please tell me someone - how can I warp AAC files into AVI container? I can use MP4 but I want to try AVI. Maybe VirtualDubMod can do it? I know it can manage AC3, OGG and MP3.

You need a working AAC ACM codec for that I think. I say working, cause there exists one, but it doesn't really work in it's current shape.

Menno

AAC in AVI is possible in principal, but to be 100% AVI spec compliant it needed to be CBR ( Constant Bitrate ). Of course, maybe the same hack as with VBR MP3 in AVI would work, but then you cant use an ACM codec anymore but have to hardcode AAC support into the AVI writing app, like VirtualdubMod. Cyrius, the main dev of it, has no intention do so he once told me ....

And now that we have the beautiful, wonderful, and extensible Matroska, we really don't have much need for it.

Or the variation:

And now that we have the beautiful, wonderful, and extensible MP4, we really don't have much need for it.

You'll even be conforming to an ISO standard If you don't want to use MPEG-4 or H.263 video, you can try the MOV file format.

Do you need to register with Microsoft if you are going to use AAC within the AVI container? Do you need some kind of Microsoft Development Tool Kits to develope an ACM codec?

I guess you'd need Visual C++, an open-source ACM audio codec (LAME's ?), some patience and lots of motivation.

About Microsoft: they consider AVI as an obsolete format, and they don't support or help independant developers (because they don't need nor like them). So don't expect much from them.

Good luck !

Ahhh... I remembered that in my former company.. we had to hire a Master Degree person just to crack the windows 95 AVI driver because there is No documentation by Microsoft.. Something like "Windows 95 Hacked"..

I just hope nody will really think about making an AAC ACM codec.

The Indians have/had a saying i was told :

'Once you recognize you are riding a dead horse, leave it behind and get a new one ...'

.....

If AAC has constant frame duration, then the MP3 hack would work, but according to the specs I have, AAC can have variable frame duration...

It has constant frame duration. The frame duration can only change from file to file, not in a file.

Menno

Ah! So it is similar to DTS. I yet want to see a DTS file with variable frame duration

Then it is possible to hack it into AVI

BEWARE !!!!!

If that happens, i immediately quit my job on Vdub Support Forums, sorry Avery Lee ..... we have enough people coming there asking why this and that doesnt work in Vdub, AAC audio in AVI would certainly be the final thing to make me leave there !

Of course, before alexnoe will kick my ass now, this is not a limitation of AVI, but of the VfW/VCM API and Vdub ....

Good lord... >_<

why not just use another container before hacking avi?

Maybe because AVI is the most widely used and supported container... ?

Hacking it is fun! That's all! Who would ever have though that you can not only put SSA into AVI, but that even splitting/joining files, even if the styles differ, would work out

Hehe, Nic once made a program which put aac into wav so you could mux it into avi, it used to be available on rarewares but I can't find it there anymore. It was called Nic's crappy beta IIRC. It didn't work all that well either.

Well, Nic did that so that AAC could be played on DirectShow. That's the reason of the hackish WAV wrapping.

I deleted it because nowadays there are more elegant ways of loading AAC in dshow (wrapping in MP4 or using the AAC parser filter). Also, his directshow filter was based on FAAD1, which is slower and less featureful than faad2 (used in CoreAAC).

Regards;

Roberto.

In the other thread I started on this topic Latexxx notes that the AAC parser filter isn't working. Is he correct?

It seems like he might just be missing a filter.

I wonder why Nic named it "crappy beta"

i have the same result than Latexxx
but the AAC parser filter is working for playback

The muxing issue isn't aac source filter's fault it is the avi muxer's fault. There just isn't currently any way to mux aac to avi. Just like ChristianHJW earlier said:

There is. I did it a few minutes ago. I just need to try with multichannel AACs now, and have to find a way to read AAC from AVI back (which will be total crap, since it requires to be read binary, like an MP3 stream, but lacks proper stream headers, once the ADTS headers are striped).

If I don't encounter problems, i'll soon release AVI-Mux GUI 1.15.4 with AAC support, for AVI and MKV output

Of course, I also need to check if the VBR hack works reliably...

