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Full Version: Compatability between Nero AAC and iTunes AAC
Hydrogenaudio Forums > Lossy Audio Compression > AAC > AAC - Tech
doubrown
Nov 12 2007, 20:18
I had started a thread in the AAC General forum along similar lines, but thought this would be more appropriate. Plus, I'll rephrase the issue...

I maintain all of my audio library in FLAC. For portable players, I do a bulk conversion using Foobar or something similar. I recently purchased a Creative ZEN 16 GB flash player that supposedly supports "unprotected AAC". However, when I tried to play files encoded using the Nero AAC encoder the ZEN reported "Audio Format not supported". I tried using the "Optimize MP4 format" utility in Foobar to no avail. I then tried encoding from iTunes and the AAC file played fine on the ZEN.

This is frustrating for a number of reasons. Unprotected AAC should be unprotected AAC. The Nero AAC encoder has far better reviews than that in iTunes. Can anybody explain this compatibility issue or better yet, pose a solution?
menno
Nov 13 2007, 00:23
You could try optimizing the file with mp4creator (mp4creator -optimize file.mp4, I guess you can find this tool somewhere)
Might be the same problem that the iPod shuffle is having, and foobar's optimize option doesn't fix that it seems.
goodnews
Nov 13 2007, 01:11
QUOTE(menno @ Nov 13 2007, 00:23) *

You could try optimizing the file with mp4creator (mp4creator -optimize file.mp4, I guess you can find this tool somewhere)
Might be the same problem that the iPod shuffle is having, and foobar's optimize option doesn't fix that it seems.

Do you have any plans to fix it (in Nero products) as it appears to be a problem unique which your software encoder is introducing... (i.e. your software does not appear to be 100% iPod/iTunes unprotected AAC file format compatible)? Since both the Creative Zen and iPod Shuffle play back iTunes created unprotected AAC files, the best fix would logically seem to be on your software encoder's end, wouldn't it?
menno
Nov 13 2007, 01:36
QUOTE(goodnews @ Nov 13 2007, 08:11) *

QUOTE(menno @ Nov 13 2007, 00:23) *

You could try optimizing the file with mp4creator (mp4creator -optimize file.mp4, I guess you can find this tool somewhere)
Might be the same problem that the iPod shuffle is having, and foobar's optimize option doesn't fix that it seems.

Do you have any plans to fix it (in Nero products)


Sure
And it's not a fix, it's a workaround to someone else's problems.

QUOTE
as it appears to be a problem unique which your software encoder is introducing...


I didn't test all software that produces MP4 files, but this is very hard to believe.

QUOTE
(i.e. your software does not appear to be 100% iPod/iTunes unprotected AAC file format compatible)?


This is the world upside down!

Are we supposed to accept that "iPod/iTunes unprotected AAC file format" is something different than the AAC format that ISO specified? I don't think so. This is a problem in the Shuffle (and maybe the Zen, but don't draw any conclusions before we know for sure), Apple should fix it. But in the meantime, we can for sure create files less efficiently to make them play on the Shuffle.
goodnews
Nov 13 2007, 01:43
Yes, by the way, your customers expect you to be 100% compatible with the world's (and the U.S.A.'s) #1 digital audio player and digital audio store. If Apple is wrong, then sure they should fix it. But a person who says basically "we must not bow to Apple" is also wrong in my opinion. Nero is not the AAC standard leader, Apple is. They implemented the tagging for AAC files that has become the de facto standard in use by most M4A audio tagging programs today.

I am somewhat concerned Menno by this and your other responses to threads here on HydrogenAudio that you are not properly caring about the needs and best interests of your customers. You don't even give your customers an option to save AAC files with a .M4A extension (when it is used much more than .mp4 for MPEG 4 Audio today)! I beg of you to please better support your Apple iPod/iTunes customers.
menno
Nov 13 2007, 01:55
Did I say we are not making the workaround? I only said that your wording is a bit backwards by making it seem that this is our bug/fault instead of Apple's. You just seem to be spreading some FUD.

