi guy and I am not afraid to admit that vinyl, tape, old samplers, Amiga 500, etc. are technologically highly inferior to CDs. However, for some people like me, accurate sound is not really the goal. Vinyl would sound "wrong" with an accurate frequency response and old tracked computer music would sound hideously muffled if "mathematically correct" anti-aliasing filters were applied. Obviously there is place for everything, for example, I wouldn't record bat recordings on vinyl and I don't want to hear heavy metal in MOD format with 16 Khz samples either. However there is absolutely nothing wrong with liking inaccurate sound. What is bad is pretending that those legendary vintage technologies are technologically superior to Redbook or higher resolution audio, as some vinyl lovers do. I am among the many people who love the sound of the legendary Amiga sound chip Paula and the sound of old samplers like Emulator II, but none of those fans would claim that their DACs are better than DACs on a modern 5.1 soundcard or whatever. The vinyl audiophiles should stop pretending that their love for vinyl is based on technological superiority.


In my opinon the more likely explanation is that you have a bias towards these recordings that is based on what you know about them by other means than just listening.
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db1989
post Feb 27 2013, 23:48
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QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Feb 27 2013, 22:40) *
I don't think you give yourself enough credit.
I don’t think you give Neuron enough credit!

QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Feb 27 2013, 22:40) *
QUOTE (Neuron @ Feb 27 2013, 14:37) *
Many people. including me, actually like sound colored/distorted in a certain way, whatever it is old LP records, magnetic tape, or Amiga MODs made with raw crispy 16 Khz 8-bit samples without a reconstruction filter.
Those are not distorted just one way. Each of the distortions you have mentioned is a distinct and different form of distortion. Many of the forms of distortion you mention may be unique to just one piece of media.
That’s why Neuron said “whatever it is”. The only person creating a false equivalence here is you. The point was exactly that the peculiar properties of a given device can give it individual character that some people might like, for whatever reason, even at the same time as they acknowledge its technical inferiority. Nowhere was it asserted that there is one type of universally pleasing distortion or any other lo-fi trait that all these devices share.

QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Feb 27 2013, 22:40) *
In my opinon the more likely explanation is that you have a bias towards these recordings that is based on what you know about them by other means than just listening.
Why is that? Not wanting to paint myself as reflective of someone else’s opinions but offering my own example as an analogy, I recognise that the chip in the Mega Drive is a corner-cutting monstrosity that, on paper and in some cases to the ears, is quite ugly. Still, I grew up with those sounds, and something about them works in some way. Some sounds just don’t sound ‘right’, normal, familiar, whatever on equipment with better signal-processing. You can attribute that all to nostalgia if you want, but it remains based on hearing, not on some story you might imagine I’ve heard. No, all the tales I’ve read about lo-fi equipment sound like horror stories. But we don’t listen with our eyes, do we?

This post has been edited by db1989: Feb 27 2013, 23:51
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2Bdecided
post Feb 28 2013, 11:29
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QUOTE (db1989 @ Feb 27 2013, 22:48) *
...I recognise that the chip in the Mega Drive is a corner-cutting monstrosity that, on paper and in some cases to the ears, is quite ugly. Still, I grew up with those sounds, and something about them works in some way. Some sounds just donít sound Ďrightí, normal, familiar, whatever on equipment with better signal-processing. You can attribute that all to nostalgia if you want, but it remains based on hearing, not on some story you might imagine Iíve heard.
These vintage sound chips are musical instruments in their own right, with their own characteristics.

In that context, you should no more criticise them for aliasing and distortion than you would criticise a violin for producing harmonics as well as the fundamental. A violin is not a sine wave generator. A vintage sound chip is not an accurate audio reproducer.

Of course, that's not how people saw them back in the day - they were irritated by their limitations and wanted to make them better. But so often in art we look back at limitations or quirks of a previous era and enjoy the impact they had on the art created then - be that paint palettes, instrument design or recording technologies.


I'm not sure this correlates all too well with the current vinyl discussion. It would have more relevance if we were talking about DJs mixing and scratching vinyl.

