After about 12 hours of burn-in using broad spectrum pink noise (generated with Cool Edit), I'm still getting dismal low bass response from these cans, and mediocre bass response in general.

Tested with various LF sinewaves between 15Hz and 100Hz, and compared against my Denon AH-D550 headphones (no ABXing necessary, the difference is too obvious). Is this normal at this state of burn-in, or can I expect a tinny pair of cans here?

Opinions welcome -- if the situation is the same in 7 days, they go back to the store.

I just got mine yesterday; but immediately noticed the thin bass response. I'm used to my old 580's and thought maybe I expected too much; so hoped a burn in period would allow me to get some decent low end response I could live with. Sounds like I'm going to have to return them, if after a week your still not getting any improvement. Bummer! cadabra3

Don't you mean if *you're* not getting any improvement? (I mean, I assume you're burning in your pair too).

Try generating some pink noise with Cool Edit (Generate/Noise)... I'm using pink noise in "spatial stereo" with an intensity of 12... I just plugged my soundcard temporarily into a boombox to really crank up the volume, maybe that will help. Pink noise should be the best full-spectrum type sound to break in the headphone drivers. Word is that these headphones require at least 48 hrs burn-in, but it's hard to imagine they could improve *that much*.

Thanks, fewtch- for the info and grammar lesson! Let us (or me) know if you get any improvement. I don't remember such an intensive burn-in with the 580's- but different entirely, I guess.
Thanks again- 'the grammarian' cadabra3

I didn't mean to focus on your grammar , just meant that maybe you'll have better luck than I will. Hopefully the bass response will improve -- headphones with a reasonably flat frequency response should have slamming bass when the bass is boosted with a graphic equalizer -- these don't (right now, anyway). If they still don't after awhile, it means the low end frequency response is poor (no excuses from the "most headphones have too much bass" crowd).

Cheers...

Burning-in headphones and speakers is a waste of time. So if your new headphone has weak wass compared to your old one, don't expect that burning-in them will change anything.

Maybe it's the Denon that had too much bass, and you are just used to it.

I thought I addressed this in the last post... these cans aren't responding properly even when bass is artificially boosted using a graphic equalizer. Lower frequency sine waves (~20-25Hz) that are audible on the Denon cans aren't audible at all with the Sennheisers.

Also, I disagree completely about burning in headphones (don't know about speakers, having never tried it). The Grado SR-60's I bought last year sounded horrible out of the box, and quite good after some usage. It makes sense from here that the flexibility and movement characteristics of a diaphragm (moving parts) will change after being used for some time.

At work I have a Sennheiser HD-265. Because I liked it and it was not too expensive, I bought one for home usage.
There never was a difference in sound between the new one and the older.
So at least for this Headphone KikeG is right. And my recent ones did not change their sound either during their lifetime. They werde a Yamaha, don't know the type and a Beyer DT-880.
Fewtch, you might compare your HD-280 to another one in the store where you bought them. Then you'll hear if yours respond as designed by the manufacturer.

For what it's worth (don't know what that is), every site on the web is recommending 48 hrs "burn in" with the HD-280 Pro, including individual users who all noticed a difference.

I can't compare the sound of headphones over the buy.com website. It doesn't matter -- if I'm not happy in a week they go back (good policy on RMA, glad I spent the extra $20 from this place). What I was hoping was to get some feedback from other (long-term) HD280Pro users here to get their impressions.

Did these users conduct an ABX test?

AFAIK, burning in is only required for capacitors (read - amplifiers).

