Spoon, the creator of dbPowerAmp, has created a new general audio forum called Audio Sense.
http://www.audiosense.org

We welcome his site and wish him good luck in the journey of seeking the unbiased truth.

It might be observed that audiosense.org "unbiased truth" has been apparently created as an alternative to the now-biased and unfair forums here.

It should be interesting to see how the integrity of the forum holds up over time given spoon's abhorration of or lack of conviction in taking action against so-called "trolls" (going by what I can glean about his attitude on the matter from his posts here). There must be some idea there though in how to deal with that problem.

I believe it will also be an interesting challenge for the author of an audio player to provide the "unbiased truth" in a general audio forum

Anyway, it's always nice to see more resources out there, especially which can help attract more people to the audio community and help guide newbies towards better ideas and methods

Hmm, i did take a look around at his forums, and i thought "hey, this could become an interesting place -> "unbiased"." One of the reasons why it appeared interesting to me is that i did notice an increase in zealotry here - especially towards fb2k and EAC (quite ironic that i do mention this, since i'm a fb2k-user myself).

However - after i did read the thread dibrom posted above, i'm skeptical of the intentions and reasons why this new audio forum got started.

I certainly agree with the rules how these forums are moderated. At least since fb2k got hosted here, hydrogen audio is now open to the masses. It's good to bring more light to less knowlegdable people out there, but with the masses, lots of trolls and dumbness comes - and i can tell you from first-hand-experience, that THIS is the point where communities usually fail and degenerate..... when they become bigger too fast and can't handle the unwashed masses - with the result, that the original ideals and the people who founded it get booted of by newbies who give a crap about what the place and community is about.

So, i'm very glad that the admins stick to their ideals here and enforce the forum rules - if they wouldn't, it would become very different here.

Hmm, i'm getting off-topic..... what i was trying to say is, that if these new forums got founded BECAUSE they don't want to handle it that way..... thats okay..... but i'm very sceptical of their survival in the long-run then.

- Lyx

I wonder if that forum appearing was a reacton to Hydrogen's being shut down?

Read the whole thread and the posted link to another thread before spreading rumors. The answer to your above question was posted already in this thread.

- Lyx

The only problem I can see with this new forum is that exept for the minority who followed the discussion between Spoon and Dibrom, the forum appears completely redundant with HydrogenAudio (the sections are alike, as well as the ideology).
I myself have no problems with browsing both forums, but given how it was created, I won't dare post links to HydrogenAudio from AudioSense. And that's a big drawback, since nearly all answers to the questions that will be asked there will be probably already here, and I'm not going to copy them there (waste of time, I link or I do nothing). Thus I'll leave them unanswered.
It's very likely, though, that other AudioSense members will start linking HydrogenAudio threads over there...
Wait and see.

This is an old, old story as far as Internet forums are concerned -- and as far as I'm concerned, it's a myth. Forums only degenerate if they show an inability and/or unwillingness to grow, change and mutate with the times... I've personally seen it go both ways (fwiw, I've been on the Net since around 1993-1994).

This story repeats over and over on so many forums... suddenly there's a big influx of "unwashed masses" watering down the old hands and the "purity" of the forum and its goals, ideals, etc. (utterly irrespective of what those are)... it gets repeated so often, it's just a big bore to keep hearing it. There's nothing to do but complain and whine, I guess... or relax and allow the natural processes of change to occur. If a forum dies because of it, then maybe it wasn't too adaptable in the first place. What's supposed to happen, is a forum supposed to put up prison bars or something to keep out the "unwashed masses?" There's no solution to this kind of thing but to allow it to run its course (or close off the forum to newcomers and watch it rot and stagnate).

Just 2 cents...

i'm sure you realized, that i wasn't just complaining and whining, but instead pointed out, that IMHO there're ways how this can be countered.


"i'm longer there than you, so i know better"...... umm, where is this heading towards? It's okay, if you think its a myth and one should just relax and let things "go their natural processes of change".

I for myself have learned not only by seeing comms where i was part of fail always because of the same reasons, but also by being founder and admin of multiple comms (both net and RL), that IMHO this myth is very real, and there are very simple ways to stop it from happening again.

Also, i wasn't writing anything about putting bars in front of hydrogen audio. I was just saying, that i appreciate, that the admins take care that this forums remain what they're about. Telling people "see, this place is about this and this - if you don't like this, it's not for you." isn't putting bars in front of something - its just explaining the house-rules to "new guests" - i can't see anything wrong with that.

So, i do tolerate your opinion - to everyone his own - but i don't share it.

- Lyx

Fair enough... I'd be curious to hear what those very simple ways are, as well as (in particular) when/where/how they've worked for you in the past -- I'm interested in what you have to say.

Looks like spoon wants the kind of "unbiased" forum where noone rants at him for post-pumping in news section (or even using news section for his personal wars / propaganda, like with poikosoft "news" long ago)... oh well, his choice.