QUOTE
I am somewhat concerned Menno that your "German inflexible, hard-headed mentality"

I'm not German, this is pretty much the biggest insult you can make to a Dutch person...
goodnews
Nov 13 2007, 02:01
I withdrew my opinion about you being like a typical hard-headed German, but you need to realize that we (your customers) want quality products that work with our iPods and iTunes. Please add FLAC native support also to Nero. I have been asking for that for years, as the old, outdated freeware Nero FLAC plugin is buggy and doesn't work with mono files. Also I have been asking for an option to save with .m4a extension instead of .mp4 for years also. I just feel your company is not responsive to reasonable user suggestions/input/improvement feedback, hence the hard-headed comment. Maybe a better word would be "conceited" and "ivory towered thinking" about Nero audio devs who think that they control the MPEG 4 Audio spec and seem to be uncaring about user needs.
Nick.C
Nov 13 2007, 02:04
QUOTE(goodnews @ Nov 13 2007, 08:01) *

I withdrew my opinion about you being like a typical hard-headed German
Noted, though with no apparent apology for this quasi-racist comment....
QUOTE(goodnews @ Nov 13 2007, 08:01) *
but you need to realize that we (your customers) want quality products that work with our iPods and iTunes.
So, the Apple encoder is implicitly not a quality product?
goodnews
Nov 13 2007, 02:10
No racist remark. I am German and I thought since Nero was a German company that he was German as well. Also there is a common stereotype that Germans are "hard-headed". No racism. People need to get off their political correctness bandwagon and speak their opinions (as I did) freely. If I get banned from this forum, so be it, and I won't come back. At least I had "the guts" to speak my mind in freedom. But I couldn't let a software vendor (in this case Nero) get by with what I believe is inferior customer support of FLAC, lack of .m4a audio extension naming support for file saving, and iTunes/iPod incompatible encoding. They needed to be "called on the carpet" for their lack of support of these popular items that they should have supported long ago. [/Done with my rant now] P.S. At least I have free speech in America! Thank God! I can express my opinions about people and companies and complain about their products all I like legally, as long as I endeavor to use true statements, which I have done in my posts here.
menno
Nov 13 2007, 02:17
It's simple, we do everything we can to make our files work on iPod's or any players (iPod's are not the only players out there that need huge workarounds), I don't think you can deny that. Also, we are giving away a free (and high quality) AAC encoder that can be used fine to encode directly to files with an .m4a extension.
Regarding some of our other products I cannot comment, there is different product management involved etc etc. As far as I understood, direct iPod support will improve in our future products.

This thread is going a bit off topic, let's wait what doubrown finds out with his Zen.

And I understood your comment about Germans correctly, just felt I had to comment on it (as said, it's a big insult wink.gif ). Don't want people to think I'm German.
seanyseansean
Nov 13 2007, 06:01
It's nice to see Goodnews managed to get a mention for his favourite deity in this thread, while simultaneously being obnoxious.

On topic:

Menno: Could you perhaps explain the issues involved in the incompatibility? I'd prefer to use Nero, are the differences fundamental or is there a lossless way of fixing the problem?

Also, FYI, the Zen (I have one) only advertises compatibility with iTunes AAC, they are quite specific. Is there any reason for this, patents or hardware decode complexity maybe?


EDIT: The Zen seems to reject the Nero files in the 'pre processing' stage where it's reading the tags. Could the tags be the issue?

Sean
Synthetic Soul
Nov 13 2007, 06:34
Can we please drop any reference to members' nationality from this thread?

The blatant and indirect bogotry touching this thread threatens to see its demise unless stopped immediately.

Edit: Oh, that goes for casual insults also.
menno
Nov 13 2007, 06:44
QUOTE(seanyseansean @ Nov 13 2007, 13:01) *


Menno: Could you perhaps explain the issues involved in the incompatibility? I'd prefer to use Nero, are the differences fundamental or is there a lossless way of fixing the problem?


It's only in the MP4 header data. Basically it is possible to write some variable length data, but at least the iPod Shuffle 2nd Generation only reads the file if this data is written in 4 bytes (like most MP4 file writing applications seem to do). As for example mp4creator perfectly reads our files, but always writes the 4 byte data it can be used to losslessly convert the files and make it work. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the actual AAC data.

QUOTE

Also, FYI, the Zen (I have one) only advertises compatibility with iTunes AAC, they are quite specific. Is there any reason for this, patents or hardware decode complexity maybe?


