Hello!

I just bought my first audio DVD to play around with it a little. I am the author of BonkEnc, a new CD ripping tool, and I'd love to support audio DVD ripping capabilities in my software.
The DVD (Linkin Park - Reanimation) has an AUDIO_TS folder with three ATS_01_?.AOB files and an ATS_01_0.IFO file. I did some searching the web, but it seems like there doesn't exist any software to decode/extract the audio data and I couldn't find any description of the AOB format.
So does anyone of you know more about DVD audio, how the actual data is encoded and how to extract PCM music from it?

Thanks in advance,
Enzo

Visit the BonkEnc homepage!

I would LOVE for you to come up with a way of ripping DVD audio. There is no solution right now.

DVD-Audio uses a different copy protection scheme. I believe it's called CPPM, and from what I've heard, it's a LOT tougher than CSS.

DVD-Audio can also uses a different compression scheme. It can either use LPCM for 2 channel, or for multi-channel, it must use Meridian Lossless Packing (MLP). To even license a decoder for MLP costs several thousand dollars.

Now because DVD-Audio players aren't as popular as DVD-Video players, most DVD-A discs have a DVD-V portion that isn't as good as the DVD-A, but is still superior to CD, imho. Currently, all methods of extracting ANY audio from a DVD-A exploit the DVD-V feature.

I know it's a cheat of a way to do it, but the simplest solution might be to built a small DVD-A software player into your software, and pipe the audio output from the soundcard. The upside is that the user could select compression/storage settings (such as piping directly to a lossy format, if desired); the downside is that it would not be a bit-accurate representation of the original material. But it just might be enough of a workaround to avoid hassles with the European copyright laws....

- M.

i'm very interesting by an expert response ....
because Dvd-A is a confusing question, i spent many times to understand it .. and didn't success because many questions are not resolbed and many information seems hidden ... post in french ..
http://forum.hardware.fr/forum2.php3?post=...cat=131#t501547

is there any experts able to explain an overview of dvd-A ?


post here in this forum .. http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ST&f=21&t=11159

Some good short introduction
http://www.hifi-writer.com/he/dvdaudio/whatisdvda.htm
http://www.surroundassociates.com/dlvrysys.html
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973...,1163445,00.asp
http://www.dolby.com/trademark/meridian.pdf
http://www.analog.com/Analog_Root/sitePage...3%3D240,00.html
http://www.ambisonic.net/pdf/dvda.pdf

and on others forums ...
http://forum.digital-digest.com/
http://forums.afterdawn.com/forum_view.cfm/90


the fact is for now .. there is some licence restriction to use DVD-A and MLP tracks (meridian) Restriction are applicable for Hifi Dvd reader and all other devices .. but are more restrictive for PC station including .... as software/hardware editor choice :
- desactivate digital output to activate analog ones ..
- restriction on 24/96
licence for protection purpose on Dvd-Audio that explains rules ..
http://www.dtcp.com/data/Compliance_Rules_...udio_020610.pdf

Also found an situation report on Drm including Dv-A Feb-2003
http://www.cenorm.be/isss/DRM/draft_report1_2.pdf

and if i understand .. the audio_ts are LPCM limited quality version included to be read by Dvd Video and Standard Dvd reader ..

can i understand that
- not all Dvd reader are able to read MLP tracks .. it seems right .. as here ... http://www.michaeldvd.com.au/Articles/Articles.asp some include Mlp decoder some none
- windvd / powerdvd / Sonic Cineplayer Surround / etc .. read lpcm tracks and no soft or hardware on Pc are able to read Mlp tracks ??

extract from Cernorm pdf explains that ..
Almost all the 260-odd DVD-A titles released to market to date have carried different versions of the audio to allow playback in DVD-A players and also in video/hometheatre systems. There are two main copy-protection systems within DVD-A, known as CPPM and CPRM.
For pre-recorded DVD-A, the CPPM protection system (Content-Protection for Prerecorded Media) is used to protect the audio. This involves encryption on the disc and key-blocks licensed for use in player devices are needed to play the disc.
As well as encryption on the disc and decryption in players, CPPM permits the
transport of digital content over an approved secure link for out-board processing,
and also the Verance audio watermark, which is applied to original audio. Compliant DVD-A players will not play content on DVD-recordable formats that is marked with the Verance mark, unless the content is encrypted and carried on an original disc or a compliant recordable disc. This system does not exercise control over CD-R copies, and content from any source on CD-R will play on DVD players whether watermarked or not.
DVD-A also provides for recordable media with copy-management to prevent
uncontrolled copying. The copy-management system is known as CPRM (Content-
Protection for Recordable Media). CPRM allows for re-marking of the Verance mark
in the copied audio. CPRM also allows secure export to flash-memory devices, and
for other specified uses such as library copies.



But for LPCM in Audio_ts directory there is some solution like
- rarewaves lpcm24 http://rarewares.hydrogenaudio.org/
- Dts solution http://hypercubemx.free.fr/html/dts_wav_filter.html


but .. i dont' know if they works on cprm/cppm dvd-a aob files ..

PC hardware bottleneck ??
i already saw an article explaining that on PC, actual hardware are a bottleneck when using DVD-Audio because of Dvd reader and Audio card on PCI bus that are unable to support the bandwith that MLP requires with a such quality
.. it will be necessary to have firewire DVD and Audio devie support to satisfy requirements ...

is there somebody to confirm that ...??

here is a pdf doc that contains some MLP information
http://www.meridian-audio.com/w_paper/mlp_..._jap_aes9_1.PDF
MLP DECODER The decoder reverses each encoder process. The decoder is relatively low complexity. A decoder for a 2-channel player (capable of extracting a 2-channel stream at 192kHz) requires approximately 27MIPs, while 40MIPs will be required to decode 6 channels at 96kHz .