Interesting though that modern CD mastering practice is widely panned because (I forget where I read this so I'm paraphrasing) "it cannot be right that every recording is supposed to be harsh, dynamically squashed, and clipped" - whereas some vinyl fans are happy for the characteristics of vinyl to be imposed on every recording they listen to (those characteristics on a typical audiophile's set-up apparently being a V-shaped EQ, subtle background noise and distortion, etc).

Sorry for drifting OT.

On on topic: long story short is this: AFAIK no one has successfully ABX'd vinyl against vinyl looped through 16/44.1 conversion. It's not quite the question at hand, but it's a far easier test to perform than ABXing 16/44.1 sourced vinyl from 24/96 sourced vinyl.

Cheers,
David.

P.S. Irony with those old sound chips is that some pumped out huge amounts of ultrasonics that could, conceivably, cause an audible effect in-band when subsequently distorted by the amplifier or speakers. You'd need to sample at 96kHz or 192kHz if you wanted to preserve that effect.
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Nessuno
post Mar 1 2013, 19:31
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QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Feb 28 2013, 11:29) *
P.S. Irony with those old sound chips is that some pumped out huge amounts of ultrasonics that could, conceivably, cause an audible effect in-band when subsequently distorted by the amplifier or speakers. You'd need to sample at 96kHz or 192kHz if you wanted to preserve that effect.

And of course play them back with the same amplifiers and speakers... wink.gif


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Posts in this topic
- Neuron   I like colored/distorted sound   Feb 27 2013, 20:37
- - db1989   QUOTE (Neuron @ Feb 27 2013, 19:37) old t...   Feb 27 2013, 20:55
- - Hotsoup   I gravitate towards Neuron's point of view. Wh...   Feb 27 2013, 21:13
- - Neuron   Good cassetes aren't lo-fi through. A better e...   Feb 27 2013, 21:31
|- - Hotsoup   QUOTE (Neuron @ Feb 27 2013, 13:31) Good ...   Feb 27 2013, 21:48
||- - Neuron   QUOTE (Hotsoup @ Feb 27 2013, 21:48) QUOT...   Feb 27 2013, 22:08
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Neuron @ Feb 27 2013, 20:31) Good ...   Feb 28 2013, 11:56
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Feb 28 2013, 05:56) QU...   Feb 28 2013, 13:17
||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Feb 28 2013, 12...   Feb 28 2013, 15:11
|- - Neuron   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Feb 28 2013, 11:56) QU...   Mar 1 2013, 15:30
- - greynol   QUOTE (Neuron @ Feb 27 2013, 11:37) The v...   Feb 27 2013, 23:01
- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Neuron @ Feb 27 2013, 14:37) Just ...   Feb 27 2013, 23:40
|- - db1989   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Feb 27 2013, 22...   Feb 27 2013, 23:48
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (db1989 @ Feb 27 2013, 22:48) ...I ...   Feb 28 2013, 11:29
|- - Nessuno   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Feb 28 2013, 11:29) P....   Mar 1 2013, 19:31
- - Neuron   A recording with a DR of 4 is practically unlisten...   Mar 1 2013, 15:47
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Neuron @ Mar 1 2013, 06:47) About ...   Mar 1 2013, 19:06
|- - greynol   QUOTE (Neuron @ Mar 1 2013, 06:47) The di...   Mar 1 2013, 19:12
|- - Rollin   QUOTE (Neuron @ Mar 1 2013, 18:47) vinyl ...   Mar 1 2013, 19:59
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Neuron @ Mar 1 2013, 09:47) About ...   Mar 1 2013, 21:20
- - Neuron   BTW to respond to Arnold, no, I don't like LP ...   Mar 1 2013, 16:34
- - krabapple   This is in some ways coming down to whose anecdote...   Mar 1 2013, 16:59
- - Neuron   I can enjoy pop music with DRC, although honestly,...   Mar 1 2013, 17:06
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Neuron @ Mar 1 2013, 11:06) I can ...   Mar 2 2013, 00:26
- - greynol   There is no question that the two forms of media d...   Mar 1 2013, 19:01


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