How do you know it wasn't your ears/brain adjusting to the frequency response of your (at the time) new headphones? I'm willing to bet 99% of "running in" claims are just this.

hey, no offense taken. I saw your post over at Head-Fi forum (wish someone had responded); also saw posts recomending 50-60-80 hours burn-in, yikies!
I'll have to try them with my home amp set-up and see what the extra power does for them. There sure are a lot of recomendations for these; could so many people be wrong (no answer needed). Good luck- if you do return them and get a different pair- let us (alright, me) know what you chose? I don't have access to a place to audition headphones- so have to depend on advice from others. later- cadabra3

This analogy may be flawed, but.... Hitler managed to deceive the majority of Germany about the 'Jewish Problem'. Sometimes, the majority may not be true, especially when physics seems to indicate otherwise.
In the end, everything boils down to the fact that the human ear and brain are highly subjective, and have to be thoroughly tested for statistically correct results.
I think the issue can be quite easily resolved with an ABX test of a pair of burned-in cans with a pair straight out of the factory.

Some people call that a "Mac Donald's" argument.

As I had posted on some other thread, I found that adjusting the position of the 280s really changes the sound. For me, moving it forward so that the driver was centred properly with my ear is extremely important. Maybe this means that headphones have "sweet spots" like speakers do, and for the 280s, it's just very narrow.

Also, try taking off the headphones while some music with a decent amount of bass is playing at a normal listening level. I don't know about you, but I can really feel the bass then by just holding them then. The bass is there, it just doesn't seem to get to your ears easily.

I'm quite sure that the HD-280 Pros have this weird bass because of the design philosophy of the headphone: Good sound (not the best, but pretty good) in a closed can that doesn't sound bass-heavy. Most closed cans sound terribly muddled simply because of the nature of closed headphones, so I'm sure that Sennheiser had to do some tweaking to keep this from happening to the 280s. This, of course, changes the entire dynamic of the low-end sound, but I do find that, once I find that sweet spot (for me it's simple: move the headphones forward until the back padding is as far as it can comfortably go), it's all good and quite enjoyable. They're no HD 600s, but what do you expect?

At those frequencies it's possible that what you are hearing are 20 Hz and 25 Hz harmonics, not the pure frequencies, because 20 Hz should be difficult to hear, and at those low frequencies is where headphones and speakers are more nonlinear (distort more, producing more harmonic distortion). On the other side, maybe the HD280 just have less bass extension.

I say that because I've read other people's reports about the HD280 sounding pretty well. Anyway, it they are not the type of sound you like, and you can't or don't want to use some eq to compensate it, there's no reason to keep them.

Easy:

(1) The "breaking in" is done without ever listening (just pumping pink noise), except for an initial listen at the beginning to notice how crappy the headphones sound (yes, it's too obvious for words). In between, listen to the old pair of headphones.

(2) After a certain period of just pumping loud noise or music, one listens again and notices a major improvement in bass, midrange and treble response (again, not in question -- it's too much of an improvement).

Doesn't a pair of new shoes fit and feel different after about 10 or 20 miles of walking? How is that so different than the materials making up a headphone driver?

Sometimes the level of skepticism around here borders on absurdity, equally as much so as the snake-oil claims. It's like the opposite pole of a magnet, which is no more realistic than superstition. Life is somewhere in the middle.

Perhaps so... anyone here have the $$ to buy 2 sets each of several brands? And remember, you can only ABX once with each pair -- better make that 12 sets each of several brands...

Break-in of audio components (especially those with moving parts which change with time) isn't exactly an "extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary proof" in the same respect as long, nonsensical Lame command lines -- afaic there are sound reasons (related to physics) why a vibrating diaphragm and associated moving parts will change characteristics after being used for awhile.

Still, you should burn-in most of the loudspeakers,
because they contain capacitors to split the output between loudspeakers.

Anyway, burning in shouldn't have much impact on the sound.

Yes, mechanical burn-in lasts for a few seconds.

It could be expectation bias, sort of placebo effect. Long-term auditory memory is not very reliable.



Skepticism is good for true knowledge, and science is based on it. Professional speaker experts say that burning-in speakers is absurd, so unless somebody proves to me in a definitive way that burning-in headphones or speakers works, I prefer to trust those experts.

Edit: those experts say that every time you play music on a speaker, it experiments a burn-in that lasts a few seconds. Once the speaker remains quiet for few minutes and you play music again, that burn-in happens again. So, instead of a burn-in, it's some kind of warm-up.

