Hello

A friend has pointed me to this forum where he heard that quality D/A converters can be purchased for around $100. I am looking at building an audiophile quality system and will need a good DA converter. A friend into this kind of equipment said I will have to spend around $500-600 on the DA converter. If you have a better idea for me let me know :))) Thanks

Hi, and welcome to the forum! Unfortunately, this may not be the best place to have your question answered.

The world seems to be divided into two types of "audiophiles": those that hear all sorts of differences between D/A converters, CD players, preamps, amps, cables, etc., and those who think that most (if not all) of these differences are just being imagined by those that hear them. The people who hear these differences refuse to submit themselves to blind tests because the differences are so obvious, while the other group won't try to hear the differences because it's so obvious to them that the differences can't be there. In other words, there isn't a lot of common ground between them.

On this particular board, the rules are pretty clear that any claim about how something sounds must be backed up by "evidence", which generally means blind testing (i.e. ABX). The audible differences between the D/A converters in reasonably priced sound cards (~$150) and much more expensive stand-alone converters are subtle enough (if they exist at all) that they cannot be measured with blind testing. Therefore if someone tells you that brand X converter for $600 blows away brand Y converter for $150, then they are almost certainly violating the rules of the forum. I am not saying that these kind of discussions don't take place here, but there is always an "underground" kind of feel about them as though the cops are going bust in at any minute.

To answer your question, I would say that there are intelligent, informed people on either side of this debate and you should try out reasonably priced stuff and expensive stuff and see if you hear a difference. Then, whatever you decide, you will at least be assured that you didn't just blindly trust what someone else said.

Sounds like a fun place ) (or any other forum on the net, except maybe the linux forum where everyone thinks Linux is better then microsoft )

Seriously speaking. My budget is limited and my knowledge is non-existent. Can you please point me towards reviews, products, etc. That would be a good start. I don't want the best system on earth, I just want one that sounds good and one that I can affoard. Being in the middle of nowhere in a cornfield listening to several systems is not really an option. (

Thanks

He must have either heard about 100$ PC soundcards having good converters inside, either about second hand converters. The cheapest standalone converter I knew was an Audio Alchemy, and it was more than 200 €.

Considered your budget, I think that buying a standalone converter is a waste. Wether for a soundcard or a CD Player, put your money in a soundcard with good analog outputs (Cinch/RCA), or a good CD Player.

IMO, the only possible common ground is an open-minded/unprejudiced attitude on the part of both sides -- the same method by which atheists and theists can find a common ground of sorts, at the very least agreeing to disagree.

I've tried to keep an open mind and stay on the fence, and have learned quite a bit about audio by reading the constant debates (it's often quite amusing reading, too ).

P.S. I recently attended a Head-Fi.org meeting in my area -- other than myself, attended completely by audio subjectivists (some more obviously purist about it than others). It was certainly fascinating to see and listen to some ridiculously expensive equipment I'll never be buying, as well as some DIY stuff... I took some pics, which can be browsed here:

http://shs82web.home.comcast.net/audio/meet/index.html

But if it's expensive it MUST be good, right?! :) Some links for you, levil:

http://www.stereo-link.com

http://www.stereotimes.com/acc070601.shtm

http://www.msbtech.com/Catalog/Products_Prices.htm

http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/digital/dac1/default.asp

http://www.belcantodesign.com/html/p_dac2.html

$150 of product + $500 of 'warm fuzzy feeling' = one happy retailer + one consumer with a very sore a*s

On the contrary. The consumer, the manufacturer, the retailer and the audiophile magazine the product was pimped in are all happy and satisfied for their own reasons.

My uncle, who plays the guitar, once attended a hifi show in germany, and was playing there.
People all around were discussing gear, cables, etc, so after playing he took the mic and told them "Will you shut up ?? You pretend to sell the finest sound in the world, and you don't even have the decency to be quiet when someone plays music !!!".
Loool



Edit : replaced "shut up" with "will you shut up"

Thanks for the infos. I liked the guitarist story... ) I play my self. It is usually the snobs at expensive banquettes who can't seem to shut up and listen to music when it is there live for them. I bet these people have the most expensive audio gear at home. Most memorable experience was the Paco DeLucia, John McLaughin, Al DiMeola trio's concert where there was a cellphone going off every 30 seconds

Plans to buy are long term, hence I don't have a budget yet. Whatever I buy I really don't want to upgrade or replace though. So I have to get something good. Buying a sound card is not an option. I don't have a computer in the equasion ) I have a good (plays all regions - all CDs, CDRs, CDRWs, etc.) old Nintaus DVD player that I wish to hook up to this DA converter. I will not be hooking up computers... besides that I only have a laptop which has no PCI slots (true about most laptops ) But it does have optical digital out, just in case I change my mind about hooking up the computer

I'll check out the links and get back with more Q Thanks again for the help.

