I was wondering, how many free programs are there that offer legal free full mp3 encoding?

MusicMatch, obviously.

And RealPlayer / RealJukeBox / RealOne have a free download that adds a full mp3 encoder. (Although I'm not sure of the quality.)

But what else? Are there any other programs that offer one?

It's not really all that relevant, but I was curious.


Then how about free programs that offer a free demo mp3 encoder that can be 'registry hacked' to disable the demo / limited nature? (By 'hacking' I mean only changing registry entries, such as changing 'demo=yes' to 'demo=no' or such. No file changes or tricks or warez keys, etc.)


What about mp3pro?

The only free one I know of is the official RCA/Thompson/etc. demo which tops out at 64kbps

LAME!!!

IIRC, all MP3 encoders are bound by patents held by FhG/Thompson. This means that you are supposed to pay licensing fees to use them. The company that makes MusicMatch as well as other companies pay those licensing fees for their products while offering their product for free (ex...MusicMatch has both a free version and a "full" version with extra features - this helps to offset the cost to them.) If I'm correct, many large companies pay a large lump sum to include an MP3 encoder with their products. Same thing goes with MP3Pro.

Also, registry hacking is just what the name implies - hacking. It's no better than cracks or obtaining a serial number when it comes to the legality of the matter. I don't think that this issue can be discussed on this board.

Hope this helps.....

Sure it does - however the term hacking does not mean what you think it means. Hacking is not a malicious term! It simply means coding or editing other people's code.

"hacking" the registry is not something wrong at all. The registry is a tool designed to be used. Why else would they include a "regedit" program in Windows?

Why else would anyone offer a decompiler or hex editor ?

The registry values are a programmer's creation ... as well as an exe file is so hacking registry values is as illegal as hacking an exe file to remove a cd check etc.

Uhm....no.

Show me a law stating that it is illegal to edit the configuration settings for a program. This is hardly reverse engineering or hex editing a program! Programs optionally look to the registry for configuration... how can you say that confuring something is illegal? They are usually saved in plain text strings for chrissake!

Circumventing copyright is illegal, and in the US at least, circumventing copy protection is as well. If by editing registry settings you are doing this, then yes, I agree with you. But using regedit.exe (provided by MICROSOFT for YOUR USE) to change settings is not inherently wrong.

erm ... that's what hyung was referring to in the initial posting ... edit a reg key to prolong the demo validity or even make a full version out of the demo ...

It surely is not illegal to change reg settings as long as you just configure software (which in most cases can be done by setting the program options from the frontend) but it surely is illegal to edit reg settings to get something you did not pay for because these reg settings exist to protect the author's or programmer's copyright ... see the difference ? Anyway, no serious coder will set protection options into the windows registry in plain text due to the fact that a reg editor is embedded into windows itself.

BTW: M$ will definitely refuse Windows support if you use some frontend to enhance Windows' performance/security like e.g. X-Setup or XPAntiSpy (which I use myself) and are stupid enough to tell them ...

No, it means that you must pay a license fee for distributing them. There are no content fees for MP3, so you can perfectly legal download the source code to an MP3 encoder and compile it, without ever paying anyone anything.

Anyway, iTunes offers free MP3 and AAC encoding for Mac & Windows. QuickTime offers free AAC encoding as well, it's just that no-one has written a free interface for Windows. The reason Apple can do this is that they already max out the license fee, and they believe they make up for it selling iPods and Macs.

I guess that's legal.

However, when you install a shareware program, you are agreeing to the license that comes with it. And this normally says that you should stop using it after the evaluation period ends, or something to that effect. So when you edit the registry to extend the evaluation period and continue using the program, you're violating the license agreement.

1) Yes, I obviously know LAME exists. That's why I stressed *legal* mp3 encoders. And although the source for lame might be legal, the binaries aren't. Fhg just doesn't really care is all.

2) Yes I know fhg mp3 encoders are included in a lot of programs, but most of those programs aren't free. They either cost money or are either bundled with a piece of hardware. Neither of which can be considered free.

3) Yes I know musicmatch etc. have a free & paid version. But the free version still has a fully functioning mp3 endoder. All for free. As does Real player / jukebox. The paid version of MMJB adds mp3pro and a bunch of other junk, but the mp3 encoder is free even in the free version. (And I think Winamp5 will do free mp3 encoding, right? I haven't tested it since it's still in beta.)

4a) The traditional term 'hacking' does not mean what the media makes it into today. I used the old style term (because I'm old, I guess). Under that definition, even modifying a .ini or .config file to effect settings that can't be done via the GUI fall into the term 'hacking'. (The term 'hacking' changed about the time of the Morris internet worm. Most of you probably don't even remember that.)

4b) Even windows 9x/XP have a lot of options and config items that can only be set via the registry and can't be done through the GUI. (That's kind of one of the reasons TweakUI came about.)

5) I specifically excluded anything illegal. Such as using warez keys etc.

