Take a look at what this happened to this poor guy:

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=11299

It's a shame to express superiority by calling someone a newbie'.

On the other hand, more stickies would be needed in each forum & a 5-day delay between registration & posting right would be useful to learn the power of the search function.

edit: sorry about the topic title though... btw: did not look like 'trolling' to me!

We all were newbies one day.

edit: "bullshit" deleted.

He was first called a "newbie" after making the above statements. No one called him a newbie for asking the question for which the thread was intended. It was only after his repeated hostility and sarcasm that someone called him a newbie. While I wouldn't resort to name calling, I also wouldn't consider calling someone a "newbie" slanderous.

Edit: I would also currently consider myself a newbie.

having read that thread, it doesn't appear he was being that hostile at all. I think you guys were picking on him.

There is a world of difference, size-wise, between the ~50% compression offered by lossless encoders, and the ~300% compression offered by Ogg at even the highest bitrates. One can be rationalized much easier than the other, IMO as well.

So he didn't articulate this fact very well... so what! You sounded like a bunch of snobs. It wasn't even the point of his post, for chrissake. A simple explanation of percetual transparency would have sufficed.

Now I think it's your time to explain what you actually mean, because I can't understand you either. How do you come to those percentages of 50 and 300% respectively?

My calculations
Lossless: 1400 -> ~700 kbps = 50% compression
Vorbis -q10: 1400 -> ~500 kbps = 65% compression

So somewhere between 50 and 65 % is a magical limit where size becomes inacceptable, but for anything below, size doesn't matter? "Oh, well, if you say so..." or what should I say?

I think that not only a FAQ, but a dedicated website to accompany this forum is desperately needed at this point, given the growing popularity of the board. In fact, the website ought to be the front page (containing links to sign up for and enter the forum).

IMO, that could help a great deal with this issue -- which I think is only going to get worse as time goes on, if nothing is done about it. It's something that's not only affecting newcomers, but long time members as well (and I'm not talking about this specific case in isolation).

Now that HA is hosting some cool sites like Rarewares and Foobar2000, it seems to me like a natural extension of things to tie it all together with a front page (which also includes other easy to find audio-related information, so people aren't tempted to sign up merely to ask a single question).

P.S. If this idea ever takes off, I'd be happy to volunteer some sort of assistance... not sure what, but something (a financial donation to help support increased traffic and etc. is a possibility, or perhaps some light web design and/or maintenance -- I'm not an expert).

After briefly skimming that thread, I don't quite understand why everyone is pitying this guy.

It looks like a classic case to me:

New user comes to the forums and asks a question. Someone points out that perhaps he is not asking the right questions or that there are better alternatives than he appears to currently see. He doesn't like this, and instead wants someone to give him *only* one of the answers that he has already come up with himself. People again try to explain the situation and then he gets pissed off, etc, etc.

Seriously.. if someone is coming to a forum such as this and asking for advice, they need to be willing to listen to the answers they get and possibly even the corrections to certain misconceptions they have. After all, they are asking someone else who supposedly knows the answer to a question which they don't, which would imply that they feel the other person is more knowledgable in this regard. If they don't feel this way then why are they bothering to waste peoples time with the question? If all they want is some validation for their choice, this is not really the appropriate way to handle the matter.

For what it's worth, this guy did appear to receive answers in direct response to his original question too, so I don't see why he had to get so upset.

I also don't think anyone in that thread was out to pick on this guy. With the exception of maybe one post (made after he was already becoming sarcastic/hostile), the comments made were simply corrections. Perhaps these were a bit blunt at times, but they certainly were not insulting or malicious, he just seemed to take them personally which was a mistake.

I just wanna say that I agree with lucpes and fewtch regarding some of the measures that could be taken to ensure this wouldn't happen so much. I think that more proper FAQs (regarding Musepack, Ogg Vorbis and AAC - this last one has a great reference site and board, which is audiocoding.com) and/or website are already planned. I've been here since almost the beginning and though I don't post that much, I usually read the board several times a day. But sometimes I have a hard time getting what I need using the search. The newbies (in this forum) sure have a harder time than I...