I think only marketing reasons, as said iTunes AAC should be exactly the same as any other AAC.

QUOTE

EDIT: The Zen seems to reject the Nero files in the 'pre processing' stage where it's reading the tags. Could the tags be the issue?


It could yes, maybe even missing tags.
doubrown
Nov 13 2007, 07:43
I'll try mp4creator when I get home from work tonight. I really want to stick with the Nero encoder!

So far Tech Support from Creative has not been helpful.
doubrown
Nov 13 2007, 19:49
mp4creator did not fix the problem sad.gif

Any other suggestions
doubrown
Nov 13 2007, 20:40
I also tried the -hinttrack option with the Nero encoder and found no difference.

Below is the metadata output from mp4dump for the same wav encoded with iTunes and Nero. Obviously the file sizes, bit rate, encode time etc. will be different. You can do a document compare using something like MS Word to highlight the differences:

Dumping nero.m4a meta-information...

CODE
type ftyp
majorBrand = mp42
minorVersion = 0 (0x00000000)
<table entries suppressed>
type moov
type mvhd
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
creationTime = 3277851878 (0xc3600ce6)
modificationTime = 3277851902 (0xc3600cfe)
timeScale = 90000 (0x00015f90)
duration = 27755355 (0x01a7835b)
rate = 1.000000
volume = 1.000000
reserved1 = <70 bytes>
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 40 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00
nextTrackId = 2 (0x00000002)
type trak
type tkhd
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 7 (0x000007)
creationTime = 3277851878 (0xc3600ce6)
modificationTime = 3277851902 (0xc3600cfe)
trackId = 1 (0x00000001)
reserved1 = <4 bytes> 00 00 00 00
duration = 27755355 (0x01a7835b)
reserved2 = <12 bytes> 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
volume = 1.000000
reserved3 = <38 bytes>
00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 40 00 00 00
width = 0.000000
height = 0.000000
type mdia
type mdhd
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
creationTime = 3277851878 (0xc3600ce6)
modificationTime = 3277851902 (0xc3600cfe)
timeScale = 44100 (0x0000ac44)
duration = 13600124 (0x00cf857c)
language = 21956 (0x55c4)
reserved = <2 bytes> 00 00
type hdlr
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
reserved1 = <4 bytes> 00 00 00 00
handlerType = soun
reserved2 = <12 bytes> 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
name = Sound Media Handler
type minf
type smhd
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
reserved = <4 bytes> 00 00 00 00
type dinf
type dref
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
entryCount = 1 (0x00000001)
type url
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 1 (0x000001)
location = (null)
type stbl
type stsd
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
entryCount = 1 (0x00000001)
type mp4a
reserved1 = <6 bytes> 00 00 00 00 00 00
dataReferenceIndex = 1 (0x0001)
soundVersion = 0 (0x0000)
reserved2 = <6 bytes> 00 00 00 00 00 00
channels = 2 (0x0002)
sampleSize = 16 (0x0010)
packetSize = 0 (0x0000)
timeScale = 44100 (0x0000ac44)
reserved3 = <2 bytes> 00 00
type esds
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
ESID = 0 (0x0000)
streamDependenceFlag = 0 (0x0) <1 bits>
URLFlag = 0 (0x0) <1 bits>
OCRstreamFlag = 0 (0x0) <1 bits>
streamPriority = 0 (0x00) <5 bits>
decConfigDescr
objectTypeId = 64 (0x40)