Yes -- however, a small change can make a large difference in sound (perhaps we differ in that opinion -- that's ok). Agreed about volume, but the "long term max input power" according to the manual is 500mW (I'm surely not pumping that much).

Which speaker experts, the ones who write for Stereophile? Maybe the ones that fit your definition of expert, and sound the most logical...

I really think issues like this are a matter of belief and opinion -- the "experts" in nearly every field are quibbling endlessly (and audio is no exception). Theories keep getting "proven" and then "disproven" again a little later. Skepticism is good (especially in light of that), but it can be overdone.

Anyway, this has diverged way off topic... I'm signing off on this thread.

Long term break-in effect depends on the properties of the material,
some change their properties when bent for some time, others don't.

Compare polyetylen (becomes easier to bend) and diamond.

No, the ones that *do* know about speaker engineering and physics, and *do* design speakers for commercial brands. Such as Richard D. Pierce, he's at the rec.audio.* newsgroups.



I think my definition of expert is quite trustworthy.



Nope. Things like these can be totally subjected to objective verification.



That depends on you definition of expert.



Science has taken man to the moon. Audio is quite less challenging.



It depends. A little bit of skepticism is not bad.



OK. I'll keep staying here.

Anyway, fewtch, if you are driving your HD280 with the Audiophile line outs, it's possible that you get weak bass due to the low power reserve of the card line-outs. Try with a proper headphone output and see if the bass remains weak.

As far as positioning of the cans goes, I agree that it makes a big difference. My SR-60s are very forgiving, but even with them, moving them around makes a HUGE change. This is most easily noticed because of the weedy bass response when they're out of place.

As for the burn-in issue, I find the claims of required burn-in for any piece of equipment dubious. Things like capacitors are manufactured to operate within a certain spec (often with very high precision) and all kinds of critical electrical equipment relies on consistant behavior over its whole lifetime. I don't think motherboard manufacturers would be too happy if they had to break in all their caps for several hours before they would operate properly.

One exception here is when the manufacturer explicitly states that break in is necessary and independant information backs it up. For example, I got a dremel for Christmas. They tell you (in the manual) to run it under no load at maximum speed for five minutes before doing anything with it. It contains a universal motor with brushes that need to be broken in. Another example is cast-iron skillets, which must be seasoned (and get continue better over years of use). I would reguard with caution though, claims by a company making $1000 speaker wire that it needs to be broken in.

Headphones DO have moving bits, so it's at least _plausable_ that they undergo some sort of physical change after an initial break-in period. Perhaps (and this is complete speculation) the flexibility of the diaphram changes after being used for a while. If this were the case, the content of the signal shouldn't matter at all, as long as it provides enough movement to cause the change. One could speculate that high-frequencies would do this more quickly.

That's entirely speculation (I do love that word) though. As folks say, "the proof is in the pudding." Actually, that's not right. The plums are in the pudding. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Apparently some folks at head-fi.org HAVE posted graphs showing a change in frequency response after break in. I have not seen them, but if that's true, then it could imply that break-in does something for at least some kinds of headphones. It could also imply that the headphones are gradually wearing out over their liftime. I'd say more testing is required. It's also likely there is better data out there that I haven't seen (I haven't researched the topic in great detail).

Head-fi is littered with quite a few discussions of break-in on the HD-280s, usually revolving around the amout of bass they have. Usually, the break-in period recommended is measured in days. I'd argue that it's more likely that it's the listener that is being broken in. Supposedly the HD-280s are pretty flat in frequency response (again, this is from the head-fi crowd, so keep the salt handy), and most people are used to boosted bass. It could also that they are getting better at placing the drivers over their ear properly.

Some people make some pretty wild claims (patently absurd IMO) that breaking them in with bass improves bass response, breaking it in with "your favorite type of music" improves sound for that type of music, or some particular selection of frequencies or noise is "better". These claims are based on nothing other than that they seem reasonable to the claimant. No science or testing is used to back them up, and we're just assured that "it works great, I can tell." Of course, I doubt anybody is going to buy a few dozen pairs of headphones and try different break in techniques to test these claims.

