Hi all,

I'm just about to buy some new speakers,it's a very rare occasion for me so I am trying to make sure I get the best my money can buy.

Every speaker manufacturer claims their speakers are the dogs bollocks and the best you can possibly buy for the money.
And of coarse their allways the more reliable route of product information by listenning too the reviews in audio magazines,how reliable and unbiased are these I dunno.

But without a doubt the best review anyone can do is a self listenning review,not completely practable as many audio shops don't have enough room,staff,time etc too provide this.

So I've done tons of reading reviews and now I think I'm finally getting the speakers for me down to a reasobale number where I may go out to a audio shop and listen before I make my decision.

The kind of speakers I prefer will be floorstanding,with a middle ground accurate monitor like realism for music production and a warmish sound because I will also use them for general music listenning.

The speakers I'd get if I had the cash would be the Quad 22L ,but @ £895 they are out of my price range Quad 22L

I could go for the 11L for £379 but I'd really prefer some floorstanding speakers.

I've also looked @ some :-

Whardale Diamond 8.4 Wharfdale Diamond 8.4

Whardale pacific

Mission m53

B & W c a3

to name a few.

Can anyone reccommend any speakers maybe similar too the quad 11L in price and specs yet floorstanders.?

Tommorow I'm going to a shop where I will compare the Quad 11L with the mission m53 and a yet unknown model of B & W all of which makes the shop sells.

I hoping you guys @ www.hydrogenaudio.org can shed any more light on the subject of the speakers I should be testing for my needs,for as I said I've waited years for some new speakers, so when I buy these I want to be as happy with them as I was when I chose the SENNHEISER HD580 PRECISION headphones, after going out and listenning to them because they'd been highly reccommended on this forum.

Though I can only speak for myself and not the rest of the HA community, I use a completely different set of speakers. Though it's not what you asked for, I can certainly recommend some bookshelf speakers. Ascend Acoustics' CBM-170 are an amazing pair of speakers when combined with a subwoofer (I use the Hsu VTF-2)

The combined package of the speakers + subwoofer is roughly in the price range that you described, so if you haven't completely ruled out bookshelf speakers, you may want to look at this combination.

Thanks sthavashi,

No I certainly havn't ruled out book shelf speakers,I'd really prefer floorstanding because of the room they will be placed in, provided they are of a good quality they should make good use of that extra cabinet space, thus I won't need an additional subwoofer for my needs thus achieve a bass unit on either side which for feeling I like..

can't the Ascends Acoustics CBM-170 be purchased in the UK?.

I kinda can't decide yet between the lovely warm bass the mission m52'53's produce or the (yet to be tested) accurate response and realism' but yet, may be alittle clinical, sound of the Quad 11L .

Those CBM-170 have some fantastic reviews,though I havn't seen any in shops in the UK where I could give them a test listen.

Unfortunately I'm not sure what all is availible in the UK.

I have not heard either the Ascends, Quads or those particular Mission speakers. I have heard the Wharfedale 8.1's and they are very good.

Definitive Technology's 6B and 8B bipolar tower speakers are really superb, and run about $600 and $800 a pair, respectively. They are bipolar and so cannot be totally flush to the wall behind them.

I use NHT SB-3 bookshelf speakers on my stereo setup and like them so much that I have no reservations about recommending their bigger brother, the floorstanding ST-4, which is basically the same thing in a tower with a side-firing 8" woofer.
Availibility in the UK is unknown to me. Price in the US is roughly $1000/pair.

I'd also suggest you take a look at the Paradigm Monitor 7 and Monitor 9 tower speakers. They both sounded fantastic to my ears, though the low bass response on the former model wasn't anything special. The Monitor 7 should be less than the ST-4 while the Monitor 9 is likely more.

Make sure you audition the speaker you plan to buy before you do so, and bring more than one CD

I'm only familiar with the Ascends directly since I own them. I don't know where the good hifi shops are around here and frankly, I'm always worried about going to one.