streamType = 5 (0x05) <6 bits>
upStream = 0 (0x0) <1 bits>
reserved = 1 (0x1) <1 bits>
bufferSizeDB = 848 (0x000350) <24 bits>
maxBitrate = 232968 (0x00038e08)
avgBitrate = 200896 (0x000310c0)
decSpecificInfo
info = <5 bytes> 12 10 56 e5 00
profileLevelIndicationIndexDescr
slConfigDescr
predefined = 2 (0x02)
ipiPtr
ipIds
ipmpDescrPtr
langDescr
qosDescr
regDescr
extDescr
type stts
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
entryCount = 2 (0x00000002)
<table entries suppressed>
type stsc
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
entryCount = 2 (0x00000002)
<table entries suppressed>
type stsz
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
sampleSize = 0 (0x00000000)
sampleCount = 13282 (0x000033e2)
<table entries suppressed>
type stco
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
entryCount = 831 (0x0000033f)
<table entries suppressed>
type udta
type ndrm
data = <7 bytes> 00 00 00 01 00 00 00
type meta
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
type hdlr
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
reserved1 = <4 bytes> 00 00 00 00
handlerType = mdir
reserved2 = <12 bytes> 61 70 70 6c 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
name =
type ilst
type ----
type mean
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
metadata = <16 bytes> 63 6f 6d 2e 61 70 70 6c 65 2e 69 54 75 6e 65 73
type name
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
metadata = <21 bytes>
72 65 70 6c 61 79 67 61 69 6e 5f 61 6c 62 75 6d
5f 67 61 69 6e
type data
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 1 (0x000001)
reserved2 = <4 bytes> 00 00 00 00
metadata = <8 bytes> 2d 33 2e 31 31 20 64 42
type ----
type mean
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
metadata = <16 bytes> 63 6f 6d 2e 61 70 70 6c 65 2e 69 54 75 6e 65 73
type name
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
metadata = <21 bytes>
72 65 70 6c 61 79 67 61 69 6e 5f 61 6c 62 75 6d
5f 70 65 61 6b
type data
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 1 (0x000001)
reserved2 = <4 bytes> 00 00 00 00
metadata = <8 bytes> 30 2e 39 38 31 35 33 32
type ----
type mean
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
metadata = <16 bytes> 63 6f 6d 2e 61 70 70 6c 65 2e 69 54 75 6e 65 73
type name
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
metadata = <21 bytes>
72 65 70 6c 61 79 67 61 69 6e 5f 74 72 61 63 6b
5f 67 61 69 6e
type data
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 1 (0x000001)
reserved2 = <4 bytes> 00 00 00 00
metadata = <8 bytes> 2d 33 2e 31 31 20 64 42
type ----
type mean
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
metadata = <16 bytes> 63 6f 6d 2e 61 70 70 6c 65 2e 69 54 75 6e 65 73
type name
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
metadata = <21 bytes>
72 65 70 6c 61 79 67 61 69 6e 5f 74 72 61 63 6b
5f 70 65 61 6b
type data
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 1 (0x000001)
reserved2 = <4 bytes> 00 00 00 00
metadata = <8 bytes> 30 2e 39 38 31 35 33 32
type ⌐too
type data
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 1 (0x000001)
reserved2 = <4 bytes> 00 00 00 00
metadata = <28 bytes>
4e 65 72 6f 20 41 41 43 20 63 6f 64 65 63 20 2f
20 41 75 67 20 20 36 20 32 30 30 37
type chpl
data = <18 bytes>
01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 09 14
43 00
type mdat