[edit]Of course, a zillion people have to post while I'm typing up my dissertation. [/edit]

No matter if burning in works or not -
the lack of bass can be caused by the amp offering too low power.
So connected to a certain amp (or soundcard) one pair of headphones can have decent bass reproduction while another hasn't.
So you might want to try both headphones with different amps, maybe take them to a hifi shop and try with a good headphone amp (if you haven't got your new one yet).

Heh, capacitors do have a period of burning in, but it isn't very substantial diference - around 1%.
Don't have the photos of the monitor, though

The best caps (golden strip) have a manufacturing margin of 5%, the worst (no strip) - 20%

In the case of things that are unproven (or can't be conclusively proven), the only thing to do is either keep an open mind, or be fatalistically skeptical. I much prefer the open-minded approach (and I actually feel this is closer to the way a good scientist views things). Open-mindedness != gullibillity (blind faith, superstition), just remaining with the attitude "yes, it's possible" without overblowing the skepticism.

cadabra3 --

I'm returning these headphones... they are so damn tinny and lacking in low-end, they sound to me like the free headphones that come with cheap MP3 players and such. In fact they sound worse -- the treble on the average song from a CD actually hurts my ears.

Just to let you know, since you expressed an interest in what I was planning to do.

Cheers...

It also depends on how far you bend the material. If you always stay below the limit of elastic deformation and fatigue cracking, the mechanical characteristics will not change.

Before this thread is completely derailed, I'd like to say that I'm really surprised to see complaints about low bass problems with HD280. Having used them with various sources, I've never found them to be lacking in bass, on the contrary, they seemed to be more accurate in that department than the "blooming" HD600s and ER-4Ps.

Perhaps we're all conditioned to different sound. Don't return the headphones just yet :)

First, try to exchange them for the same model,
maybe the pair you've got is flaky...

Thanks guys... I just don't want to bother. Already got an RMA number and dropped them off at the post office... I can find better uses for the money.

I'll probably wear these Denon cans into the ground, since I do like them quite a lot (they're just getting old). The 280's had significantly better isolation, but the sound... >_<

Edit -- now that I'm getting a headphone amp, maybe I'll pull the Grado SR-60's down from the closet... with some amplification, they could sound nice even near my PC.

Considering that I own a pair of 280 Pros, and a pair of Ety-4Ps, I can say one thing for certain: You eventually get used to the level of bass that these guys put out. It may not be as fun as some of my cheaper cans, but they are much more precise. You can hear the notes and the separation as opposed to some wobbly mini-earthquake beside your ears. I've also listened to the Ety-4S before, and that's even more neutral than any of the headphones that I have/use, as well as HD-600s (with various cables, I might add--there's the whole dubious community of headphone fanatics who'll try tonnes of different things with their cans). After listening to all of those, I have to say that the HD-280s do quite respectably.

If you're complaining about the sound of the 280s, then I'm really not sure if you'll like the sound from any of the head/earphones that I've already mentioned. For me, the headphone that I use generally depends on the situation that I'm in (quiet environment v. roaring airplane, etc.) and the music that I'm listening to (I definitely feel more comfortable listening to Coltrane or even Diana Krall with 600s than I do say...Nirvana or Nine Inch Nails, although I make a definite exception with Radiohead's last three albums, which are a marvel of haunting and intricate sounds), although genre is not what defines what I use as much as dynamics and intricacy.

Anyway, since fewtch has already returned the 280s, there's not much more justification for the 280s that needs to be said. As for burning in headphones...beyond stretching the diaphragm of the driver and perhaps loosening up the other moving parts, I don't know what else can be "burnt in". I do it anyway, but...I mean, it really is simply a matter of regular use for a few days: I tend to keep headphones for a week, using them as I would regularly use headphones, and if I like them after that week or so, then I keep them. I was terribly disappointed with my 280s (as I've probably said before) when I got them, but grew comfortable with them, for whatever reason--probably because I became better at positioning them properly. I really don't know how much this has to do with burning in though.