I also agree that a 5-day delay between registration & posting permission would also help diminishing this kind of threads. This may be a polemic measure and it's up to the admins to decide upon it. I've already been a "victim" of this measure in doom9's forums and it didn't "hurt" me much...

cya

Speaking as a "newbie" myself, I haven't had too much of a problem finding out anything I needed to know here. I arrived with some pretty stupid ideas. Quickly learned to *listen* to people who know more than I do. Learned about ABX. Used ABX. Settled on what I considered to be the best encoding option for my needs. Used Search and the FAQs to answer any questions I had in the interim. The rare occasions I couldn't find an answer with those facilities, THEN I would ask people questions. I've been treated with a great deal of respect, even more than I could have expected.

"ILoveJazzAndNewOrleans" was not a typical newbie, IMO. He seemed very insecure, and on edge about every comment people were making, taking most comments the wrong way. As a newbie (who doesn't mind calling himself a newbie), all I know is *I* don't want to be compared to him.

As for a "5-day posting delay", it may serve to prevent some people from asking questions that have been asked and answered a thousand times here (hence *searchable*), but what if they register, note the "5-day waiting period", then don't come back at all for 5 days. It may or may not have the intended result...it certainly won't "force" people to research before posting worn-out questions. It may be a good starting point, I'm just saying it probably won't be a total solution. You'll always have occasional "newbie know-it-alls" and the occasional generally snotty person who slips through.

I hate those kinds of newbie-blockers. I was a regular reader at Doom9 for six months before I finally had an advanced question that wasn't answered anywhere on the site. Guess what--I couldn't ask it for three days!

Regarding this specific ILoveJazz situation, I don't think it's totally cut-and-dry. Yes, HA forum members gave knowledgeable recommendations, and the new guy didn't like them. Most of the comments given by HA members even had their reasoning explained as well, so ILoveJazz wasn't expected to follow the advice given to him on blind faith. He also sounded a bit like a "cowboy", spending most of his post count on rebutting people's statements rather than getting useful information from responses to his question.

On the other hand, no one gave this guy some real numbers proving that Ogg -q10 is almost the same size as lossless. He thought that 2 losslessly-compressed Miles Davis CD's would be 1GB; for two 60-minute Jazz CD's, the size would likely be closer to 500MB. Since ILoveJazz didn't understand the extent of the savings possible with lossless compression, it's understandable that he would be hesitant to accept everyone's suggestions for the use of lossless compression.

Still, sld's 'newbie' comment was on the same level as ILoveJazz's previous posts, and ILoveJazz responsed with a huge rant, where in the middle somewhere he buried a concession that he was wrong anyway. He entered a new community, and he should have been cautiously polite to the established forum members. Instead, ILoveJazz took offense at silly things like ErikS's quoting because he didn't spend any time or effort getting to know the forum environment here. There have been situations where uncalled-for newbie bashing has occurred, but IMO this isn't one of them.

Same here. I read most forums without registration and only register when I have something to post.

Also, as was mentioned before, this way you can't force someone to use search, read other people's post carefully or whatever.

-Eugene

Wasn't there some discussion at one time of creating a n00b forum? I think this might solve some of these problems.

I would second this idea, I think a dedicated front page would help not only with implimenting some serious noob friendly features, but also in de-cluttering the interface a user is greeted with somewhat.

The links to hosted sites and the FAQ, as well other prominent audio sites can be given more attention on the website, clearing more space on the portal for the information you actually go there to see.. (the news / topics)

I personally find portal sites among the most unfriendly to use when starting off looking for something - the amount of information is overwhelming and isn't organized to my benefit. A website the contained all the basic information (and say, a mirror of the news) would have what the new folk need, in an accessible manner.

No disrespect to Pio for his work on the FAQ, but I would love to see some actual guides you could direct people to specifically (ala doom9) - I don't place as much confidence in the FAQ as it is based around threads, which can run off topic or take a page of solid reading to get to the answers you are after.