Dumping itunes.m4a meta-information...

CODE
type ftyp
majorBrand = M4A
minorVersion = 0 (0x00000000)
<table entries suppressed>
type moov
type mvhd
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
creationTime = 3277827036 (0xc35fabdc)
modificationTime = 3277827057 (0xc35fabf1)
timeScale = 44100 (0x0000ac44)
duration = 13599744 (0x00cf8400)
rate = 1.000000
volume = 1.000000
reserved1 = <70 bytes>
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 40 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00
nextTrackId = 2 (0x00000002)
type trak
type tkhd
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 7 (0x000007)
creationTime = 3277827036 (0xc35fabdc)
modificationTime = 3277827057 (0xc35fabf1)
trackId = 1 (0x00000001)
reserved1 = <4 bytes> 00 00 00 00
duration = 13599744 (0x00cf8400)
reserved2 = <12 bytes> 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
volume = 1.000000
reserved3 = <38 bytes>
00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 40 00 00 00
width = 0.000000
height = 0.000000
type mdia
type mdhd
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
creationTime = 3277827036 (0xc35fabdc)
modificationTime = 3277827057 (0xc35fabf1)
timeScale = 44100 (0x0000ac44)
duration = 13599744 (0x00cf8400)
language = 21956 (0x55c4)
reserved = <2 bytes> 00 00
type hdlr
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
reserved1 = <4 bytes> 00 00 00 00
handlerType = soun
reserved2 = <12 bytes> 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
name =
type minf
type smhd
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
reserved = <4 bytes> 00 00 00 00
type dinf
type dref
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
entryCount = 1 (0x00000001)
type url
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 1 (0x000001)
location = (null)
type stbl
type stsd
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
entryCount = 1 (0x00000001)
type mp4a
reserved1 = <6 bytes> 00 00 00 00 00 00
dataReferenceIndex = 1 (0x0001)
soundVersion = 0 (0x0000)
reserved2 = <6 bytes> 00 00 00 00 00 00
channels = 2 (0x0002)
sampleSize = 16 (0x0010)
packetSize = 0 (0x0000)
timeScale = 44100 (0x0000ac44)
reserved3 = <2 bytes> 00 00
type esds
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
ESID = 0 (0x0000)
streamDependenceFlag = 0 (0x0) <1 bits>
URLFlag = 0 (0x0) <1 bits>
OCRstreamFlag = 0 (0x0) <1 bits>
streamPriority = 0 (0x00) <5 bits>
decConfigDescr
objectTypeId = 64 (0x40)
streamType = 5 (0x05) <6 bits>
upStream = 0 (0x0) <1 bits>
reserved = 1 (0x1) <1 bits>
bufferSizeDB = 6144 (0x001800) <24 bits>
maxBitrate = 23898624 (0x016caa00)
avgBitrate = 203143 (0x00031987)
decSpecificInfo
info = <2 bytes> 12 10
profileLevelIndicationIndexDescr
slConfigDescr
predefined = 2 (0x02)
ipiPtr
ipIds
ipmpDescrPtr
langDescr
qosDescr
regDescr
extDescr
type stts
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
entryCount = 1 (0x00000001)
<table entries suppressed>
type stsc
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
entryCount = 2 (0x00000002)
<table entries suppressed>
type stsz
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
sampleSize = 0 (0x00000000)
sampleCount = 13281 (0x000033e1)
<table entries suppressed>
type stco
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
entryCount = 633 (0x00000279)
<table entries suppressed>
type udta
type meta
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
type hdlr
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
reserved1 = <4 bytes> 00 00 00 00
handlerType = mdir
reserved2 = <12 bytes> 61 70 70 6c 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
name =
type ilst
type ⌐nam
type data
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 1 (0x000001)
reserved2 = <4 bytes> 00 00 00 00
metadata = <31 bytes>
30 31 2e 20 41 20 46 6c 6f 63 6b 20 6f 66 20 53
65 61 67 75 6c 6c 73 20 2d 20 49 20 52 61 6e
type cpil
type data
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 21 (0x000015)
reserved2 = <4 bytes> 00 00 00 00
metadata = <1 bytes> 00
type pgap
data = <17 bytes>
00 00 00 11 64 61 74 61 00 00 00 15 00 00 00 00
00
type tmpo
type data
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 21 (0x000015)
reserved2 = <4 bytes> 00 00 00 00
metadata = <2 bytes> 00 00
type ⌐too
type data
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 1 (0x000001)
reserved2 = <4 bytes> 00 00 00 00
metadata = <33 bytes>
69 54 75 6e 65 73 20 76 37 2e 35 2e 30 2e 32 30
2c 20 51 75 69 63 6b 54 69 6d 65 20 37 2e 31 2e
36
type ----
type mean
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
metadata = <16 bytes> 63 6f 6d 2e 61 70 70 6c 65 2e 69 54 75 6e 65 73
type name
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
metadata = <8 bytes> 69 54 75 6e 53 4d 50 42
type data
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 1 (0x000001)
reserved2 = <4 bytes> 00 00 00 00
metadata = <116 bytes>
20 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 20 30 30 30 30 30 38
34 30 20 30 30 30 30 30 30 38 34 20 30 30 30 30
30 30 30 30 30 30 43 46 37 42 33 43 20 30 30 30
30 30 30 30 30 20 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 20 30
30 30 30 30 30 30 30 20 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
20 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 20 30 30 30 30 30 30
30 30 20 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 20 30 30 30 30
30 30 30 30
type ----
type mean
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
metadata = <16 bytes> 63 6f 6d 2e 61 70 70 6c 65 2e 69 54 75 6e 65 73
type name
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 0 (0x000000)
metadata = <8 bytes> 69 54 75 6e 4e 4f 52 4d
type data
version = 0 (0x00)
flags = 1 (0x000001)
reserved2 = <4 bytes> 00 00 00 00
metadata = <90 bytes>
20 30 30 30 30 30 35 41 32 20 30 30 30 30 30 36
41 41 20 30 30 30 30 31 42 39 46 20 30 30 30 30
32 43 31 42 20 30 30 30 34 31 31 36 31 20 30 30
30 34 38 31 41 46 20 30 30 30 30 37 45 34 32 20
30 30 30 30 37 39 44 39 20 30 30 30 33 39 37 31
41 20 30 30 30 31 32 36 30 46
type free
type free
type mdat