It seems that 6/10 Mbits are the requirement ... so PCI is bottleneck ..

As we just see some chipset like "soundstorm nvidia", C-Media, Cirrus Logic etc.. able to support a realtime decode of dolby signal (only on chipset integrated on motherboard) is it possible to hope for a future mlp decoder ??

SO .. i just found that .it is possible ...
- http://www.cirrus.com/en/products/pro/detail/P45.html
but never see a future plan to a audio card (internal or external) including such .. like Creative extigy that have an dolby dsp chipset ..
- http://www.lsilogic.com/products/consumer/dvd/
- Vadis http://www.interactual.com/news/Zoran111500.htm
- Ziva http://www.cdmediaworld.com/hardware/cdrom..._dvd_chip.shtml
- STMicroelectronics http://us.st.com/stonline/press/news/year2...r2002/p937p.htm

Another solutions will be to produce a special DVD reader for PC including specific asic and chipset for MLP support (as for Ziva) .. ?? I don't see this concept anywhere


some other information ////
- 100 Mips Processor to decode MLP .. http://www.meridian-audio.com/w_paper/mlp_..._jap_aes9_1.PDF
- http://www.lsilogic.com/techlib/marketing_...er/ziva5_ds.pdf

as you can see on schema, there is an Asic component for Cppm protection ...and a specific Dsp for the Dvd-Audio .. to output as specified by licence compliance

Wow... that's a lot of information, but I think you have a few details wrong. It's hard to tell, because it's clear that English is not your native language. I'm no expert but there are a few misconceptions you have.

I don't think any normal DVD-Video player can read whatever is in the audio_ts directory. LPCM is a specified probably as an alternative to use of MLP (so that people producing DVD-A's don't have to pay for an MLP encoding license).

Has anyone tested whether or not DVD-Video players read the audio_ts information?


For a DVD-reader to be considered a DVD-A player, it MUST be able to decode MLP audio.

Incorrect. Supposedly there is software available for the Audigy 2 that allows playback of MLP tracks.

Also, WinDVD/PowerDVD/etc. can read lpcm tracks, I believe it can only read them from the video_ts directory.

No, they don't. All they operate on is the audio stream, which is multiplexed into the aob/vob files. In the rarewares lpcm24 software, it tells you how to extract that stream from a DVD-video, but not a DVD-audio.

You would have to link the article, but otherwise that statement is bullshit. It is true that with data interaction on the modern PC, the slowest component is the PCI Bus. However that DOES NOT mean that PCI bus is too slow for DVD-Audio.

Even MORE bullshit. PCI bus operates at 33MHz. If it could only transmit 1 bit per second, it would STILL be 33Mbps. The PCI bus is 32 bits wide, which allows for more than just 33Mbps. Think about it. What would the point of having a 100Mbps PCI ethernet card be if the PCI bus couldn't exceed 10Mbps?

Probably not, but you never know. Incidentally, there are MANY PCI audio cards that were capable of decoding Dolby Digital.

It MIGHT be possible to see a DVD-Audio decoder card, similar to the hardware DVD-Video cards (like the Hollywood Plus+ card). I doubt it though, seeing as it would be expensive and probably wouldn't sell very well.

Sorry for the really long post, but there a lot of points that needed to be addressed

thanks much for time spent to respond to my mistakes ..

1) audio_ts directory - ok you're right - in fact Dvd player (not dvd-a) don't access to audio_ts directory ... confirmation here ..
http://www.hifi-writer.com/he/dvdaudio/whatisdvda.htm
http://www.analog.com/Analog_Root/sitePage...el3=240,00.html
But, it seems that some Dvd-A Disks include in "video_ts" directory some extra information or/and a dvd_v compatible version of the audio_ts content
Is there somebody to confirm that fact?


2°) Ok - Dvd-a player label means Mlp decoder chipset
but i was talking about general dvd reader "Dvd reader" are able to read MLP tracks .. so there are not Dvd-A .. as you can see on this specifications sheet ..
http://www.michaeldvd.com.au/Articles/Articles.asp

3°) yes i forget it ... "dvd-a player" .. Creative's DVD-A player can't play its video part, and graphics and text records weren't shown. We could see it only on the Pioneer 757Ai DVD-A/SACD player. http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/creati...y2-platinum-ex/
but this player desactivate the digital output .... "For example the DVD Audio specification (not DVD Video) requires that data (music) can not be output in digital form. Therefore with a digital connection you will get no signal out which means there will not be any sound output."
http://dmzweb4.europe.creative.com/SRVS/CG...creative_cli_en


4°) OK i already read the readme.txt of lpcm24 in fact and thought that .. but you give me confirmation . Is this linked to the cppm protection? or Lpcm are unable to read the aob file?


5° ) Pc botlleneck . Yes - as we think about for example IDE disk, actual Ata100 & Ata133 use with the recent disks 100Mbits stream and some articles and tests say that they use the max bandwith for Pci bus ..
So 10Mbits is not a problem .. you are right ..


6° Dolby decoding ..


Wich Audio Pci card are able to "hardware" decode dolby?
Dolby with software, yes, in many package cards .. but hardware decode? .. the only ones i saw are audio chipset incorporated on motherboard

Here is the list of real-time dolby stream decode/encode chipset i found ..
- Envy 24ht ..with VT1616 chipset http://www.viaarena.com/?PageID=178
- Cirrus .. MPEG-2 A/V Encoders / CODECs : CS92288 http://www.cirrus.com/en/products/pro/detail/P951.html
- C-Media ... http://www.cmedia.com.tw/product/CMI9761.htm
- Zapex ZP-100 AC-3 5-Channel Surround Encoder .. stopped ?
- list of Dolby partners .. http://www.dolby.com/digital/lcddpem.html


°°) about inboard Mlp decode chipset on motherboard or audio card ..
Yes probably not a good market opportunity ..
Music industry don't want Pc propagation of HQ Digital music, and licence are restrictive .. maybe with future Drm bios and hardware support ..

thanks much one more time .. you fix some of my mistakes ..