Ascend has a 30-day money back guarantee, and I THINK they ship internationally. They don't cost that much because they're straight from the factory, and thus, you aren't likely going to see them in your local store. That said, it's probably much riskier to simply try them for you since you're in Britain, and these guys are in California.

If you're still willing to give them a try, I'd email them. Their customer support is amazing and I'm sure they can explain their own policies better than I can.

Sorry I can't help you with your actual considerations.

Wharfedale Pacific Evo 20s. (Wharfedale manufactured by same company as Quad now - all under same umbrella - when i tok my Quad 77 amp for service i heard some quad 11l and some Wharfedale evos - i was impressed by the evo30 - very impressed, the evo 20s are 400-450)

Also Dynaudio audience 52 is very good dynamically. Alternatively a pair of the old Pi30 speakers can be had very cheaply and are quite good (mentioned above) i think, bassy i believe. Usually in this price range its a choice between a smaller speaker with better drive units and a better overall sound or a larger box with an extra lower cost driver for more bass but the same basic characteriscs of a lower price speaker. Its a question of what you want. Best way is to have a listen.

Unfortunately speakers are much harder to recommend than for instance Sennheiser headphones. Laws of physics and practical experience states that good speakers are much more difficult and expensive to make than good headphones. It's impossible to make speakers with flat frequency response, and then there's the whole issue of room acoustics. In the end, it all boils down to personal preferences; which frequencies are important for you.

The only speakers in somewhat sane price range that can be 100% recommended for all listeners are Genelecs. Most studios use those, so I reckon they deliver pretty accurate sound.

Floorstanding speakers are even more difficult issue because they are extremely easy to screw up acoustically. Three-way speakers mean that there are more components in the passive crossover network, the cones might not work seamlessly together, and the sound doesn't come from a point source anymore. Even two-way floorstanders are difficult because they usually suffer from bad room acoustics more than bookshelf speakers.

In the end, good bookshelf speakers are much easier to manufacture than good floorstanders. They don't suffer from room acoustics very much, the sound comes from a point source, and the soundstage and stereo image are usually much better. The only downside of small speakers is the lack of bass and sound pressure.

You would almost certainly have to try different speakers at your home. If some floorstander sounds great in the store, it doesn't mean that it will continue to do so at your home listening environment.

I personally own Wharfedale 8.4's and wouldn't recommend them. They are incrediably sensitive to placement, the lower middle frequencies (the baritone range and rhythm guitar) are attenuated, and they aren't as accurate as the rest of the Wharfedale line.

Take the time to visit lots of shops, and listen carefully. Using your own discs.

(and even that doesn't really help with speakers - but you can probably look at the space within the shop, compare it with the space within your own room, and draw some conclusions)


Have you thought about building your own? £350 buys £1000+ worth of speaker - if you're lucky/skilled/careful. If you pick badly, or build badly, it buys you almost nothing!

(I don't have any recommendations, because I haven't done it, but there are plenty of people out there who have - there are plenty of adverts in various Hi-Fi magazines too. Knowing the cost of drivers in some £10,000+ speakers, and knowing that you're (kind-of) free to "emulate" the designs in your own home, tells me that it should be possible to get close within your budget)

Cheers,
David.

I own a pair of Kef Q1's and I love them to bits. I think it would be worth auditioning the Q3's or Q5's if you want floorstanders.

Speakers have not changed much over the past 20 years. Consider buying some used speakers with a few years behind them. You will need to listen to them and check them for visible defects. You can usually get used hi-fi for 20-50% of the new price, which means you can get so much more.

I would second Audibles motion of Definitive Technology, or Boston Acoustics.
You won't go wrong with either of those. (Don't know if there available in the UK or not.)

Dex

As for monitors, Mackie HR624 are superb. The bass extends a long way for being a bookshelf kind. They're active so no need for finding matching amplifier. Wouldn't recommend HR824 though, too much and muddy bass for me.