6) I specifically excluded anything about modifying *their* files (file patching etc.) I limited it solely to modifications of your computer (ie: such as the registry.) Modifying your stuff is legal.

7a) Shareware licenses.... Who said anything about shareware? I said free. Shareware can afford to give full mp3 encoders. Free stuff is what usually includes limited versions of mp3 encoders. (Actually, as a side note I've noticed some cheapie programs in the stores that only offer demo mp3 encoders. The poor suckers who buy that don't realize they are only getting 20-50 mp3 encodes.)

7b) And tricking shareware into the full registered version isn't what I was asking about. (That would fall under warez keys etc.) Again, I said free and I meant free.

8) The odds are good that most programmers aren't going to 'accidently' make something as obvious as "demo=no" to enable full encoding. But they might. And it might not be it accidently, either. Still, it is often surprising how simple registry changes can enable / disable features of programs.



Incidentally, the whole reason I even mentioned the part about registry changes were because of WinMedia player 9 and I've heard there are reg changes that can enable full quality mp3 encoding. (I don't have Wmp9 installed and refuse to do so, so I haven't tested it.)


And I still haven't heard anybody speak up about mp3pro.... I realize it's almost dead, but surely some program has shown at least a little interest in the format. (I heard that thompson's own mp3pro flash players don't even include a mp3pro encoder! Kinda says something about the format!)

Although I am not a lawyer, I would say that Lame binaries are less illegal than anything involving registry hacking.

HA is paranoid about having illegal content, but we keep binaries available on this site. Also, it seems strange that sources are legal, but binaries aren't. At any rate, you could just very easily download a free compiler, and make your own binary (thus you aren't actually distributing binaries, which is sometimes the source of contention).

You'll have to explain to me why you think that Lame binaries are illegal.

The Windows version of iTunes doesn't cost money, and it isn't bundled with any hardware. You can download it from Apple's website and rip away


Because they include patented algorithms, so you need a patent license to distribute binaries.

Registry hacking is piracy.
Lame binary is patent licensing infringement.

Both are illegal, in different aspects.



There seems to be a big misunderstanding in this aspect here.

Getting the sources and compiling them yourself makes the binary no more legal than a downloaded one.

The fact is that sources can be distributed due to a legal loophole, that allow a project to infringe patents as long as it is for research purposes.

So, even if you download the sources and compile them yourself, you still should only use this binary for testing and development, and NOT for archiving. For archiving purposes, you should buy a license.



Because the binary providers don't pay license fees to Thomson

Regards;

Roberto.

There are some streaming services that do use mp3pro.. And since it isn't built for high-bitrate high-quality but rather average-quality lower-bitrate compression, it isn't that atractive for most users, which doesn't really mean it's dead..

And I don't think there are a lot (if any) free mp3pro encoders... Doesn't musicmatch do it?

(I might be very wrong )

Well, mp3pro is kind of is dead because even RCA/Thompson aren't supporting it!

Sure, there are a *few* cases of it being used for streaming, and both MusicMatch and Nero include it in the paid (not free) versions. And the free limited official demo encoder / player. But that seems to be about it. (The official demo is the only one that I know of that is free, but it's rather limited, as is the program itself.)

A month ago I was looking around for a cheap mp3 flash player to give as a gift. I figured mp3pro would be better than WMA so I hunted locally for one that supported it.

I found the RCA line of players that support playing of mp3pro, but they don't provide any way of encoding into it. Now, here's a company who helped develop the mp3pro format (or at least have patents involved), and they make a line of players that can play it, but they don't give the user any way to encode into that format. Instead, they tell the user to go out and *buy* Musicmatch Plus.

They do give a free mp3 and WMA encoder (by bundling the free MusicMatch with the player) but if you want mp3pro you have to pay extra money for a third party encoder. The manual & web site don't even bother mentioning the official limited free version of the encoder / player. Instead they tell you to buy somebody else's encoder.

When the developers themselves don't even support encoding into their own format, you can't really say that a format is 'alive' any more.

Like all things patent-related, this is a legal gray area. Even on the LAME Technical FAQ:
This implies that there is at least one circumstance when a Lame binary is not illegal.

This brings up a more philisophical question: If a patent has been infringed, and the patent holder doesn't care, has a law been broken?

In any event, can't LAME be made legal if one negotiates a license from Thompson?

Nope. Only if the developer is collecting license fees. People can patent things and still license them for free.

But - guess what - Thomson Multimedia is collecting license fees.
http://www.mp3licensing.com/royalty/index.html



Well, Lame is legal in MediaCenter - the developer paid the licensing fees for Thomson.

But no, Lame can't be made legal, because the licensing isn't done on a one-time fee for encoding. So, you would need to pay the license (U$ 2,50) every time someone downloaded Lame :/

But, in theory, you could license your copy of lame for $2.50 - $5.00 from Fraunhoffer, thus making your copy legal, no?