Thank you very much for your answers!

So to convert DVD-A to PCM audio one would need to break the CPPM encryption and find a way to decode MLP (unless it's encoded in LPCM, but you'd still have to break the CPPM then), right?

I've also heard that there's a DVD-A plugin available for WinDVD. I think it should be possible to exploit that plugin to use it in other software. What about that alternative?

The easiest way would probably be to extract the data from the video_ts folder that is present on most DVD-As for compatibility, but you wouldn't get the same quality as from the audio_ts data.

Another problem is that adding my own CPPM/MLP decoder to BonkEnc would definitely make my program illegal in most countries.

Dvd-A player which support MLP & Lpcm (no problem)
- Intervideo does - i test no problem .. but i don't know exactly restrictions on digital output .. but navigation is possible (video image) DTS also .
- creative dvd-a player does but restrictions on quality output and disable digital output and no navigation and no Dts ..
- powerdvd .. it seems no Mlp support .. but no sure .. dolby seems saying yes in an market announcment .. a forum post her and soundforge site say no . powerdvd say nothing .. but powerdvd support of Lpcm 24/96 yes .. the lack will be the Mlp licence .. is ther nobody to confirm? But Dts and Dolby support ...


To produce a dvd disk compatible with dvd-v and dvd-a or dvd-universal players, it is necessary to use specific dvd-a authoring tools that manage video_ts directory to be compliant with dvd-a specifications ..
Sadie, Cube-Tec, Sonic Dvd-A authoring and Discweleder/surcode are clear about that point ..


found these http://www.sonic.com/pdf/wp_dvd_audio.pdf explains
- why dvd-a format and difference
- compatibilities with different dvd players
and some clear and good explanations

for more explanation on Mlp coding process .. http://www.meridian-audio.com/mlp/MLPEncoderUser.pdf or different Authoring Software manual


About Dvd-A protection .. what i've see and understand is ..
- authoring tools incorporate "Digital copy protection with CPPM"
- Dvd-A Player have an Asic Cppm and a Dsp which seems to manage protection and convert to analog signal
- there is a licence for using Dvd-a format and software players restrict usage like creative
- what i understant is there is two protection :
-- a watermark including in files lpcm or plm
-- implementation protection when recognize dvd-a support manage by software (creative) and by dvd-A player with asic chipset

in fact dvd player not dvd-a are unable to read audio_ts tracks ... so the protection is implicite ..

i'm right ??
so ...

1) be able to read the lpcm/mlp - aob files ?? in "audio_ts"
2) be able to bypass wich protection ?? watermark? is the aob coded? i don't know
3 convert keeping the same quality

Yes, you still would have to break CPPM.

As for the plugin, you'd still have have to pay for it (or the user would have to pay for it). Chances also are, it will be a royal nightmare to break into.

Exactly. Although if you're worried about adding your own CPPM/MLP decoder for legal reasons, then you shouldn't even try to extract audio from DVDs. To do so involves circumvention of copyright protection (i.e. breaking of CSS), and that is just as illegal as CPPM/MLP decryption.

I will confirm it. This is how I extracted the LPCM audio from my one DVD-A disc. This is also how I could play it back in PowerDVD.

Those are all DVD-V players. Some of them have DVD-A capabilities, hence the MLP audio. But if they want to use the DVD-Audio logo (example from your link), then they MUST have MLP decoding.

This is linked hand in hand. Lpcm24 does not read the aob file at all. No one knows how to read the aob file, because no one has been able to decrypt CPPM.

There aren't nearly as many sound cards as I thought. The Terratec Sky and Space use the Via Envy 24HT, as does the M-Audio Revolution, I think. It's hard to find which sound cards use which audio processor.

this is comple bulkl
FW = 400mbits/50mbytes
FW2 = 800mbits = 100mbytes
pci 32/33 = 1gbits = 133mbytes


firewire has LESS bandwidth then PCI 32/33

Thanks much sthayashi

As the topic of "audio chipset" becomes more and more important, it must be interesting to make a specific post. Are you intersting to help me and contribute because my bad english?
- Identification of Dac & chipset available and capabilites
- manufacturer card and motherboard implementation
- links for article, review and test ..
- software implementation .. i saw that in windvd, external decoding option are available .. as an example


This post is very interesting for me and i have done a great step forward to a better understanding on dvd-a topic

some newbies questions ....
1- AOB files include LPCM OR/AND MLP content?
OR AOB is always MLP content AND LPCM are in Video_ts files ..?

2- how two layers are used on Dvd-Audio? (for hybrid one?)
this announcement .. http://www.audiorevolution.com/news/0903/03.wea.shtml
in fact Dvd-A was previously thought to be hybrid as Sacd

DVD-A DVD-Audio discs can be any DVD physical format, ie DVD-5, DVD-9 or DVD-10. In addition the DVD Forum has approved a hybrid DVD-Audio format (Figure 6) to include a CD layer which will play on CD players.ia a DVD-9: 8.5 GB (Dual Layer Single Side) - Links :
http://www.discusa.com/downloads/tech_docs...ntroduction.pdf
http://www.disctronics.co.uk/downloads/tec...cs/dvdaudio.pdf
& http://www.disctronics.co.uk/technology/ma...f/rep_intro.htm

3- Backup of Dvd-A? As softwares are able to burn a duplication of a Dvd-5/9/10 media and that Cppm and watermark protection on dvd-a aren't physical .. Dvd-A are easy to backup on an Dvd-R. Is it correct? (i haven't test now ..)