This website's first two issues should be required reading...

http://www.audioperfectionist.com/pages/fr...eejournals.html

You're right Fewtch, it wasn't really fair of me to characterize the board as primarily zealots. A lot of members are pretty open-minded and, as is so often the case, the truth is probably somewhere between the two extremes. However, when some unsuspecting subjectivist wanders into this place they are often chased away by a pack of hungry dogs, never to return.

And so, how did that hi-end gear sound? Did you hear anything that "blew away" what you have at home, or are those nuts totally delusional? Oops!! Never mind, I forgot about rule #8!

atherean: helpful links. one question, though: other than the stereo-link DAC, are the other products pre-configured to skip the soundcard and accept audio from a PC? I only quickly scanned the reviews and couldn't tell. If not, how is that sort of thing typically done?

Here are a couple of more links (perhaps catering more to the "snobby, uninformed subjectivists set"):
Sutherland DAC review
Orpheum

By now, it is clear that these devices are probably out of levil's range (and I just saw that he doesn't even plan to connect his computer). That said, I'd be curious to hear if anyone has had any experience with either.

levil: I assume your DVD player has a built-in DAC; is that not sufficient? Before anyone can offer specific advice about components and price levels, you should probably spend some time on this forum to help identify which components are best to start your upgrade process with (most would say speakers). I can relate to your philosophy of "I want to buy something good once and never upgrade", but trust me if listening to high-quality audio truly becomes a passion of yours, upgrades are inevitable.

In fact, IMHO the best way to go is to upgrade only to the point where YOU hear an easily noticeable improvement in sound (given your budget). In time, what once sounded phenomenal will be taken for granted and your appreciation for subtler aspects of music reproduction will grow. At that point, if you've been bitten by the bug, you will likely constantly be on the look-out for components that can further enhance your listening experience. By then, "easily noticeable improvements in sound" will probably be found in upgraded (not necessarily more expensive) components and you're likely to have a bigger budget.

Best of luck, and welcome to the international club of audio freaks.

I have only a laptop too, and (thanks to people on this forum and some other places as well) I found an outstanding quality PCMCIA Type-II sound card for laptops, the Echo Indigo. It's $129.95, and has clearly better sound quality than the other adapters I've owned (Yamaha AC-XG, some Creative SB models, MX200 and MX 300 [Aureal Vortex II-based] cards). I haven't done blind testing on them (wouldn't know how), but at the very least I'm sure I could pick out the transient-crackles and no-signal-hiss as any of the others (they all did this to varying degrees...drove me nuts) and the transients-with-no-crackle and no-signal-silence and as the Indigo.

The integrated headphone amp is nice and powerful, too. At the same time I bought the Indigo I also got a seperate Xin headphone amp, but it was almost unnecessary since the Indigo card by itself can cleanly drive my Grado headphones or my Sony plugs louder than I'd ever want to listen to them. Even playing a DVD-based movie on my PC, I pipe out the video to my TV but I prefer the Indigo to output the sound directly to my Klipsch speaker system.

Here are some of the stats on the Indigo...
- Greater than 111dB Dynamic Range (A-weighted)
- Better than 0.003% THD+n @ -3dBFS, 1 Vrms output level
- Frequency response of 10Hz – 22kHz, ±0.25dB

For $99.95 more, they'll throw in a pair of Sennheiser HD 280 Pros (which are a-l-m-o-s-t as good as my Grado SR-80s ), and for $29.95 they'll add a copy of InterVideo WinDVD (which I had been using long before I got my Indigo...great program!)

Just thought I'd mention this card as an option since you seemed to be ruling out the laptop as a part of your hi-fi system for lack of a good DAC solution to use with it. My laptop is the center of my hi-fi system, and for the combination of sound quality, features and convenience it sure beats my Sony non-ES component stack any day of the week!

Something to consider...

Edit: Clarifications...

Hmmm... well, I'm not too good at pushing & shoving (it was a very small condo and about 8 or 9 people) so I didn't get in all that much listening. All of it sounded halfway decent, IMHO probably only 5% of it was worth the money it costs (Sennheiser HD580/600's being among the notables, also probably the DIY headphone amps). I was surprised by the Sony MDR-7506 (V6), I really liked that sound + excellent build quality and wouldn't hesitate to buy or recommend a pair to someone at the price they usually sell for. It's obvious how they got their reputation as the classic studio/mastering/dj cans.

The electrostatic headphones were interesting, I'd never heard a pair before (didn't listen long enough to form much of an opinion). It was fun seeing (& listening to) all the toys, and that's what audio meets like that are about to me (maybe meeting a few people too). Unfortunately I didn't do a whole lot of conversing, as I didn't have all that much in common with these dedicated money-spenders... To be fair, everyone really seemed to have their own reasons for being into the hobby -- for example, several who are really big into building their own amps & stuff (that I can always respect), others seemed more into the 'bragging rights' thing, etc.

rsp22: Last time i checked, out of those external DACs only the Stereo-link has a USB digital in.

Echo Indigo looks like a decent affordable option, as well. Without the HD280s. Those can be found for $80 shipped.

Uhm, the Orpheum you mention uses an AC'97 codec in standard dress. As an option, you can get an M-Audio Revolution...