Besides the whole thing with Iriver getting mine and other people's hopes up for a possiblity in supporting Ogg Vorbis as an audio format, what is going on with the format itsself these days? Are there plans for a 1.0 release of the encoder any time soon or is this just wishful thinking? I can understand how a company would not want to invest in supporting software still in a pre-release state and not to rush the developers of vorbis- but is there a schedule at all as to the progress being made?

-Jeffrey

I dunno, but I wish them the best of luck with Emmett Failure Plant for a President ;0
(Disclaimer, if you don't know what I am talking about, you probably don't know about Emmett screwing over many people all over the place.)

Hummm, I'm curious. (As usual )

Could you post some links? Or tell us some stories?

Thanks.

He started/killed sites in which he stold work from many people, and screwed over many people. Hell, he even owes me 100$ but I am never getting that.
He's had people code stuff for him, promising returns. A friend of mine got a pack of cigarettes for weeks of work... Many people in the channel I frequent (#slashdot on OPN) have been touched by his glory, heh... He used to go there when he was a slashdot writer, before he changed over his job focus from a writer to a Mac Freak to a unix admin in a matter of a month..

I just fear for Ogg Vorbis. I'd never trust Emmett to anything. Anyone thats delt with him at LW expo's knows also.

...

If you are talking about the same Emmett, it's scary. However, if it is the same person things could have changed during time. And, God forbid, if there is any truth in what you are saying and the Ogg team will be screwed, the project is still open source.

The decoder is final. The encoder is still being tweaked.
It has the same functionality as MP3 now. (LAME is still being tweaked and tuned.)
After 1.0 you can look forward to peeling capabilities. The decoder isn't pre-release. It's final, unless any bugs are found, but since there's so many people using it, bugs would most likely have been found now.

Well, it can be final, but still RC3 is displayed everywhere in the decoder.

That is enough to scare the hardware player manufacturers.

sorry but the decoder is not final. some days ago i read in the mailing lists that the current RC3 decoder is NOT going to support the newer encoders!

Please point out the message. I am sure that you misunderstood something.

--
GCP

Pattara Kiatisevi, 2nd May

i think i understood it the way it was intended

...will break this RC3 decoder...

Their decoder doesn't completely implement Vorbis, just enough to play RC3 files.

--
GCP

ok

http://www.xiph.org/ogg/vorbis/download.html :



CU

Dominic

So is RC3 also be able to play post 1.0 encodes?
Even when wavelets are implemented?

Depends on what you consider 'post' 1.0. Every Vorbis I
file will be playable by RC3. That doesn't rule out there
comes a Vorbis II someday.



Wavelets are not a feature of Vorbis I AFAIK.

--
GCP

I thought so.

I should be more optimistic sometimes :-)

Oh no, that sounds quite bad. Especially after my recent stock market losses I should've learnt not to trust these small-sweet-innovative companies. Maybe that's the reason for the logo and the name: the fish, for the fishy company. Anyway we've waited long enough from RC2 to RC3 and the results were good. Let's hope the case for RC4 would be the same.

BTW, could someone elaborate on how Xiph was founded and how Mr. Emmett made it to CEOship? and what each of these guys original profession is? of course if anyone out there knows...
--Alp

Well, I was at #slashdot doing some investigations..
I'd say some people are a bit dissapointed at him, because there was an open source project "Time City", organized by Emmett.
The project failed.

I don't see the same thing happening with Xiph. Although Emmett is the CEO, I believe Monty has still the final word about things. And according to people, Emmett had good intentions in principle, but those just didn't work out with "Time City" project.

About how Emmett got his CEO title.. Not sure If Monty was completely serious, but I remember him saying that Emmett was practically the only guy voluenteering.

First one:

NO! I said that the Ogg On A Chip project based their work on the ivdev software from Fullplay that is known to have range representation problems and that for that reason, ivdev will likely break on newer streams. This is a problem only with software derived from ivdev, and this is why we're warning people it's not safe to use!

All of *OUR* decoder software, and all the software we've approved will work with all future Vorbis I streams. All of them. Period. The decoder has been finished since June 2001.

Don't blame us for substandard software written by other people that they seem to have no interest in fixing (and no interest in warning potential users of its shortcomings)

So, a summary in the CLEAREST POSSIBLE WORDS:

"Ivdev and all derived software do *not* satisfactorily implement the Vorbis spec and are *not* approved by xiph.org to wear the Vorbis label specifically because they *will eventually break*."

If you want to use this code anyway, be my guest. I've explained many times what's wrong with it. When it breaks, it's not our problem or our responsibility.

Monty

Actually, screw it. I don't have much interest arguing with a thread of He-Said,-She-Said'. You sound like a bunch of bored old women!

Go hack on something useful... or just keep rumormongering. I don't particularly care, but I won't be visiting this thread any further. Start a new one if you have something substantive to offer and want to get my attention.

"Argue not with fools lest you be mistaken for one."

Hmm, seems that now Monty got upset..

Anyway, according to Monty he has known Emmett for some time and doesn't consider him "a failure".

I agree that it's unfair to proclaim a person a "failure" after some failed open source game project. Also not all people related to the "Time City" -project share the same opinions as meff.

When I read this thread I asked about it in #vorbis and I was told I was already the 3rd person asking in the course of a few hours.

I guess they are getting annoyed by it - and probably rightly so.

--
GCP

Funny monty ran away very quickly..