When I wrote my ACM AAC codec, I just left the ADTS headers. Solved a lot of problems

Menno

Everything seems to be possible nowadays. The only thing, which bothers me, is that vbr audio in avi is a non-standard hack. I understand that it is interesting to create hacks like this but I fear that people will start using this. It would be much better to have a standard for things like this instead of just creating new non-standard extensions to old'n'crappy technology.

this bring back memories from vgf.com

Back these days i did send a copy of some MS SDK down to Ivan Dimkovic (the days of psytell) from denmark to...some place more down in the souths.
I send it on a CDR by mail cause Ivan didn't have broadband connection and i was sitting on a 2mbit pipe.

I also did testings for Nic on the crappy filter...hey i'm even mention in the credits file somwhere

but to say it so Nic filter did crash alot when seeking and did not playbakc in correct speed. Audio/video would got more and more out of sync.
to bad.....

--Edit--
spelling errors

Just to confirm what i said above :

As soon as the first real questions from Virtualdub users appear on the support forums why they cant handle AAC in AVI with it, i quit ......

I know its alexnoe's biggest goal to hack anything into AVI he just can. He is doing that based on some imaginary OpenDML AVI specs who have been around some years ago already, and were never really implemented in practice. He is dreaming of a new AVI, while others ( like me ) would like to see it dead, the sooner the earlier !

I am convinced this is the wrong way, but as a real technician, alex is more interested in what is technically feasible, instead of what is a sensible thing to do. He is developer, and very much into video compression, so he can help himself all the time if he struggles with what he did, or recognizes it needs improvement. He is probably not aware of the pain he is implying on others, normal users, who dont understand the all the circumstances and specifics of what AVI, what VfW is, what ACM can do and what not, and why DirectShow is sometimes used for playback only and why on earth he cant load the file in normal AVI processing tools then, as he is convinced he has the 'codec' installed.

Nando made a lot possible with nandub, but apart from the excellent SBR encoding support for MPEG4V3 he did ( and he never caused any compatibility problems with that ! ), all the other stuff like VBR MP3 in AVI, Ogg Vorbis in AVI ( Vorbis including Ogg, means container in a container ! ), IMHO, was causing nothing but problems with only minimal impact on quality. I would really like to know how many people have been giving up on video processing because of first, frustrating experiences when trying to cut or edit a VBR MP3 AVI in any other AVI editing app than nandub itself ( and later VdubMod ). Anyhow, i sincerely hope it doesnt work out for playback ......

BTW : if i had the chance to choose between

MP4 becoming the most used standard for video editors, and AVI finally going to hell, but matroska failing and being replaced by MP4 completely

and

AVI gaining a 2nd life thanks to a number of glorius actions like the one reported above, MP4 being only used for streaming stuff and never gaining proper and free support in freeware editing tools, and matroska doing nicely because it has that already

i'd prefer the first one !!

I'd rather see our beloved project die, than AVI gaining a 2nd life ! Howgh !!

I agree with ChristianHJW, I rather see his project die than AVI getting a 2nd life

Seriously, AAC in AVI is extremely suboptimal, the fact that it needs weird hacks says more than enough. There are containers out there that are much better suited for AAC or even part of the same standard (MP4).

Menno

Reading this thread, I don't understand the point of getting AAC into AVI when there are two ( or is it three - I think OGM supports AAC now as well) great solutions for AAC with video, with perfectly viable playback and editing software available.

This might be a little inflammatory, but to me the only reason to put AAC into AVI is for piracy reasons - when someone downloads a movie, it'll be easier for them to install just an AAC filter rather than an AAC filter plus a MKV/MP4/OGM splitter.

Streching technologies to the limit is always interesting, but unfortunately people will eventually start to use the hacks which are only created because of the general interest in technology. Programs, which allow users to do something which causes compatibility problems with other programs, should only be distributed in soure form. This would limit the possible user group only to contain the true enthusiasts who are only interested in hacking because they want to learn new things and explore the possibilities of the technology.
I believe that it is good to have people who always push the boundaries but they should also realize that all method and technologies shouldn't be widely distributed because they might only create more problems than they solve. Hacking is a good thing but distributing the results isn't always ideal.