- If the comm is semi-closed, don't grow faster than the comm can handle

- If the comm is completely open(like hydrogen), the above doesn't work that good. If a sudden rush of newcomers happens, enforce the major rules and cornerstones of what the comm is about if necessary.

- Don't be afraid of p***** off newcomers - it's better to loose people who don't understand, than to get into the situation where the regulars on the forum loose control and the newcomers rule over what the comm is about - additionally, you can't please everyone: there's a reason why your comm has its justified place - because it provides something which is different to other comms - which logically means that its not for everyone.

- when trolls and rude people threaten to ruin the fun for regulars, and the danger persists of them silently walking away because of this, show no mercy to the trolls.

- always explain the "why" - otherwise rumours of "power-abuse" may arise which can split the comm into parties. This can be a really annoying and repeating task - but IMHO its necessary.

- adapt to changes - but don't rush it and do it in a well-thought and controlled manner.

- if everything fails, its better to abandon the sunken ship and restart freshly, instead of fighting a lost battle.

- Lyx

Isn't he partially ripping off Roel's catch phrase?

BTW, to anyone wanting to create their personal audio forum: it's worth mentioning audiofora.com has expired.

Is this a new "audio-forum-mania"? In a few days every page on the Internet will contain an audio related forum.

Wait... Now that I am saying it... Maybe I should add that to the VBSpot website...

@JohnV - thanks for the advert, it was a nice touch (as we havn't always agreed).

Only time will tell if the rule set is able to weather the occasional storm, it could be initially audiosense attracts the 'unwashed masses' but even they have something to bring - I am going to run a set of listening tests, one of them is to find 'Joe Averages' perception of CD Quality compression.

@Pio2001

"I won't dare post links to HydrogenAudio from AudioSense"

Links are perfectly ok, I want the site totally open and above board.

@ZZ

"(or even using news section for his personal wars / propaganda, like with poikosoft "news" long ago)... "

I saw a benefit to that, even if you didn't, programs such as CDex were being messed with (mine wasn't at that time), I am glad of the result (which was only achieved through publicising it) - all I asked was for you to stomach one news posting about it.

To be absolutely honest, HA has an elitist streak in it.

The community tends to show a bias towards EAC and foobar2000 ( for better or for worse ), and it tends to jump on people a little too fast. Some of the regulars tend to assume guilty until proven innocent, and go in with bitting comments, and it always goes downhill from there.

I understand the philosophy of not feeding the trolls, but wouldn't everyone here be happier if we were a little patient and didn't jump all around to attack others? Even when they have conflicting viewpoins?

I agree 100%!

I am a foobar2000 and EAC user, because they are simply the best (better than all the rest ) but that doesn't mean I have to go and tell everyone how cool these programs are and how hard others suck (sorry for my language folks).
If someone would write that Winamp is the best player for him because it has that and that feature, I am sure all foobar2000 users will flame him to hell.

The above also applies to other programs, such as EAC (for CD ripping), LAME (MP3 encoding)...


Edit: Just to get something straight. I also don't like people who come and say "I like foobar2000 because it's great." Real arguments have to be provided. Now, I like foobar2000 because it works very fast on my Pentium II (when compared to other resource eating applications), provides excellent quality and has a lot of features by default.
EAC is very good because it has the best error correction, is very easy to use and lets you customize its options like no other tools can do (offsets, several error correction modes...).
I use LAME because it has a very good quality (in my oppinion) and the MP3 format is supported by a lot of hardware players (DVD players, portable devices...).


Regards,
Sebastian Mares

I don't know what can be done if the community likes EAC. I don't see much sense to try to "unbias" users from EAC. Discussion of all software is allowed and in that sense there's no bias at HA. If people happen to like EAC, there's not much that can be done, and why should there?

We have already increased the moderator count by 2 today (dev0 and tigre). Hopefully we can prevent better any unfriendliness of EAC/Fb2k users which might have happened at HA-forums...

The Fb2k forums are Peter's area though, so HA is not going to take responsibility if there is any unfriendliness towards other players, but at HA-forums this should not happen if it's a proper thread with honest purposes.. We might need to put again a different skin for the fb2k-forums, in order to make the difference between HA and fb2k forums more clear for the users..

It has nothing to do with the fact that people like EAC. It has a lot to do with the fact that people just come and say EAC is good, all other rippers suck. It might be that way, but you should provide arguments why other rippers really suck. By the way, this hasn't got anything to do with YOU, but with some users here.

I also have to admit that users (and even I) don't search for things, but ask directly, causing X topics with the same question to exist. I a sure that many users get annoyed by the fact that they have to explain the same thing 1000 times to people who are too lazy to use the Search function (now that it works good).

problem is that people don't take time to read previous posts, faqs, etc, they just go out and say "what is the best format?" and such ... we should have a 15 days restriction before allowing to post ...

Yeah, I agree. That is unfortunate.. I hope people would use the report post -feature in these cases, in order to make the moderation easier.
I've personally tried to keep an eye especially the codec claims, and I think we have succeeded reasonably well in this area.