Genelecs?, can't stand them. Listened some to them at themusic store, and they are too monitor'ish for me.

What would that be? I'm curious

What amp and sources are you using?

Just a simple point: The UK and USA are several thousand miles apart.

Comparatively few speakers made in the one country ever make it to the other.


btw, I love this website:
http://www.affordablevalvecompany.com
(also has some speakers)

I really must try them one day - I can afford to lose £30 for 30 days of fun, and might decide I love them. The amps, rather than the speakers.


Cheers,
David.
EDIT: P.S. 2nd hand (used) Hi-Fi can be a real bargain, but check speakers very very carefully.

That's the whole point; if you don't like their sound you can always say that the record you listened was poorly mastered

People have different tastes of what they find annoying or pleasant in speakers. That depends mostly on the speaker's frequency (and possibly impulse) response. Without knowing someone's preferences, one can only recommend speakers with as flat frequency curve ("monitorish") as possible.

I suggest taking your favourite two pairs of speakers home over the weekend and listen to them in YOUR room and with YOUR setup for a longer period of time.

The room-modes were mentioned before (a showroom with lots of speakers standing around is different to the average living-room), but the combination of speakers+amp will also determine how the speakers perform (not every amp can handle the load of a set of speakers equally good).

And of course, as you said in your post: It´s a rare occasion, so why not have some fun finding YOUR set of speakers?!

(always assuming you have the necessary means of transportation and find a hifi-dealer that is willing to lend you the speakers for the weekend.)

Thanks guys for some great info


At the moment I have a trio-kenwood stereo integrated amp KA -45

I bought it from a second hand shop a few years ago so don't have any specification on it other than whats printed on the back of the amp.

Speakers ( 4~16 ohm)

AC 240 V~
50/60 Hz
150 W

I think the 150W is an indication of the power consumption of the amplifier rather than a guide for the power supply handling for connected speakers.
Though @ the present I have 4 of 50 w 8 ohm each speakers connected in series being easily driven from this amp so it seems to be moderately powerful.I would like too upgrade eventually but for now I'm hoping this amp will have enough drive to power the speakers I get.

To quote niktheblak 'In the end, good bookshelf speakers are much easier to manufacture than good floor-standers. They don't suffer from room acoustics very much, the sound comes from a point source, and the soundstage and stereo image are usually much better. The only downside of small speakers is the lack of bass and sound pressure.'

This just echo's my speaker test that I did today using firstly a pair of the highly anticipated ( by me ) Quad 11L bookshelf speaker.
These speakers are lovely, though lack the presence/depth of bass due to their size,combine the Quad 11L's with a good matching Sub-Bass and it would be a very nice setup or go for the 22L's at more than twice the price to gain that extra bass.
But for my situation & budget I need a 'all in one' pair of speakers.

To quote sshd 'Speakers have not changed much over the past 20 years. Consider buying some used speakers with a few years behind them. You will need to listen to them and check them for visible defects. You can usually get used hi-fi for 20-50% of the new price, which means you can get so much more.'

I agree in part,though some speakers far more than headphones can have designed characteristics especially suited to the kind of music styles that the listener will use them for,then again as niktheblak said peoples taste in what they find pleasing in sounds maybe more diverse so choosing the right speaker maybe more about personal listening preference than music preference,if some modern speaker designs have been tweaked for the modern capabilities of synthesisers then these would suit me best.

To quote 2Bdecided 'have you thought about building your own?'

I have considered this as an option,but then I read the different methods speaker manufacturers use in building and designing speakers and cabinets and matching the right components together ,and think I'd probably get as good a speaker buying from a well known manufacturer,either that or I could educate myself more and become an expert my self in speaker making B) .

After I tested the Quads 11L and found them full in audio quality yet lacking in bass due too the styles I like and money I can't afford too spend on an a Quad sub or floor-standing 21L ,I tested out some of these speakers.