I've had a pair of Sennheiser 280's for several months, and the bass is fine on my pair. The sound was a little anemic in the beginning, but I hooked it up to my computer and played it for a week straight without listening to it. The sound did seem to improve a lot.

As far as frequency response goes, I just tested my pair and could hear all the way down to 23Hz.

I'm starting to get the idea that "precision" and "detail" in audio is (more often than not) related to a big frequency hump in the upper midrange/treble end of the spectrum, where hearing itself tends to be more precise. Seriously, I think there's much less difference in headphone drivers than most people suspect (assuming good quality), aside from which portions of the spectrum get emphasized. The rest comes down to issues like isolation (closed phones), build quality, comfort, "brand name panache" and price.

I think you should really investigate some additional amplification before you throw away the 280's fewtch.

I really did do that (hooked them to a boombox that has line-in jacks), and I really have already "thrown away" the 280's. Actually, they're sitting at Mailboxes etc. waiting for the UPS truck to arrive, have you read the other messages in the thread?

It amazes me how difficult it is for some people to believe that I meant what I said when I stated that I think these headphones sound like shit. Perhaps it bears repeating one final time, a little more directly.

Uh, a boombox?
Well clearly you've exhausted all possible options then.
If you think it sounds like shit and your old Denon's are teh win, then go for it.

It sounds to me a lot like your previous headphones had a nice bass-hump going for them, although given the totally objective nature of your hearing relative to that of mere mortals, I hesitate to bring it up.
edit: ROFL! amps, amps, amps! Out of a boombox jack?

Uh huh... you know, basic amplification (ok, with a bit of hiss added, but a big boost in volume nonetheless). Line out from the soundcard to the line ins on the boombox, set the switch to "aux," and headphones go in the jack. Still sounded like a pair of cheap tin cans to me -- like a phono cartridge without RIAA equalization, practically zero bass and not even much midrange. Tons of upper-midrange and treble.

If you can demonstrate that I've done anything but stated my personal opinion/impression on the sound of these headphones, I'll gladly apologize for spreading misinformation. Otherwise, you'll just have to accept that not everyone feels the way you do, nor hears what you hear.

Just pure facts:
Denon AHD550: impedance of 35 Ohms
Sennheiser HD-280 Pro: impedance of 64 Ohms
and maybe you even have the HD-280-13 version: impedance of 300 Ohms

Soundcards usually don't have a headphone amplifier. The headphone outputs on cheap devices like boomboxes, discmans, walkmans and most soundcards are definitely not properly amplified. It's not about the volume. It's about impedance, and therefore -- frequency response achieved (in your case, read "weak bass").

One of the few soundcards out there that has a real headphone amplifier (and a good one; it reveals the nature of the cans sometimes a lot more than you would like to :) is the Echo Indigo (http://www.echoindigo.com). For a pure headphone amplifier, look at the stuff from HeadRoom (http://www.headphone.com/layout.php?topicID=3&subTopicID=27).

In other words: You didn't give your HD-280s a fair chance. You definitely _do_ need a headphone amplifier to get them sound _really_ good. And if you're not willing to buy one, then you're right: HD-280s are not for you. Look for cans with lower impedance.

In my eyes, the (properly powered) HD-280s have much more bass than I would like to.

You are mistaken regarding impedance -- higher impedance devices are generally easier to drive, not more difficult. They impede more current, therefore "require" less current (think of a lightbulb filament with very low impedance, and a very high demand for wattage). 35 ohms vs. 64 ohms is a very small difference anyway.

There are other factors involved (like I/O impedance matching), but I'll report to you honestly that the HD-280 Pro's were plenty loud just connected directly to the output jacks on my Audiophile 24/96, as are the Denon cans. Connected to the aforementioned boombox, they were stratospherically loud at a 50% volume setting. Despite volume (and even a bass boost via equalizer), the sound remained anemic and crappy in my opinion.