I can see trouble with this. I suppose not many knowledgable users would participate in this forum. Newbies start discussing with other newbies -> a breeding pot for false information and missconceptions.

I'm no friend of delays either. It only pisses people off who have a question burning on their tounge.

A comprehensive guide is what we need. Common questions, common missconceptions etc. with both short and exhaustive answers. I'm thinking Wiki here, since things continue to be a community process and the huge amount of work can be split up and information can be extended over time. In a Wiki information isn't spread out over multiple posts and false info can be corrected so no one gets to see it.

It can't be that hard to set up a Wiki. The audiocoding Wiki imho isn't compatible enough with the goals of HA, so we need to start a new one. Maybe some individuals here could form a HAWiki expert group and discuss a proper layout and get things started.

I guess this must be something like Dibrom and co. had in in mind for Audio Illumination.

I think that this:

gives it away...

I am sorry, I was probably guilty. But anyway, I originally wanted to use the word noob.
I think I got carried away by the issue (reading too many similar backdated threads), and by the fact that he seemed to retort at every post that quoted him. Yeah, I noticed he didn't seem to like those quote boxes... I wonder why.

Heheh, I guess it isn't a good idea to tell these people straight to their faces that they are newbies. In a sense, I am one too, though I don't think I have flouted HA #8 yet B) .

What's wrong in being called a newbie when you truly are one? (Or maybe for me it doesn't matter). I definitely wasn't imposing my superiority on him, and *some* may agree that he was not open-minded and tolerant enough. Btw, I'm not justifying my actions, just needed to clear things up a little.

Anyway Jebus, indeed, a simple explanation on perceptual transparency would be enough, but don't you think that, on his part, searching the forums for a little while, instead of asking about his question so quickly, would be even simpler, and avoids all the problems that newbies face (eg. vague answers, flames..) ?

Jan has already done this. In fact, the wiki is just about ready to go public I believe, I just haven't had time to fix up a few remaining issues with the server optimization I've been doing.

That sounds like a good idea. I've gotten a lot of good advice reading this forum but am still newbie myself. I could both ask questions there and give the even greener n00bs some advice themselves.

Also, wiki might be a good idea for some of the threads that are in the FAQ. The editing would make it easier to get the real information out.

Ah, fantastic news!

I hope it has the desired effects of concentrating valuable information, make HA more newbie friendly and increase the SNR of the forum even more. Let's all work to make it happen!

Just like to point out something... it may seem like a small difference (15%), but when you're talking over multiple tracks and cds, the differences add up considerably. And hence, ILoveJazzandNewOrleans statement is entirely valid.

Quite honestly, I think we need to be less condescending/confrontational when faced with newbies ( of which I'm probably one myself ) asking similar questions.. There was a time when we were all new, and being patient and not responding to inflammatory statements will go a long way in creating goodwill and educating users.

A newbie forum would be the best...

I have a few problems with this idea.

First of all, I agree with the following:
Also, how will a noob know when it is safe to come to the "advanced" forums?

More over, it will create even more work for the mods, who are already working hard !

The Wiki is a good idea IMO.

Oh, well, if you say so...



I think everyone should try to be patient, even the new members. There is one thing I don't like however: bad attitude, no matter if it comes from moderators or new members.

Also I'm a bit allergic to flawed arguments - and sentences like "size is not an issue" tickles my nose. (well, at least when were talking about compressed files on the computer )


Maybe my problem is to know when to quit...

If you say so.

------------

The guy wanted a single answer and when he didn't get it he blew up and started tossing names. Classic moron who won't accept any conclusion but the one he wants. The newbie forum would be a good idea though. I'd post there.

(I just realized that the recent software change might have triggered the abbundance of 'already discussed topics').

I'm glad that this spawned interest, but... lets' not start a flame war, shall we? The problem is real and it's maybe necessary to replace HA's first page with a page that gives quick access to hot 'topics'. It can even contain (even staticly), links to topics like http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=203 - with a short description underneath.

Anyway, if a wiki is to be posted as front page instead of going direct to the forum section make sure it's a 'closed' type (not everyone being able to register & post info - I'd do that and maybe post some 'gaga' info there .

edit: it seems though that I can't help but doing bad things:

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=11345

I third this idea... (oh wait, I already firsted it...)