DM603 S3B & W DM603 S3

I found these speakers to be a good comparison between monitor class,hi-fi sound and within my budget.
They are a 2 1/2 way speaker and use a separate driver for bass .The mid range was OK and the treble too.The B & W DM603 S3 sounded to be well designed with no frequency range - treble/mid/ or bass sounding to be at odds or competing with other frequency's for attention.
Though If your passion was classical the Quad 11L's,12L's,21L's or £1000 22L's would be a better match,I guess their just are some speakers that ask for a specific sound to be sent through them to be heard best and the quads are some of these speakers.

The B & W Dm's have a choice of polished finishers and look quite modern, which for a speaker this size being a centre view peace in any room is definitely a nice bonus .

BUT, I have only tested a few models of speakers and finding shops for testing is difficult where I live.
I am impressed with the B & W dm speakers and if I don't hear anything that should put me off them or a similar model at the same price yet better components I think they will do fine for me..?well for the next few years anyhow.

Well, there are speakers who have flat response but doesn't sound monitorish at all. Usually monitors are quite forward sounding in the midrange around 2khz, and I think that spoils the fun in listening, although it might be beneficial when you've been mixing for 6hrs in a row and is trying to find that prefect blend of guitars and vocals...
:x :x

Again, monitorish is a very vague decription, I would assume that you mean sharp and very responsive towards transients, and slighly lower bass than a non-monitorish speaker/monitor.


This is a great generalization and couldn't really be taken seriously, if you could back this up I'd lift an eyebrowse but that's quite unlikely and I'd be quite curious as of how this conlclusion was made.


After six hours of mixing you should take a break and continue another day, lowering 'treble' or higher frequencies is a better solution. Ears are very sensitive and are easily fatigued by higher frequencies, hence mixing for a long time or amplifying higher frequencies spoil your mixingsession. This is mixing/mastering 101.

I went through this process about 2 years ago and will offer what I found, its a bit long but it represents what I have learned over the years in search of an optimum listenting experince.

1) You must audition speakers for yourself in the store, or preferably in your home.
Don't let anyone tell you what is "best", the hardware industry is filled with hype, and much of the "elite magazines" seem to be in support of their biggest advetisers. Look at what hi-fi, they have warm gushy reviews of all of B&W line's with only very subjective descriptions. (despite this I bought a pair of DM 603S3)

2) If you are looking for reviews by regular owners audioreview.comcom has the most

3)I loved the DM 603S3, they do need a break in period. They sounded excelent to me in the store and after they broke in at home. At first the bass was overwhelming and boomy, but that went away. In the store I could never quite get subs to have a perfectly smooth transition with a bookshelf, I am sure there are people who have gotten this fine line, but I didn't.

4)Audiotion with good and bad mastered CD's . You should know how good the speakers should make good music sound, and how bad poorly mastered CD's sound. I found that many of my CD are not that well mastered. Some of the better mastered CD's I have come across are any Pink floyd album (The Wall, Dark side of the moon), The remastered Led Zepplin, MTV unpluged albums (Nirvana, 10,000 Maniacs) Dave Mathew's band, especialy his live stuff. House/dance while usualy not the best mastered does sound awsome on a good system and gives you a good idea of how well a the speakers can fill the room. Rap has lots of bass, but is often poorly mastered and the bass is not tight. I find live albums are the best for evaluating imaging, and depth of field. I get my kicks from closing my eyes and pretending I am in the front row and can hear where all of the instruments are on stage(and tunning out my wife laughing at me).

Listen to the speakers at the same volume, wich is not necessarily the same level on the volume control of the same amp!!! and at the volume you plan to routinly listen to them in your house. It has been well demonstrated we thing louder is better. And I have found that my speakers need a little more volume then my wife likes to fully "immerse" me in my music

5) Listent to the 604. I never had real speakers before and thought that 603's had all the bass I could ever want or need but, now that I am used to them I don't find myself needing more, but I there are times I would appreciated it. With the 604 you would have verry little need for sub envy. These speakers (603 or 4) should last you a long time and can handle some serious hardware. That being said, my 603 do have quite an impact with action movies, more then my wife or neigbors appreciates.