Hey alexnoe, stop that, you are making Baby Jesus cry

When reading the reactions to my post, I cannot help but ROTFL

However, even the M$ splitter handles the files (after deb0rking some stuff. Gabest's filter is appearently more tolerant to b0rked headers). Also, I am using the very same hack as for MP3. As already explained, MP3 (and now also AAC), use VIDEO SEEKING. It is a bit hackish, but there are worse things.

BTW, this has nothing to do with Open-DML. It works just as well with old AVIs.

I think you just answered your own question.

Really folks, just use Matroska or MP4 if you are using AAC. Preferably Matroska, but as long as you're not doing something this retarded.

LOL! The container war is getting worse. Now people are starting swearing at each other.

My dramaaddict side tells me this thread is going to be great

I think I'll side with Christian and Pamel.

My first experience with Matroska was a disappointment (I couldn't get subtitles to work). Nevertheless I was very pleased at how easy it was to play Matroska files. I only had to register the MatroskaSplitter, and boom it works (I didn't even need to reboot).

I resisted Matroska for a long time because I didn't think it was useful for anything I wanted to do, but now I'm thinking of all the new possibilities which the format unleashes. Just being able to use VBR MP3 without sync problems is a major plus.

I still use AVI for 99% of my video backups, so I don't want to see it die just yet. But I think there's no reason to continue hacking stuff into the AVI format, when Matroska supports such things without any hacks or tricks.

Hack the AVI! Push it to the limits but don't publish your work for all l33ts who are going to use it for archiving!

Why even use Matroska? I'm sure it's a wonderful format, but if you have MPEG-4 audio (AAC) and MPEG-4 video (divx, 3ivx, xvid, whatever), wouldn't the logical step be to put it in an MP4 container? If you want mp3 + MPEG-4 video use Matroska as that's not going to be a MPEG-4 complaint stream.

Even then I don't know why people bothered re-inventing the wheel with Matroska as .mov supports more than anybody will ever need and the spec is freely open and available for anyone who cares to read it at http://developer.apple.com/documentation/q...QTFF/index.html and already has support in most video/audio tools, and is backed by a major company, and is more efficient than most other containers...I mean if it's good enough for the MPEG-4 consortium it's damn well good enough for me.

AVI is so broken even MS dropped it, the VBR mp3 inside avi was a terrible hack, and I won't even mention multiple sound tracks. I'm sure multichannel audio shoehorned into .avi will be the next big thing...

Read the AVI specs and then study some AVI files in a hex editor before writing more nonsense like this After that, find out which problems with AVI were only caused by M$'s b0rked filter and player. :x There is a chance that you write more FUD, and even worse, that someone could believe a single word you write about AVI....

That you consider multiple streams a hack (and even worse than VBR) shows that you also consider WMP a player, that you have never looked at the AVI specs, or have gained any knowledge about AVI from any other source.

Congratulations! Brainwash completed successfully

Yeah. He obviously does not know that I have been able to mux DTS into AVI for quite some months already

Maybe we should drop Avi, Matroska and OGM and switch to MPEG-4 Systems. Even spec compliant subtitles are possible nowadays(http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63067).

well you can only store specific types of content in mp4 if you want to stay spec compliant!

in matroska for example you can also store vorbis, rv9... which isnt possible in mp4

No one needs OGM, that is true, but what is wrong with the subtitle specs for AVI and MKV?

I mean that MPEG-4 provides everything which is currently being hacked into avi etc. You can even create DVD like menus in MPEG-4 Systems and it's currently available. The only thing that is currently missing is a nice gui which would allow graphical authoring of MPEG-4 Systems.

Lets continue talking about AAC in AVI which is the topic afterall.

K It seems to work now, even with the M$ AVI Splitter

So the only problem is that VirtualDubMod, MPlayer, VLC etc. don't support it?

Cyrius has already announced that VDM maybe never will support it. We need to brainwash him.
I really wonder why, because it is really exactly the same VBR hack as for MP3, so it can't be hard to support it.

Not yet. MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

(ph34r my evil laughter)

My God, what is this sick sick obsession with turning AVI into this frankenstein of a container format when it should clearly have been put to death years ago. Do you have some sort of emotional attachment to it from years of watching postage stamp sized cinepak video coupled together with 11khz 8 bit audio (which admit it, that's what AVI was designed for) that you just can't let go?