Authorting tools list .. for DVD-A (i found )
It seems that all Authoring products include the MLP ENcoder from Meridian This (Sadie, Sonic Solutions, Minnetonka)
- MLP Encoder alone licence = 2500$ (ouch ..)
http://www.meridian-audio.com/p_mlpenc.htm
http://www.meridian-audio.com/mlp/MLPEncoderUser.pdf
They have an excel DVD-Audio project calculator !!
- MLP Decoder is licensed by DOLBY .. http://www.dolby.com/trademark/

Authoring Solutions
(t seems that the Mlp Encoder is included as an external batch processing task and that Mlp Encoder is sold as an extra product as distributors of Meridian)
All these products don't support graphic navigation authoring or/and Dvd-Video compatible support

- Sadie - http://www.sadie.com/products/DVDaudio_paper.html Mlp encoder is an option and and external task

- Sonic Dvd-A Creator http://www.sonic.com/products/dac/default.htm
DVD-Audio Creator is available as a stand-alone configuration, or as part of the DVD-Audio Creator workgroup which includes all the hardware and software necessary for every aspect of DVD-Audio production.
Need Sonic Scenarist, DVD Creator or DVD Fusion to prepare Dvd-V compatible content. Of course Mlp Encoder is a supplement (MLP Encoding (HD-710)) probably 2500$
The configuration is based on an capabilities matrix here http://www.sonicstudio.com/config.htm#dvdaudio

- Discweleder/surcode - http://www.minnetonkaaudio.com/products/products.html
--- Surcode MLP - http://www.surcode.com/low/mlp/mlp.htm -
http://www.minnetonkaaudio.com/PDFs/MLP_Manual.pdf - The MLP Encoder plus a light frontend .. it seems
--- SurCode MLP discWelder CHROME Bundle = MLP ENcoder + Authoring Software Discwelder = 4490$
--- Authoring tools are discWelder STEEL (low cost !! 495$) & discWelder CHROME (2500$)

- Cube-Tec - CubeDVD-A - http://www.cube-tec.com/CubeDVD.html
This is professional PC based station and MLP encoder acquired as an option (Meridian distributor ..) Dell D530 based system includes dual 2.2 GHz Xeon processors, the Merging Technologies Mykerinos DSP board with 24 channels of AES I/O; Combo DVD+RW / CD-RW Burner; 36GB Audio Drive; and the Cube I/O-24 interface module. The system is configured to support stereo and multi-channel mastering, restoration, DVD-A authoring and DSD / SACD Mastering.
This product seems able to import MLP file ..



CPPM ...
and others links i already post ..
http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#1.12
4) Content Protection for Prerecorded Media (CPPM)
CPPM is used only for DVD-Audio. It was developed as an improvement on CSS. Keys are stored in the lead-in area, but unlike CSS no title keys are placed in the sector headers. Each volume has a 56-bit album identifier, similar to a CSS disc key, stored in the control area. Each disc contains a media key block, stored in a file in the clear on the disc. The media key block data is logically ordered in rows and columns that are used during the authentication process to generate a decryption key from a specific set of player keys (device keys). As with CSS, the media key block can be updated to revoke the use of compromised player keys. If the device key is revoked, the media key block processing step will result in an invalid key value. The authentication mechanism is the same as for CSS, so no changes are required to existing drives. A disc may contain both CSS and CPPM content if it is a hybrid DVD-Video/DVD-Audio disc.

I can't tell you how to rip DVD-audio, but there are these options to get something from the disc:

DVD-V section (if included): rip the Dolby 5.1 part, rip the LPCM 2.0 (or whatever) part, record the digital output from your player (if present)

DVD-A section: record the digital output from your player (stereo, if allowed), record the analogue output from your player using a high quality 6-channel sound card (this one will always work!).

This assumes you have a DVD-V or DVD-A player! The analogue method loses quality, but will get you all 6-channels without lossy coding.


Be aware that the watermarking is likely to mean that some analogue recordings of the DVD-A output may not play on future players of various formats.

Remember that both DVD-V (video_ts) and DVD-A (audio_ts) sections can contain any content the disc manufacturer chooses. The maximum data rate on DVD-V isn't enough data rate to allow 6-channel 24/96 (that's why DVD-A uses MLP), but there is nearly enough - e.g. you can fit LPCM surround content on DVD-V if the are surrounds only at 16/48, or only 4 channels are used etc.

DVD-V players can't access the audio_ts directory. DVD-A players default to using the audio_ts directly, but some can access the video_ts directory too.

The DVD-A section of the disc (audio_ts) can contain video! If this video is not duplicated in the video_ts section, then a DVD-V player cannot play this video!

Cheers,
David.

(I'm currently listening to Swing Live, by Bucky Pizzarelli - a David Chesky 2/4/6 DVD-A disc. I'm listening to the 24/96 2-channel mix on a DVD-video player. It's excellent. The disc is available from http://www.amazon.co.uk or http://www.chesky.com .)

To be honest, I never thought that the audio chipset/processor was all that important. As I've come to realize, hardware dolby digital encoding is not all that important for a sound card. That's because most computers that run faster than 600MHz can handle the decode in software with no problem whatsoever (slower computers can probably do the software decode with no problem either).

I also think that trying to find information on many popular sound cards' DACs and Processing Units will amount to a really big headache.

AOB files may include both LPCM and/or MLP content. There is no reason to NOT use MLP, unless one cannot afford an MLP encoder license.

You're going to have to be a bit more specific with that question, especially since it seems like the answers lie in the links that followed.