6) Spend your money on speakers now, and then get other good equipment as money allows, you will spend less and be happier in the long run if get good equipment the first time.

7)Your only as good as your weekest link. My chain is EAC - Lame (settings ranging from r3mix to standardand Insane) -- etherenet to Audiotron -- optical -- Yamaha HTR 5280 - B&W DM603S3, LCR 60, DM 600. With two channel audio I cannot tell the difference between a CD and compressed when I informaly, unblinded, A/B with at least preset standard. Any time I think one of my MP3's dosent sound right I A/B it with the original CD, the problem has always been with the original cd. But I have not done extensive tests, nor despite the ability to instantly pick out 128bps on any system, have I trained my ears to pick out the finer MP3 flaws. For me, untill I switch to lossles (wich is comming when a Digital audio reciever with optical out supports it well), I don't want to spoil my listening pleasure if they do exist. BTW, I doubt the extent they exist would be significant if I have not picked them up by now, and some pretty educated/golden ears/anal people on this board have been pretty satisfied with DM preset standard from a qulaity point.

8)Digital audio reciever with optical out (Audiotron after all these years is still one of the only)- I can not say too many nice things about this. This was the missing link and my motivation to buy a good stereo. Long distances between a computer and a stereo need to be travesred with digital not analog, even optical audio cabe suffers to some extent over long distances. Etherenet or Wifi is best for this. Most DAR have crappy D/A convertes, even the audiotron, an optical output is a must.

9) Positioning you speakers is very important, there will always be a sweet spot. Position this for you, no one else cares nearly as much about the sound quality as you do, most of my friends think I am obsesed/nuts, but are jelous of the convience factor. (Maybe I am? when looking for the apartment I am now renting I game my wife specific instructions of living room shape and minimum dimentions.)

To be able to sit on my nice couch in the living room and have 500 albums at my fingertips, with amazing clarity is the end point of my obsessions with speakers and encoding. All of this has been a means to and end. But the quest for perfection continues... better amp, lossles, SACD...

I hope someone finds some of this helpfull, I would have loved to have seen most of this when I was just starting. I think I have reached a point of high convience and where the MOST limiting factor by far is the quality of the original CD. BTW movies dont sound to bad either! Let me know if you have any other questions.

If you're looking for absolute quality on a budget, I suggest you look at Magnepan.
www.magnepan.com

I have a pair of the MG 1.6QR's and absolutely love them. Even though they only cost $1650 USD per pair, they're routinely compared with speakers costing upwards of $10K. Manepan has an offer on their MMG's, which are considerably smaller than the 1.6's, where they let you try them out for 30 days and if you're not satisfied you get the $550 back.

Take a look at the reviews for Magnepan products on audioreview.com and you'll see. They are truly remarkable speakers!

MTHR, Well I cant back it up if you mean in terms of measurements and stuff. All I can say is that I have listened to a lot of monitors when I decided to buy mine, Tannoy Reveal Active. And I personally found the Genelecs to be kind of hard sounding and extremely unforgiving. Well, usually that's a good thing when using monitors (they're a tool after all), but there is a certain amount of hardness that my ears can stand, and especially the smaller genelecs were simply too much.

I use my monitors when I compose too, and then you want some amount of sweetness too. And then there is the fact that music is made for the masses, and the masses don't have flat response speakers at home. And even if they had, their badly acoustically treated rooms will most certainly mess up the response quite badly anyway. Mostly in the mid-bass region. I've mixed badly thanks to some room-modes around 120Hz and 200Hz.

There are other aspects than just flat response. For example Waterfall diagrams and response off-axis, distortion etc... so just reading the frequency response wont tell you how they sound. Flat response is a good start though.