I dunno about what games Emmett is fucking around with on monty, but I know just about evevyone I've ever talk to that has been involved with a project of his (including me admining a box for him) usually got screwed over. He doesn't exactly have the best reputation, I also remember such great quotes as "emmett@linux.com -- why the fuck do you think I have this? BECAUSE I KNOW LINUX DIPSHIT, see?!?" etcc.. which can be verified by anyone in the channel

I've never seen a man with a bigger ego than him, or a bigger liar.

Well meff, you seem very upset too. You really should provide some concrete evidence before calling the man a liar.

Don't know about this ego thing. I haven't noticed any "too big ego " -issues by him at #vorbis. He doesn't advertize that he's the CEO of Xiph.

And please watch your language...

My evidence isn't concrete, but I take the word of mouth from more than 5 or 10 people as pretty substancial relating to those who have worked with him..
He may be a bit different now, but the man had a nice chunk of ego a year ago.

Sorry about the language that wasn't his ..

BTW, me and JohnV talked and it seems he's agreeing to pay me my money again.. well, i've heard this before, we'll see if it happens.

Sorry, but this just doesn't cut it. You are veering on slander without proof to back up your claims. Doesn't put your credibility in too good a light. You know, rumours and the internet. About as tangible as air, but they can have an impact :-/

My advice, let it go. This sounds more like an "old" personal issue between you and Emmett than something that has relevance now. Especially when concerning Xiph, since we have no influence regarding that.

Otherwise you can always say "told you so" if you were right later down the line.

I don't know you, I don't know Emmett. I refuse to judge a person on something another says without viable proof. In the meantime I trust Monty's/Jack's decision.

... quite strange discussion here.
I can't understand what means "getting something" to play with an open source project.
I don't think that someone involved into the LAME project was payed to develop something... don't you ??

Yeah, I'll drop it..

But I know what I know, and if its still true, I sure hope its not.
"The Internet and Lies" Is BS, The internet was Emmett's job once, and he made a runaround messing with many people. Slander? Not if you have 10 people that have worked directly with him give speak of what he has done, and as far as the net and promises, sure its the internet, but anyone not going out to screw you wouldn't make one they couldn't keep if it was business related. You can't say everything on IRC that is said in the subject of a business operation isn't substancial, if the business is internet ran.

"Especially when concerning Xiph" ...

This concerns Xiph because I am scared of what Emmett could do to them.. Me and people I know haven't had the best of luck, and are looking at Xiph and kinda worrying of the fate.. I hope it stays okay--I love Ogg Vorbis and I use it as my main encoding format..

Emmett stopped by on my channel, and besides the normal people being pissed (the ones that got screwed) it was okay, he talked about what he is doing soon for Xiph, some meetings are in plan and it seems to be going forward.. If this is what will clear his name, good.. I hope so.

I wish him the best of luck.


I want Ogg Vorbis to succeed. If I find something in that path, I feel its my job to let people know, and since I have brought this up, alot of things have happened, and alot of discussion between people has started about this issue, because it *is* known by quite a bit of people.
We'll see what happens.

But next time take it up personally/privately with those who CAN do do something about it, first. Jack/Monty. And get somebody to back you up if they want proof. Goes for everything in life.

Here it's (just) a storm in a teacup. But a storm that might cause Emmett and Xiph some distress. And we don't want that, do we?

Yeah, we'll se what happens. Not much else to do at present.

Wow did this thread get mangled! The main subject was hardware implementation and concerns of file incompatibility. It is more that understandable that a product manufacturer not want to offer OGG when changes to the bitstream will render the decoder useless. About 1/3 of the wat through this thread someone posted that the bitstream was from mid 2000 and all future decoders would support back to that date. This is backwards of the concern for decoding. The worry is future changes would require a new decoder.

They won't, please reread the thread

I'll quote xiphmont:

All of *OUR* decoder software, and all the software we've approved will work with all future Vorbis I streams. All of them. Period. The decoder has been finished since June 2001.

--
GCP

hey, why am i blamed and shouted at for several times. I only misunderstood a word, thats all. Sorry for that...:confused:

Relax. Nobody's out to get you. Monty was just giving a blunt no-nonsense answer. It's not personal. I guess clarity on the decoder-issue has some importance and by being so blunt I think he made that pretty clear.

Besides, when having the main responsibility for Ogg Vorbis it's pretty important that you're not being misquoted.

Get out, enjoy the summer sun. Drink Pinà Coladas, listen to Jimmy Buffet and do come again

i don't like alcohol but i will relax as i have no school tomorrow

I'll do you a deal Benjamin,you relax and I'll have the alcohol *




*warning,dont drink alcohol kids,its bad for you

good deal

Hey Benjamin,

could you please convince Monty/... to put a nice big link to your 'hardware implementation' petition on the cover off vorbis.com? I know, maybe it isn't the perfect moment (regarding this latest discussion)...

Still, I think there should be continuous input -and output! (I'm waiting for Audiotron-support, but the only thing they seem to be working on is WMA streaming :mad: )

Anyway, maybe sticky thread in Ogg Vorbis forum wouldn't harm?
Go Newbies Go!!

Regards,
eph

edit: hey, I mean _this_ Vorbis forum, moderators

Throughout this thread there has never been produced any kind of concrete verifyable evidence for the accusations made. It consists of nothing but hearsay and slander.

The moderators want to make it clear that this is definetely not acceptable on this board. In fact, we deeply regret this thread has gone on as long as it has, when it should have died instantly.

In the future, similar transgressions of forum policy will be deleted on-sight.

(Thread closed)