It's been discussed before that digital out is be disabled in order to playback DVD-Audio. That's the rules set forth by the DVD Consortium I believe.

This is misleadingly true. The maximum data rate specified by DVD-V does not allow for 6-channel 24-bit/96KHz LPCM, but neither does DVD-A. However, that's why we have lossy encoders like Dolby Digital and DTS, which compress the signal enough to come in under the data rate limitation.

I submit my one DVD-Audio as proof.

thanks .. I Think dvd-a is an consumer abuse because of restrictions and unexplicit information about limitation ... it's a part of reason i was intersting to understand exactly


>> 2bDecided ...
some internet site pages show how to connect the output of dvd-a/v with schema and photo .. right .. it's sure that the quality is enough ..

*sorry to not participated on abc-hr test .. doesn't work on my pc, others pc have dirty speakers ..



>> sthayashi


First ....
AS i found information that Dv-A use 2 Layers One face format of Dvd support .... I am curious to understand why because i don't see the usage of the two layers actually .. as Dvd-a aren(t able to be used by CD Players and Dvd-V player read on video_ts dir but on same layer than audio-ts dir for Dvd-A players ...

Second .. ..
I also read two different sites like this http://www.disctronics.co.uk/technology/ma...f/rep_intro.htm explaining that Dvd-A was in a rude competittion with Sacd ..
i thought that maybe second layer be used for a Cd usage ..

Third ...
i found information about possible Wea dual Disc .. an other lilnk about .. http://www.kurthanson.com/archive/news/091...91803/index.asp
and other information that the first was a rumour
http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/new...number=16826367
addendum .. searching for "dvd-a hybrid" show many discussions about
- i read also Sacd II annouced in september .. http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/new...number=19363192


Questions ..
1°) what is the usage of two layers on dvd-a
2°) what do you think about rumour
3°) many information and perhaps some major changes in market, what do you think about that ?


Addendum ..
it is possible to consider that cpu ressource are enough for audio tasks and this is exactly why graphic card hadn't processor before recent generation ..
but the fact is that regarding consumer requirement and market actors (firms .. distributors ..) it will be certain that we are coming to age for a dedicated sound processor .. i'm sure of that .. probably market competition will be on
- motherboard embeded .. or not for basic tasks
- "market driven" functionality .. like Dolby, Eax, etc ...

It's really easy to find makor chipset on consumer card but not so .. to identify other importan components like dac .. and to obtain exact features ..

Hi .. i request one more time contribution from your knowledge and patience ..

there are few confused points ... i would like to fix ..

1) Aob files in audio_ts con contain
- a lpcm format
- a Mlp format ..

but what about DTS ... and DOlby . .
Is DTS/Dolby in Mlp format ?
Is possible to have Dts/dolby in Lpcm format?
or are they aob files with specific format différent from mlp /lpcm ones?
or Dolby is in Aob/mlp format so what about DTS?

2) last question is a part of the response ..
it's saying here that nobody as successfull access to aob files .. exact?
or aob files are accessible? .. but mlp format is not ..
Cppm is codified in aob or in mlp? for me cppm is implemented in mlp encoding .. but maybe in producing aob file ?

3) i saw that it is possible to put Dsd format in aob file .. is it correct?

4) .. lpcm ..
do you confirm that lpcm are always in aob files .. in audio_ts directory ...

and Is it possible to find vob/ac3/dts files in voideo_ts directory?


the only dvd-a i have have only aob file ..

thanks much one more time .. one more time ..

No, No, and No. Dolby and DTS are lossy encoding formats which are sometimes used in DVD-Video only. They are never used in DVD-Audio. If a DVD-Audio disc has Dolby or DTS on it, it is only for compatibility with DVD-Video (i.e. you can play that disc in a DVD-Video player).

This, I don't know. I don't know of any CPPM decoders, but I also don't know of any AOB parsers either. If I were to guess, CPPM is an encryption applied AFTER the AOB is written, not before.

I have no idea.

No, that is NOT true. A DVD-Audio is not obligated to have LPCM in it's audio_ts directory. It may use MLP only, and that would be allowed.

You will only see vob files in the video_ts directory, because the ac3/dts files are embedded in the vob files.

1) Typically, I believe the two layers on a dvd-a are used just like any other DVD. I thought that it was transparent to the software. However, this is just a wild guess because I am not an expert on this.
2) Never heard of that rumor before, but it sounds a short sighted attempt to jumpstart the surprisingly unpopular DVD-A format.
3)Sorry to say, your English here is too poor for me to understand the question.

Yes - I've read it plenty of times. But is the digital output switched off for all DVD-A discs, or only on some discs that require it? Actually, I don't know why I'm asking - I can go home and check for myself!



Yes - the maximum data rate is the same, DVD-V or DVD-A. But obviously MLP is a lossless way of fitting within this limit, yet giving a (losslessly packed) linear PCM 24-bit 96kHz 6-channel product.




nwn,

Looking at them, the DVD-A discs I haven't don't look like they're dual layer.



Another interesting feature is that, even in DVD-A mode, my DVD-A player can apparently access some of the DVD-V content. There are (usually) on-screen menus which give access to the DVD-A content, but pressing the group button seems to switch to the DVD-V audio content. (either that, or else it's been needlessly duplicated in the audio_ts folder. This is possible but unlikely.)

e.g. on the Chesky disc, I can find two identical 2-channel 24/96 mixes on two different groups - I assume one is in video_ts, one in audio_ts. On the Elvis disc, using DVD-A mode, I can still find the Dolby AC-3 material (in two groups), even though there are superior 24/96 stereo and 6-channel versions in the other groups!