Moderation: Please post long logs sensibly! CODEBOX tags added.
OJ829
Nov 15 2007, 11:07
QUOTE(goodnews @ Nov 13 2007, 02:43) *

Yes, by the way, your customers expect you to be 100% compatible with the world's (and the U.S.A.'s) #1 digital audio player and digital audio store. If Apple is wrong, then sure they should fix it. But a person who says basically "we must not bow to Apple" is also wrong in my opinion.


I use dbpoweramp's MusicConverter R11.5 (the last "free" one) and their m4a codec, in conjunction with Nero's free standalone encoder. This process creates .m4a files (no manual renaming necessary) which present no problem at all playing or re-tagging in iTunes; or playing on any of my four genuine Ipods.

From my understanding, some problems may remain: playing on Ipod shuffles, genuine gapless playback, etc. I personally do not have worries in these areas as they're not important to me, so YMMV, obviously. Also, tagging is not an issue for me since I allow Winamp's Media Library to do all the work in that area after I have created the .m4a files and arranged them in an "artist\album\nn Track.m4a" hierarchy.

If pure iTunes/iPod compatibility is your core demand, it seems to be available there depending on the "shell" you use with the Nero encoder.
soultrain
Nov 15 2007, 13:04
Just to let you know, there is a new Zen firmware out, maybe the fixed the aac problem, however the faq doesnt mentioned it.


Edit: forget it i dloaded nero, made a aac, tried to import to the Zen -> message : format not supported.
arthurb
Feb 6 2008, 14:29
QUOTE(soultrain @ Nov 15 2007, 19:04) *

Just to let you know, there is a new Zen firmware out, maybe the fixed the aac problem, however the faq doesnt mentioned it.


Edit: forget it i dloaded nero, made a aac, tried to import to the Zen -> message : format not supported.



I am very confused about this soultrain, I have a Creative ZEN (only 4GB), that I bought just after Christmas here in the UK, and I am listening to AAC files quite happily. They mainly digital copies of LPs copied onto the PC as .wavs, edited using Nero (WaveEditor), converted to AAC using dBpoweramp (which uses the Nero AAC encoder), and copied to the ZEN using Creative Media Explorer. The ZEN not only plays the files, but also appears to use the tags for the Music Library, and, so far, all seems to be fine (dBpoweramp Converter does however use APE tags as default with AAC files). I should add that those files are read and played by RealPlayer as well.

As to the question of compatibility and where blame should lie for difficulties in playing/using files from Apple, I would point the finger at Apple; they would be the likely culprit for sowing confusion and trying to make problems for other companies (in much the same way as MS do). I have had many irritating problems with Nero Version 7, but they are all to do with little bugs in the user interfaces (of the various components) making it tricky to use until you become very (VERY) familiar with it. This, allied to documentation which looks very good until you use it and find it is just not quite right, means Nero is not quite the product it could and should be. But, it still does a pretty good job, and on this issue of AAC files, I can only believe that Nero are getting it right and Apple are wilfully getting it wrong. Others here, in this thread, have suggested that Nero MUST conform to Apple's 'standards', but how do you conform to the methods of a company that wants to create and then protect a monopoly position.

Just one last thought Menno; has anyone at your company thought of raising this issue of AAC standards and Apple's behaviour with the EU competition authorities? They would have the power to force Apple to stick to standards, or at least refrain from making arbitrary changes.



arthurb
Feb 7 2008, 08:42
Menno,
I use a Creative ZEN (see my previous post), but I use .aac files created by dBpoweramp using the Nero AAC encoder, and my AAC files play perfectly on the ZEN and the Music Library on it appears to work fine too. I should add that dBpa uses APE tags in .aac files, but, according to it's documentation, uses iTunes tags in .m4a files. Sometime today or tomorrow I will generate some M4A files and see if they play on the ZEN. *

I still think some pressure should be put on Apple to create/adopt standards for M4A tags, and it will only be something like the EU that will do it.