You "fanboys" will just have to accept that I didn't like the sound of your baby... it comes down to that, doesn't it? And I couldn't care less what or how many well-paid reviewers have pushed these headphones commercially as the 'second coming'. I don't like the way they sound. It's your prerogative to keep going on, and on, and on about it if it makes you feel better.

Higher impedence=harder to drive.

Portables have almost no problem driving most cans with 100ohm or lower impedences, but if you plug in a 300 or one of the older 600ohm cans, like the hd600 or hd 414 and you might not hear much at all. They need a beefy amp to drive them. Those higher impedences need a higher voltage to run the current through and weak units like portables just don't have the strength for that.

Seems like an acidic attitude, frankly. You're insinuating that the reviewers who reviewed these cans were paid to claim the headphones were to their liking, even though you admit taste is a subjective quantity.

I don't see any verbal assaults or other name-calling, at least not any directed at you ("fanboy"?).


You didn't have to keep responding, did you?

People were making suggestions about what one could do to get them to sound their best, one of which involved using a relatively low impedance higher current dedicated amplifier, which a boombox head-out may not be.

If you dont like the way they sound given the constraints of your gear, again, fine.
Return them, spit on them, evangelize their percieved faults far and wide, whatever.
I said so before, and I just said it again.


You're talking about:
I=E/R , and if we assume a (pretty) constant voltage - the larger R is, the lower I is as a result.
Don't mistake P for I, though , and note that a lightbulb (a pure resistive load basically) produces more light when the resistance increases concomitant with the temperature increase, as the resistance of the filament is a function of the collisions which produce both the light and heat typical of such a system.

But as you noted that's not the whole picture since impedance varies with frequency, and as KikeG so nicely showed
in this thread, the source impedance is of importance to higher impedance headphones.

It would be interesting to compare HD 280s with an anemic high impedence source versus a beefier low impedence source.

The only "breaking in" that's (probably) useful is listening to the headphones for awhile straight, so that you can become accustomed to the response of the new 'phones. You certainly can get very used to headphones with certain frequency emphasies, so that something more flat sounds tinny.

I've heard fair things about the 280 Pro, so I'm going to go ahead & try one out...

He just doesn't seem to like their sound characteristics. An amp isn't going to help much if you don't like their overall personality so to speak. Some people just don't like the way HD280s sound just as I've seen many people not liking HD580s, while I personally enjoy them. BTW IIRC he came from Grados which are quite aggressive sounding while the HD280s are more mellow, so perhaps he was just expecting too much from them.

Denons (doesn't matter tho)...

I guess descriptions like "no bass, all treble," "tinny" and "my ears hurt" convey mellowness to you -- it's all good. Perhaps I *was* expecting too much... I've got to get over this silly trip I'm on and realize that proper headphones have no low end response.

Cheers...

I've read quite a few reviews saying these headphones have too much bass response.

Well, the last pair of Sennheisers I had(HD497), didn't have the best bass response either, I wasn't that impressed with Sennheisers, compared to Aiwa. /me is an Aiwa fanboy. Listen to some other headphones, before you think of what "proper" headphones should sound like.

I see how you can be disappointed in bass response, although I've learned, that low end headphones, don't have more bass, they just sound like someone lowered the treble to nada on the EQ, so when you hear bass and treble, instead of bass and little treble, it creates the illusion of less bass. Or maybe I'm just nuts.

Try keeping them on for a few days straight, don't turn them off, that'll burn them in nice and quick.

If you want slamming bass the MDR-V6/7506 or Beyerdynamic DT770 are probably what you want. Both are closed. I believe 7506 can be bought at Guitar Center for around $99 (don't like them return them for full refund), there's a bunch in the Seattle area (downtown Seattle, Kirkland, Lynnwood). The Beyers can be online for around $180.