My DVD-A machine can also be switched to DVD-V mode, to simulate a DVD-V player completely, and run the video_ts material, igorning the audio_ts content. I've compared with a normal DVD-V player, and the simulation is perfect.

Cheers,
David.

I believe it's switched off for all DVD-A content (rather audio_ts content), though I have no way to confirm this. Question? How are you going to find out if digital output is turned off? Assuming it outputs in MLP format, no external hardware MLP decoders exist yet.

Pendantic note: DVD-V actually has a smaller max data rate for audio than DVD-A.
Anyways, the point was that DVD-V DOES allow 6-channel 24/96, just not losslessly. That said, I wonder how many people can ABX MLP from Dolby or DTS (analog streamed)?

Also, supposedly because Dolby and DTS can be transmitted digitally, a proper receiver can alter the levels appropriately for your personal sound system (assuming you've set them). Because of this, Dolby/DTS can end up sounding better than MLP because it's mixed properly for your setup

I'm quite confident that I heard compression artifacts in some AC3 tracks. But since I don't have an original to compare with, I can't blind test. I can post samples, though...

I think the hard part (and intentionally to) is cracking CPPM. MLP I am guessing would be easy in comparison - there must be datasheets on on its spec, or even ISO standards.

It is ashame that the crack for DSS came just a month or two early, otherwise DVD-A would have CSS protection.

There is a possibility that original sound has been compressed lossy at some point before even geting into sound mastering (in theory). At least i've heard lots of CD's where some tracks sound like there have been compressed with 96kbps MP3 or something at some point, or some of the used instrument samples at least.

There was some proggy that I used to take the audio output of, say, drum samples, and pipe them into a recording proggy. Virtual Pipe or something like that. Sounds like something you guys are talking about.

I think you're talking about NTONYX VirtualAudioCable. I've thought about this possibility too. Probably it won't work because these software players that are able to play back high resolution DVD-A through soundcards seem to work only with certain soundcards, so they recognize the soundcard somehow. This would mean we would need some kind of sophisticated virtual soundcard comparable to virtual CD drives that can be used for playing copyprotected games without need for physical CD drive running al the time....

Stupid me ! I've got the soundtrack on audio CD
Even if the master is not the same, I'll be able to compare the artifacts.

I was going to play back a 24/96 stereo mix from the DVD-A section, and try to record it using my audiophile 2496. You can't send 6-channel 2496 via SPDIF, and I wouldn't expect a DVD-A player to send MLP, but to decode it first. However, you're probably right - no harm trying though!



The "official" listening tests (published in the AES journal? I've lost the reference) of AC-3 found it far from transparent, though I'm sure it's been improved since then. I agree with Pio2001 that some AC-3 content sounds awful, but also agree that it's probably transcoded. I had a legal version of the Sonic Foundry SoftEncode AC-3 encoder, and 5.1 at 448kbps (?) was usually transparent. 2-channel at 192kbps wasn't.



True, but why shouldn't a DVD-A player do the same thing before D>A conversion? Mine appears to have a menu for this, but I haven't played with it.

For audio, I think you should have 5 or 6 identical speakers, equidistant from the listener. Then you can forget about settings levels and delays.

But I take your point - the current reality is that most surround amps don't handle the 6 analogue channels from DVD-A correctly, if at all! AC-3 or DTS could easily sound better in this case.


I object, in principle, to having a lossy source. At that price, it should be the best they can do, whether I can hear the difference or not! Plus I'd rather make mp3s from the LPCM>analoge output than a digital downmix from the AC-3 digital output. Of course I'd rather have LPCM without copy protection...

Cheers,
David.


Cheers,
David.

Guys, guys .... guys

1) DVD-a is far superior to AC3 and DTS due to its bandwith, and because of it's dynamic range due to the higher resolution.

2) DVD-a max resolution is 24 bit at 192 KHz in 6 channels

3) DVD-a max bandwith i 2.8Gbit (yes Gigabit!)

4) There is no consumer equipment in exsistence that will do DVD-a on a digital link.

5) Denon is as far as i know, the only manufactur that has a 2.8Gbit digital link, called denon-link, and it doesn't do DVD-a

6) Tosslink/SPDIF max bandwith is approx. 10 Mbit. I dont remeber if it is 16 or 24 bit, but it is definately 96Khz.

7) and because of 6), digital out is disabled when playing advanced resolution DVD-audio.

Best regards
- Hembo

WTF?!?! Where did you get this data from? Most of the sites I've seen state that:
1) DVD-A has a max resolution of 24 bits @ 192KHz for 2 channels, or 24 Bits @ 96KHz for 6 channels.
2) DVD-A Max bandwidth is 9.6Mbps
3) DVD Drives read at about 11Mbps, so there's no possible way that a DVD-A could be 2.8Gbits. (Maybe you where thinking of DSD, which samples at 2.8MHz?)

Specs I've read say 24/196*2 and 24/96*6 also.

Digital out can be present but it is down sampled to something like 16/48*2 but full bit rate *IS* allowed as long as the medium is encrypted. The new audio digital link standard is based on Firewire and does encryption and full res DVDA.

At least two new AV Amps have this connection now (Yamaha and Pioneer) and a few DVDA players too (like the Pioneer DV868AVi I have on pre-order).

But yeah I don't think this link will be any easier to crack then the actual disc so I'm planing on using the analogue out for 2 channel 24/96 via a Revo card.

Gentlemen

I stand somewhat corrected, I was mixing things up and got carried away.

So I had to refresh my memory from:

DVD Technical Guide - Chapter 5: Audio Format





I apologize.

Sincerely yours
- Hembo

> I would LOVE for you to come up with a way of ripping DVD audio.
> There is no solution right now.


There is a way to rip DVD-Audios AND SACDs now :-).