* Sun 10/2/08 Both .aac and .m4a files play fine on the ZEN, and on the PC of course, and the tags are ok too (I have now switched to using only .m4a files). On the PC both RealPlayer and Media Monkey seem happy with Nero's AAC files. Seems like there is no problem between Nero AAC and anything else that uses AAC. Is there really a problem with iTunes? If so I can only wonder why.
doubrown
Feb 11 2008, 00:30
If I use DBPowerAmp with Nero AAC to create files, they play fine on the ZEN. Previously, I was usuing J River Media Center as a ripper. The strange thing is that the AAC files created using J River Media Center work fine on my Microsoft Zune and Archos 605, but not the ZEN. Regardless, I will be using DBPowerAmp for all ripping and conversions from now on.
plageclochard
Feb 13 2008, 21:57
For what it's worth, I have a Creative ZEN (with the latest firmware, 1.20.02), and files ripped in m4a using dBpoweramp do NOT work for me...using ZEN Media Explorer, I can load the files onto the ZEN, they will appear in both artist and album categories, album art will display fine, and when I try to play a song it will even display the correct time remaining, but it simply won't play and I get the "Audio format is not supported" error.

I'd be glad to try different configurations and post configs, but it'd be great if I could get the exact dBpoweramp settings that users such as arthurb and doubrown are using.
seanyseansean
Feb 14 2008, 06:41
QUOTE(plageclochard @ Feb 14 2008, 04:57) *

For what it's worth, I have a Creative ZEN (with the latest firmware, 1.20.02), and files ripped in m4a using dBpoweramp do NOT work for me...using ZEN Media Explorer, I can load the files onto the ZEN, they will appear in both artist and album categories, album art will display fine, and when I try to play a song it will even display the correct time remaining, but it simply won't play and I get the "Audio format is not supported" error.

I'd be glad to try different configurations and post configs, but it'd be great if I could get the exact dBpoweramp settings that users such as arthurb and doubrown are using.


The latest firmware doesn't work with aac at all - and Creative support are absolutely useless. You'll need to downgrade to the older firmware labelled ZEN_PCFW_L21_1_03_04.exe

Sean
Nick E
Feb 14 2008, 06:50
QUOTE(seanyseansean @ Feb 14 2008, 06:41) *

The latest firmware doesn't work with aac at all - and Creative support are absolutely useless. You'll need to downgrade to the older firmware labelled ZEN_PCFW_L21_1_03_04.exe

Sean


Meeting a Zen master on the road,
Face him with neither words nor silence.
Give him an uppercut
And you will be called one who understands Zen

Mumon
arthurb
Feb 16 2008, 18:58
Hello plageclochard,
I don't think I am using any odd settings for dBpa Converter; I have only been using it for three or four weeks (just about to pay up - it is amazingly good value). For conversion from Wave to m4a I am using the 'M4A Nero (AAC) Release 7' Codec, according to the configuration utility. But, it might be worth noting that I am currently digitising quite a few LPs, and most of the files come from that process, with a few others direct from CD (none from other compressed formats, lossy or lossless). I use Nero Express to Rip CDs to Wave, and my vinyl albums are recorded on a Marantz CD Recorder in the hi-fi set-up. CDs recorded in the hi-fi are then dumped/ripped via Nero Express to the PC into Wave format, edited with Nero Wave Editor into tracks and then tagged using dBpa; ripped CDs are also tagged using dBpa. These .wav files therefore only have basic album and track information in the RIFF Chunks, and the files/tracks are converted using dBMC into M4A files. Any detailed tagging is done when they are in the m4a format.

I'm not sure what level the firmware is on my ZEN as it is not to hand at the moment, but I will check tomorrow and let you know.

It could be that the tags I have been using are simple, and that fact, along with the ZEN firmware probably not being the latest (bought at Christmas in UK not updated), may explain my welcome lack of problems; or there may of course have been a faulty batch of ZENs...

I will come back to this to see if I can help with any data.
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