And I don't mix for 6hrs in a row, that was a joke.

B & W602 S3 users Reviews

Well Guys I bought my new bookshelf B & W602 S3 speakers today,I'd Auditioned the floorstanding DM603 S3 & felt they were a nice all round speaker but the cost was slightly out of my budget.
Initially I had my mind nearly made up that I was going to get some Floorstanders with the impression that this would utilise cabinet space and give more bass.

Thanks to niktheblak for this information.

'In the end, good bookshelf speakers are much easier to manufacture than good floor-standers. They don't suffer from room acoustics very much, the sound comes from a point source, and the soundstage and stereo image are usually much better. The only downside of small speakers is the lack of bass and sound pressure.

The nice thing about the bookshelF DM602 s3'S are they are not small speakers either sounding or looking,

Height: 19.3 "
Width : 9.3 "
Depth: 11.5"
weight:10.5Kg (23.1lb)


Infact if your gonna put these speakers on a shelf you better make sure it's a very strong and big shelf.
They have a lovely big cabinet that allows the bass too breath from a hi-tech looking 7" woven/kevlar cone bass/midrange speaker.

I've gone for the Sorrento cabinet like the one in the picture (via the above link),a mix of a natural wood like finish for the cabinet and a space like solid plastic light-grey front-end with a metallic tweeter and a silver and pale-yellow 7" speaker.

I think they look great , but what about the sound?sounds great too! but since I've only had them playing for a few hours I'm going to give them some run-in time before I try to explain in detail how these speakers sound to me.

overall rating so far: If you have more sense than money then these speakers can be bought at a price that makes sound sense. .If you have more money than sense spend alittle less and buy some sense & respect by giving the rest to a good coarse of your choice.

B & W DM602 S3 Speaker review:

Ok I've had my B & W speakers for a few days ( almost playing constantly ) so for informational purpose I'm submitting my review of these speakers.

This isn't a comparative view of how the DM603 S3 compare with other speakers in the £300 pounds price range,this is simply a descriptive review of the quality of sound these speakers produced within the ideals of the kind of music I like ( electronic,dance,ambient,progressive,IDM etc ) ,and what speaker acoustics & dynamics make these kind of genre's of music pleasing to my ears.

As I mentioned before the DM602 S3 has a comparatively medium large cabinet and this certainly aids in allowing the main 7" speaker to produce a warm bass, yet the low bass frequency's this speaker produce give me a perception that the sound has only some subtle added colour.Though the speaker holds a nice tight definition the roomy cabinet size enables some flexibility and adaptation so the sound is not too clinical.
So these speakers can be used as a monitor style speaker whilst using a Graphic Equalizer set to neutral and also as a Hi-fi speaker for listening to music.

The tweeter also producers a near accurate rendition of the music though @ times seems to have a little too much prominence,this can be easily tweaked out by using an graphic equalizer and slightly lowering the high frequency or treble range.

As for the the visual appearance of these speakers I am also very impressed,with the front covers off the speaker looks very modern even futuristic.Fancy a change and put the black front covers on & together with the wood like cabinet they look much more traditional.

Conclusion:If you enjoy music with bass,beats and high frequency's these speakers perform very well on their own as part of a stereo hi-fi system.

If I was to give any advice to someone who is looking to buy some new speakers,it would be:-=
'Think about what you like when listening to music,what type of sounds are you most attracted to,what will you use the speaker for,music,film,production.what will the size of the room be they are placed in.
Then with your budget in mind, read reviews,listen to speakers @ hi-fi shops.Be patient and eventually you'll decide for your self which speakers are best for you.'
&
Don't let anyone decide for you!.

I just wish I could of afforded the DM603 S3 or DM 604 S3 so as to get more low level bass ( near Floor bass).
But at least I can now save up for some B & W Matching Sub-woofers to compliment these speakers.

Final analysis > . Satisfied

I did have fun thanks