A swiss company developed a multichannel highresolution S/P-DIF output board for DVD-Audio/SACD players.
The DSD 1 Bit 2.8224 MHz signal of the SACD is converted to PCM 24 Bit 88.2 kHz.
The PCM on the DVD-Audio is output at its original resolution, up to 24 Bit 192 kHz.
Since the output board gets the signal from the inputs of the builtin DACs you can also use the surround decoder and have the DECODED DTS and AC3 one the outputs of this output board.

http://www.dvdupgrades.info/digital_audio.html

Very interesting. I think there could be problems with new copyright laws in many countries, as it can be regarded as technology for circumvention of copy protections. Of course, one could argue that it's purpose is to increase playback quality by making the use of high quality external DACs possible, and using it to extract e.g. audio from protected DVD-As 1:1 is abuse.

Schalti, do you happen to work for this 'swiss company"?

HOW MUCH?!?!?

That's £750 or $1300!!!!!


I was thinking that such a device probably counts as a "hack" rather than an "upgrade", and is illegal in the same way that a Macrovision stripper box is illegal.

But at that price the target audience must be audiophiles rather than hackers/pirates/whatever!

Cheers,
David.

@tigre
> Schalti, do you happen to work for this 'swiss company"?

No. But I know the developer of the addon board. A brillant engineer who has been working for Revox and Studer till the early 90's.
The primary purpose of the board is to make it possible to attach external DACs or even better digital active loudspeakers. The developer of the addon board normally develops digital active loudspeakers (his own brand and for Revox). But the many delays and discussions on the topic of high resolution outputs and the fact that the only way of having high resolution digital signals out of your DVD-Audio/SACD player turns out to be the oncoming HDMI interface made it necessary to develop this output board.
HDMI comes much too late, and even worse is EXTREMELY expensive, as a manufacturer you pay 30'000 USD ANNUAL license fees (15'000 USD for HDMI and 15'000 USD for the HDCP encryption), which is completely ridiculous and unaffordable for small companies. Simply another way to eliminate small companies.

For the copyright laws we know that there could be problems in some countries but the extraction as you say is an abuse since the primary purpose is to attach external DACs or digital active loudspeakers to increase playback quality.

Since both financially and in terms of time it takes a lot more to extract the data I don't think it will ever be a problem as huge as the grabbing of CDs.

@2Bdecided

I know the price for the unit is not cheap, but of course there has been a huge amount of development. The target audience clearly is more the audiophile.
But I'm sure there will be also other customers.

Hoax?

* There seems to be no obvious way to connect board to the player.

* There is no list of supported players - it magically works with *any* player?

* The two big chips are so secret, that it was neccesary to cover the text on them with a black area in photoshop.

* It decodes AC3 and DTS (which is possible). But it makes little sense unless the decoder know the speaker configuration. It has to know distance from listening position, configuration, size, placement etc.

> Hoax?

Definitely not, the board has been presented at the 'Advance 03' HighEnd Show in Switzerland. I've seen it there and listened to both DVD-Audio and SACD with Tact RCS 2.2 room correction and Speak RS Campana 3S digital active loudspeakers.
The best stereo performance I have ever heard.

> * There seems to be no obvious way to connect board to the player.

There are several wires, some to the Sony DSD-Chip, some to the input of the player's onboard-DACs.

> * There is no list of supported players - it magically works with *any* player?

It only depends on the DACs in your player. Currently Crystal and Burr-Brown work fine, but others will be implemented. Two development players I know for sure have been Pioneer 747 and 656.

> * The two big chips are so secret, that it was neccesary to cover the text on
> them with a black area in photoshop.

One is a FPGA (Xilinix or Actel I think) and the other one is an AKM multichannel transceiver.

> * It decodes AC3 and DTS (which is possible).

No, it doesn't. But since it will grab the PCM data just before the players builtin DACs there is of course the decoded DTS and AC3 signal.

Call me Mr. skeptic, but this sounds like a step up from simply recording the output. You're limited to 1.0x extraction and it's a PITA to setup.

Also IIRC, S/PDIF can't handle full uncompressed 6-channel audio (at least not at 96kHz), or does this product just handle stereo?

> Call me Mr. skeptic, but this sounds like a step up from simply recording the
> output. You're limited to 1.0x extraction and it's a PITA to setup.

That's right, you are limited to 1.0x extraction, but it's not really difficult to setup.
There are PCI-boards with 24 Bit 192 kHz inputs, for example from EGO-SYS (http://www.esi-pro.com) (Waveterminal 192X with MI/ODI/O addon board).
At least there is a possibility now, I doubt that there will ever be a possibility to grab the data with you DVD-ROM drive, too many problems (strong encryption on DVD-Audio, SACDs can't even be read with a DVD-ROM drive).

> Also IIRC, S/PDIF can't handle full uncompressed 6-channel audio
> (at least not at 96kHz), or does this product just handle stereo?

S/P-DIF can handle 24 Bit 192 kHz, there are transceivers from AKM (also Tact and Denon use those). The unit used on the output board is the AK4101A.
http://www.akm.com/category.asp?cat=spdif

The product handles 6 channels, both for SACD and DVD-Audio.

i.e. you have three additional cinch S/P-DIF outputs.
First transmits Front Left/Right
Second transmits Rear Left/Right
Third transmits Center/LFE

So basically, you need a sound card that can record/receive from 3 S/PDIF sources at the same time? In addition to the DVD-A/SACD player that can be hacked to interface with this device.

That's a lot of money there.

The future of digital audio looks bleak.

The industry seems to be making huge leaps backwards.

@sthayashi

> So basically, you need a sound card that can record/receive from 3 S/PDIF
> sources at the same time?