No, I like the attitude in these forums which seem to moderated very well.
The whole audio scene tends to be prown to placebo and you can't fight this placebo effect other than by proving it.
This might be a problem especially with audio matters and I think we all shall keep sensible with that.

The zealotry in these forums is still an issue. Perhaps more posts should be deleted, eg posts like "Just use Foobar" in threads discussing winamp sound issues.

Very well. I thought it was some sort of panic button for really offensive stuff, but you encourage use for much less? Feels a bit akward for me, but we'll see...

/Erik - Frequent reader

Indeed, see http://www.audiosense.org/forum/showthread.php?t=18

Anything starting with the words "What is the best ..." should be removed on sight and the poster's account suspended at least for a week

For the above cases, yes, I encourage the use of it. HA is way too big forum in order to control every post 100% so that the majority would be totally happy. Even more, I'm sure most of the staff, like me, would like to use their time discussing some technical issues, instead of screening 400 posts a day...

Geez... Thanks God my post is "Recommended encoding settings" and not "Best encoding settings"...

I'd rather say that the thread should get closed with typical FAQ explanation.

Very fair point there, even though I'm personally quite wary regarding centralized moderation (with regards to deleting posts and other hidden alterations. Generally I have no problem with locking/banning of threads on public grounds nor other visible actions/reasons).

Personally (I havent checked if they already exists) I would love it if this place had a "Ignore posts by user", "Ignore thread" and personal preference to set the viewing style of threads as tree-structure.

Edit: minor correction.

@DAvenger, not everyone that is a member of an audio forum is particularly interested in the intricacies of audio encoding/decoding on a technical level. They have a specific question they want answered and don't ask for proof to be provided. I know how highly truth/proof is valued here but not everyone is as bothered. If a large number of people suggest the same answer, that is good enough for many of us. We know that we know little about audio matters and don't consider this a shortcoming at all. You can get as worked up as you want about 'trolls' but let me advise you to realise that we are not interested in your slurs.

simonh: there are house-rules here. If you don't like them, this is not for you. Beeing on this forum isn't a right, but a privilege instead.

Even if one is not technically interested, asking in threads about "whats the best xyz" is both, provoking trolling and - notice this - the wrong wording for what you're asking. Why? Simply because you weren't asking for "what is the best", but instead "what suits my needs best". Additionally, you may want to take a look at the netiquette considering how topics should be written - calling the topic of a thread "what is the best xyz?" is a very inaccurate description. It would be more informative, if there is information in the topic-title about what exactly you're looking for - and since there is no "the best" - information about your specific needs should be placed there.

for example, if you're looking for an audio-ripper, which is, PRIMARY: easy to setup and use.... SECONDARY: on-the-fly-encoding..... TERTIARY: supports freedb.... you could do the following:

USE THE SEARCH FEATURE!!!

if you dont find what you're looking for, start a new thread, naming it:



instead of:


- Lyx

Point taken and understood Lyx. As you know, the said post was not made here. It was made on Spoons forum because it is brand new and it is a question I have not been able to answer elsewhere. I agree that it is useful to phrase posts in a way that is not so general and subjective i.e 'what is the best' however, even though I now realise this, many people won't, and it will continue to annoy some people which seems a shame. Surely, there are far more important things one could worry about (if they have a tendency to worry).

Anyway, your explanation was good and you made me see a different angle.

Edit: I did search here (using search feature + trawling the countless pages) and did not find an answer...

point taken too

another thing..... the above description doesn't just avoid trolling and makes the job for others to help you easier - it also helps you! Because what answers you get depends on the way how you ask.... asume this scenario(i'll take the ripper-example again:

you want specific things from an audio-ripper and want to get suggestion on which one is the best -for your demands-.
If in this scenario, if you'd ask "whats the best cd-ripper" chances of getting a -good- suggestion is low, because zealotry-hell will break loose - most people will suggest you to use THEIR favorite-app - what you're actually doing isn't asking others to help you, but instead you're running a poll on which one is the favorite ripper
At the end of the day, you still don't know which is the best ripper for your needs, but instead you know, which ripper others do like best for THEIR needs.

- Lyx

I think AstalStorms solution is a good one. Directing to an F.A.Q. would solve the problem and stop people making unhelpful, arrogant posts. After all, searching does not always answer the question unless one has days to spend (on massive forums like HA)

This is one of those things I see echoed in so many forums, and I have to disagree to some extent. Perhaps its just the way I view a forum. I don't see it as a research library - I see it more in the spirit of a convention. Someone wanders in, reads just enough to realize they might like it here, grabs a cocktail, and starts a conversation . . . which will probably take on the form of "How do I . . . "

Veterans can clearly see the subject title and pass, while mid-noobs, (my term), who don't quite have the expertise of the veterans now have the opportunity to field a question that they, themselves, learned by asking questions. They get to give something back, and gain a feeling of being part of the community.

There's no downside. Us mid-noobs will happily field the "Whats the best lame settings." questions.

Dex