Yes. It is possible that an end-user can legally use Lame if he bought a product including Lame, and the company selling this product has paid royalties to Thomson MM.
Several commercial products are using Lame in a perfectly legal way, by paying royalties for the use of the technology. This way they are saving money on the licencing of the technology implementation (licensing Lame is free, while licensing FhG is not free at all).

Does this mean, if you own a Nero license including unlimited mp3 encoding, it's perfectly legal to use lame plugin for nero as well for encoding? But if you want to encode using lame outside of nero you theoretically need to buy a license?

Well, the problem is that the royalties rate is per encoder unit.

You also have to consider that Thomson MM does not provide licenses to end users, but only to software/hardware manufacturers.

Well, not exactly. Some source code can not infringe a patent (it could however infringe a copyright). A binary can infringe a patent.

Source code itself is only a description of a process (that could be patended), in the same way as a patent text is a description of a process.
The good thing is that in many countries this fall under the "freedom of speech".

Are you sure? I thought the full mp3 encoder for RealJukebox was only in the paid plus version?

Not that it really matters, I guess. Probably not too many people still using that old thing.

If it is freely available for download, then it might be an interesting place to start for somebody wanting to use a legal mp3 encoder with some other program.

Or maybe make a legal free mp3 encoder from it for WinAmp5, since only the paid version includes LAME. (That'd be kind of amusing... Using their encoder legally in their competitor's program.) Although I guess you could probably do something similar with MusicMatch's free encoder. Just a matter of writing a wrapper for it.

Just to warn an eventual incautious: RealJukebox uses Xing as encoder. Be careful...

Aren't there places in the world where the MP3 patents don't apply? Like in areas where software patents are not allowed yet?

Brazil :B

The regular version of RealJukebox came only with a limited encoder.

But, you could go to the web page:

http://proforma.real.com/real/jukebox/320k...k_register.html

(This was originally linked from their Jukebox area, which has pretty much disappeared since RJ has been discontinued and replaced by RealOne. I don't know if RealOne has a similar link / page since I don't use that program.)

Which sent you to another web page which auto downloaded an "autoupdate" command to the Real program.

That in turn caused Real to download the file:

http://207.188.7.150/autoupgrade/RealPlaye...0_1_0_2_245.rup

(There might be a newer version, of course.)

That is packaged in Real's container format and needs to be uncompressed / unpacked before it can be used.

Right off hand I don't have the specs for the Real container format handy. I've got them somewhere. They are probably still on Real's site or on the open source Helix site.

However, as was stated by rjamorim, it is Xing's encoder, so it's not really worth using.


It's a shame that HydrogenAudio doesn't have a list of links pointing to all the official specs for all the audio & video formats, and for all the container formats. Sure would be useful. (And in some cases, links pointing to unofficial corrected specs, for cases such as Microsoft not documenting the asf correctly / completely.)



As a side note about legal encoders...

WinAmp 5rc8 is including the LAME dll. They use a wrapper DLL to make it work with WinAmp's cd ripper.

mp3 encoding is a paid feature for WinAmp 5 and not available in the free version.

However, that free / paid control is in the wrapper, not the LAME dll, which is distributed regardless of the paid status. So they are, in effect, distributing a fully functional mp3 encoder with a known interface.

So technically, if you have WinAmp 5 installed, you should be able to legally use the LAME dll distributed with WinAmp5. Just tell your 3rd party program where that particular version of LAME is at.

(Also, somebody is likely to write their own mp3 encoder wrapper for WinAmp5, giving easier access to things like -APS and such.)

Also, WinAmp's NSV video format tool kit also distributes the LAME encoder binary. If they are doing that in the US, then apparently they (and their AOL masters) feel they are covered legally. So you might be able to use that legally. Again, just point your program to that lame dll.

You could do the same with the encoder in MusicMatch or Nero or... Your own 3rd party program could use those encoders. You wouldn't have to actually use MusicMatch etc., just have it installed so the codec could be used. All you need is a wrapper for it.

I wonder if MusicMatch's mp3Pro encoder is fully functional. Is the unregistered / un-paid demo nature of it in the encoder itself or in musicmatch? If it's in MusicMatch then you could use the encoder with no problems. You'd just need a wrapper.

Of course, I'm not a programmer so I can't do things like that.


And to be entirely honest.... I don't really care whether my mp3 encoder is legal or not, so I go ahead and use LAME. This whole discussion was just out of curiosity of how many free legal encoders there are.

What's wrong with microsoft's specification of ASF? http://download.microsoft.com/download/win...ation_v.1.0.exe

I haven't read it myself, much less tried to program with it.

But over the past couple of years, from what I've read on the various stream downloader sites and programs that do it and work with the format, supposedly the specs was rather inaccurate and incomplete. And the streaming MMS protocol wasn't documented at all.

As I said, I haven't checked into, but since I've heard that several times from several places, I've assumed it was true.

It is possible that Microsoft has improved the specs since then. Perhaps when they released WMP 9 they also took the oportunity to release more accurate specs to go with it.

heh .. didn't really read the thread word for word, but wanted to mention iTunes and, as someone else mentioned, WA5