One of the things I like about it is the ability to tie together the growing number of "hosted" HA sites as well, and making it easy to find future "hosted" pages. I can think of many advantages to this "front page" idea, and no disadvantages except it would involve some real work to do it properly.

I'm still willing to contribute something (time, money) if it ever happens, because I think it could make HA a much better resource for newcomers to audio compression (and that tendency for people to sign up just because of one single question or problem could be reduced -- imho, that's a big part of what's going on).

I'd like to point out one thing in favour of a newbie forum and not a wiki for new users.

If people aren't going to bother to read existing FAQ / best settings threads, what makes you think that they're going to go through a wiki when its up? That's my opinion...

A newbie forum would probably be a forum that would have guest posting enabled... This would allow most people who simply want to drop in and ask a question to do it without the need to register, and would most probably centralise all the newbies/trolls in one specific place.

On the other hand, a wiki WOULD be a good place to collaborate all the information..

One thing I would say as someone who definitely still a n00b but can do the basics (EAC/LAME/Fb2k etc...), is a front page and wiki would be great. I read faq and the stickies on the mp3 board and learned how to rip cd's. But it was tough because I had to assemble the info from a whole bunch of threads. Only afterwords did I stumble across some step by step guides such as:

http://www.ping.be/satcp/cd2mp3-en.htm
http://www.zeropaid.com/news/articles/auto/10012002d

So 'quick start' guide/wiki page for common tasks like 'tell me how to rip a CD' would be a good idea. I personally like wiki's because its easier to keep them current.

This will of course be an issue. But at least it's a lot easier to read a single well written article with accurate information than to sift through a number of threads where the correct and valuable information is scattered amongst more questions and misinformation. If someone starts a thread: "How about adding -ms to alt-preset standard?" you could just point him to one single article that should answer most of his questions. If he has more questions, these can be discussed and the missing information added to the Wiki article. Valuable threads could be linked right from the article, like it is now done in the FAQ.

I fear such a forum would be spammed with repetitive questions and all the people who could actually answer these questions would just abandon it so you have newbies among other newbies spreading false information. That wouldn't be helping anybody either. Also, who will actually consider himself a newbie? I assume many just think of themselves as expert enough to be participating in the "real" forum anyway and not bother with the idiots in the newbie, beginner, learner, whatever forum.

Damnit, you took those words right out of my mouth. In general, thread-based FAQs contain lots of "side", or off-topic information which might distract and possibly overwhelm a newbie.

Of course, it takes a lot of effort to compile a decent FAQ so having our current thread-based ones are better than none.

As a suggestion, perhaps an intermediate page could be shown when a member clicks on the 'New Topic' button. The page could be something like this:

-----------------------------------------------------------------

<member name>, before you proceed have you done the following things:

1. Check the FAQ <give a link here>

2. Use the search feature <link>


Yes, I have and still cannot find the answer. Now bring me to the actual new post page.

------------------------------------------------------------------

This could be a good reminder tactic. It is already implemented in some sites like the forums at Broadbandreports.com.

I'm ABSOLUTELY THRILLED to hear that a Wiki for HA is finally being put in place! I've been waiting over a year to see HA set up a good system for hosting FAQ's, tutorials, and articles. I just about fell out of my chair when I read Dibrom's post announcing its completion. When it does go online, I'll put in some time to work on its content, grammar, clarity, and organization. Ooh, I can't wait! (w00t) Edit: well, maybe I spoke too soon. Jan S. said almost a month ago that Dibrom just had to fix a couple things in the Wiki to get it online. So here's to hoping we get a Wiki by the end of summer!

On a more sober note, I like shearerkazaa's suggestion of putting a "friendly reminder" screen up for topic-starters, although this could go away after the user has made 50 or so posts.

Yeah, to still be told to use the search function on my 500th post would be patronizing, it would get to the point where it would be an automatic process "click post click continue" in order to post, so the message would go completely ignored