Yes, if you want to record the surround track you need three cards, for Stereo one will do.

> In addition to the DVD-A/SACD player that can be
> hacked to interface with this device.
>
> That's a lot of money there.

Yes, but unfortunately there doesn't seem to be another possibility.
I mean, there has been a brute force algorithm around to break the strong encryption (CPPM) of the DVD-Audio, but it will take years and many many computers to do that. For SACD the situation is even worse.

The Player: ~300$ (Pioneer 656)
The output board: ~1200$
The Waveterminal plus addon board: ~1000$ (for stereo)

So with 2500$ you can record the stereo track of any SACD or DVD-Audio.

For interfacing with digital speakers or room EQ, this product is great.

But as a piracy tool... People will just record the analogue outputs.

It seems to me that the price is maybe pitched at the point where it is competitive with 6 channels of high quality A>D conversion. In the target market, this is the competition, and it may do very well.

Even though it's not useful for piracy, I'd expect the record companies to try to do something to stop this. Either they'll try to stop you selling this, or they'll work with chip and player manufacturers to produce a "1 chip decryption/DAC solution" so that there is no unencrypted digital audio to tap into.

Cheers,
David.

@2Bdecided

> But as a piracy tool... People will just record the analogue outputs.

I don't know, we'll see how many units will be sold.

> Even though it's not useful for piracy, I'd expect the record companies to try
> to do something to stop this. Either they'll try to stop you selling this,

Luckily both the developer and the distributor are in Switzerland, so it will be very hard for the record companies to do something due to legal aspects.
We'll see what happens.
There are other ways to circumvent legal prosecution, too.
Maybe you know a tool called 'CloneCD' from http://www.elby.org
The developer simply made a small company in Antigua and sells the product from there now ( http://www.slysoft.com ).

> or they'll work with chip and player manufacturers to produce a "1 chip
> decryption/DAC solution" so that there is no unencrypted digital audio to tap into.

That's what already happens on low cost players.
The new Pioneer 565 for example is a player you better shouldn't buy.

And I doubt that HighEnd Players will ever have single chip solutions.

Just my 2 cents here:

You cannot, as far as I know, even play DVD-Audio discs through a digital connector (except for the DVD Video compatible 5.1 and DTS tracks) because that was one of the provisions for the spec laid out by the record industry. They're scared of someone just hacking the bitstream and doing a digital dump without bothering to hack the copy protection.

Even if someone managed to crack the copy protection scheme through brute force (and let's face it, someone is bound to do so sooner or later) and finding a weak key, the DVD-A copy protection specification has provisions built in to invalidate "broken" keys. Discs pressed before the key was hacked would play (or rip) fine but discs pressed later would deny access to the hacked key. Hopefully after one key is cracked someone can reverse engineer the whole protection scheme, like they did with CSS. Otherwise it would be pretty worthless.

While most discs are mixed across 5.1 or 6.1 channels at 24 bits and 96khz I have seen quite a few discs (of newer music) that is 24 bits and 48khz (which apparently isn't good enough for some people, but then the original masters wouldn't be good enough for some people). And there are a few DVD-A discs (mostly from older groups) that only have 2 channels at 96khz.

At any rate I have done analog transfers on a PC to 24 bit 96khz 2 channel wav files and transcoded them to MP3s and had the result sound better than the same music ripped from the CD version. So I suppose there is always a way to get a rip if you're willing to "step down" to analog for it.

> You cannot, as far as I know, even play DVD-Audio discs through a digital
> connector (except for the DVD Video compatible 5.1 and DTS tracks) because
> that was one of the provisions for the spec laid out by the record industry.
> They're scared of someone just hacking the bitstream and doing a digital dump
> without bothering to hack the copy protection.

If you upgrade your player with the modification I mentioned you CAN play DVD-Audio (and SACD) through digital connectors at full resolution. I have seen and heard the prototype at a HighEnd expo in Switzerland in September.
Since the developer of the modification normally develops digital active loudspeakers he had to find a way to playback DVD-Audio and SACD.
The HDMI interface is way too expensive for the manufacturer and it comes much too late.

I'm sure that before long someone will come up with a way to digitally output music from DVD-A through a hacked firmware or driver (at least on a PC). It's a bit much to be modding expensive equipment with other expensive equipment just to get a digital signal that can't be used for much without breaking the copy protection anyway.

There was a rumor floating around somewhere that there is a hacked DVD ROM firmware that allows a PCs DVD drive to play SACDs digitally but I have never seen the firmware for download anywhere.

The digital signal you get with this device is supposed to be copyprotection-free if I understand correctly. You can use any soundcard with high resolution digital input to transfer the PCM audio data to PC.

> The digital signal you get with this device is supposed to be
> copyprotection-free if I understand correctly.

Yes, normal electrical S/P-DIF with linear PCM 16-24 Bits 44.1/48/88.2/96/176.4/192 kHz, no encryption whatsoever.

> You can use any soundcard with high resolution
> digital input to transfer the PCM audio data to PC.

Yes, for example the Waveterminal 192X from EGO-SYS with the Add-On Board

What about this: http://www.audiorevolution.com/news/0401/27.dvdaudio.shtml

What sound card allows to play DVD-Audio (Audigy 2 ZS - i know only this)?

Is it still impossible to rip DVD-Audio?

I saw a DVD-R(G) and (A) comparision and there was written that we can't burn CSS information on both. Is it true??

Are there any other R(A) drives than Pioneer DVR-S101 and DVR-S201??

this sounds like the sort of technology that Total Recorder uses to record
internet audio-streams that are protected from copying the traditional way.
Total recorder installs a system driver that acts as virtual soundcard and then
feeds the signal to the actual soundcard driver.