Hi Guys,

I would like to share this Guide here. Hope it will be useful.



DVD to WMV9 with WMA9 Professional 5.1 Multichannel Audio

I followed this guide and backed up 8 of my DVDs so far and I am very pleased with the results.



Yours,
McoreD

Edit: 10/01/2004
Replaced the PDF with a Web Based Tutorial.
Edit: 12/01/2004
Link Updated
Edit: 29/01/2004
Link Updated
Edit: 23/03/2004
Link Updated
Edit: 12/08/2004
Link Updated

The WMV9 codec and the WMA9Pro codec have greatly improved on there predecesors. They are now relatively viable solutions. WMV9 particulrly excels at low bitrate video encoding (although I haven't compared it to the XviD 1.0 beta's). RealVideo has also made some significant steps forward.

192 kbps isn't much for 5.1 channel sound. You should consider using higher bitrate and quality vbr modes of wma9 pro.

192kbit WMA9Pro gives already a really nice sound for 5.1.

That's your opinion.

Both WMV9 and WMA9Pro are tweaked for low bitrates (particularly the video, I don't think the audio could beat HE AAC), but I agree a bitrate of around the 256 mark would be better. Still, If you want a whole movie with 5.1 Surround on 1 CD, it might be acceptable depending on how good your ears are. I certainly wouldn't go any lower.

That video resolution is also very high for such a low bitrate. I would probably reduce it considerably (i.e. 512x***).

Wma 9 can't beat anything at low bitrates. (except real audio and lc aac)

http://audio.ciara.us/test/64test/results.html

The illustrated test results are for WMA Standard (2 channels), and not WMA Professional (5.1), which is what was being discussed initially. I'm not saying WMAPro is necessarily any better than WMAStd, just that it's a different codec.

Kl33per: "I don't think the audio could beat HE AAC"
You can't encode HE AAC at bitrates over 96 using commonly available tools. It is also impossible to encode wma pro at such low bitrates.

Ps. I'm currently running a test encode. Currently it looks like 731 Kb/s isn't enough even for 704*288.

I finished my little test. It took only 2 hours to encode 4 minute clip using my Pentium 3 500 MHz. I set the bitrate to 731 like in the screen shot which is posted earlier into this thread. Here is a nice sample image of my encoded video. It has the original picture above the encoded picture. To be honest I must admit that the clip looks better when it's being played instead of watching still images. To be scientifical enough, here is my Avisynth script which I used to get the following image.

Bitrates above 96kb/s can be used for multichannel HE AAC files.


Sorry, I wasn't aware of this limitation. I don't use WMA9Pro (or Std. for that matter).


WAM9Pro can also do 2 channel, it's not limited to 5.1.


No, in this test WMA9Std, Real, and QT AAC (LC AAC) are tied.

That is why I put the comment in the brackets. Wma std is only a little bit better on average but the difference is too low to make any conclusions.

~*McoreD*~

great guide!
as you seem to support wm9 so much, i wanted to ask you if you are somehow affiliated with microsoft?

Yes. The guide is pretty good but it should tell more about avs script generation or refer to Gordian Knot or something similar.

That is not necessary true. WM9 is indeed a very good codec and is the only that gives nice quality for 1CD-rips (IMHO). Although I do not recommend using 5.1 sound for 1CD-rips.

Have you tried lowering resolution or/and Real 9?

Real 9

I have never seen only 1 real video clip without that horrible pastel filtering.
Image HAS NO dynamics.
sorry... but it's so evident.

Except for very low bitrate, IMHO XviD 1.0 has a very positive detail/artifact ratio.

Just another random comment:

There's WMV9 and WMV9Pro. However you can't explicitely choose between the two. I don't know the exact criteria to make Windows Media Encoder chose it, but all my full PAL (720x576) 1.2mbit 2-pass VBR encodes use WMV9Pro instead of WMV9. While some low bitrate tests at 600-700kbit just used WMV9. What the difference between the two is? Didn't get a MS representative to answer me that one.

thats my opinion too


where do you read that?

Hi all,

@Bond,

Thank you for the nice comment.
I am part of MicrosoftUserNetwork. It is an independent User Organization.

@Latexxx,

Bud, you would do a better work using a codec more suited to ancient hardware, like WMV7 or WMV8.
Not surprised with your encoding times dude; my first WMV9 rip was done in a Pentium II 400, and it took 26 hours for me to finish it.
I used WMV8 in a Pentium 4 3GHz and it took only 2 and half hours to finish encoding.
But I would rather like to spend 4 more extra hours to encode to WMV9 for my psychological satisfaction.


I have updated the AviSynth Script generated part. The tutorial is now in a Web Based format with screenshots. I made a small tool which could do the basic AviSynth Script generation for WME9, so I hope that sections wouldn’t be much of a problem now.

@Liquid_Predator,
Yes mate, WM9 is the only that gave nice quality for 1CD-rips for me too; I repeat: WMV and WMA are both low bitrate optimized codecs, so they are ideal for this situation.
That’s the sole reason why I like WM and I personally like to have Windows Media Player as the only installed Media Player + I like it to play its native codec Windows Media Audio/Video.

@Tripwire,
That’s very true. I had the same experience. WME picks Windows Media Video 9 Professional at somewhere around more than 1400 kbps for Video. That surprised me, since there is no option anywhere to choose that codec. May be that’s the codec which is optimized for high bitrates, (while Windows Media Video 9 is optimized for lower bit rates).


Well, I have updates the Guide to a Web Based one, please feel free to reply any more questions/comments. Thank you,

Yours,
McoreD

http://www.microsoftusernetwork.com/corporate/index.htm

hm sounds wierd


i suppose you know what you are doing

Why?
What is weird into a group of people trying to estabilishing a dialogue with MS instead of bashing it all of the time?
MS Windows Media is a nice tech and MS newsgroups are usually a nice place where to discuss it.
So, it seems natural to me that people who likes MS tech creates some web sites similar to the dozens of pro other tech ones...

well at least for me it sounds wierd, cause i am not the type of person who pushes for free a proprieatary codec (or other proprieatary software), helping a company to earn more money...
not to speak about m$'s business policies, i cant imagine anyone not getting paid by m$ or an organisation related to them to support this company (or even fighting "to help Microsoft to maintain and improve its position as world leader as software producer" for free damn if this is not wierd than i dont know anything else that is wierd )

but thats only my opinion, doesnt mean that they dont exist

if someone supports m$ because of idealism i have nothing against it, altough i would call this behaviour "wierd"

Well, there are many others proprietary standards with so many supporters...
The most shiny example is Apple... Weird enough, no one says they are weird...

apple is not a standard

in contrary to m$ apple supports/pushes open standards, like aac, whereas m$ long time ago stopped to further develop their open standard mpeg-4 video codec and decided to develop an own closed spec proprieatary format, called windows media, which is btw not better than good mpeg-4 implementations

thats what makes m$'s business policy different from the ones of other companies, ie apples

Guys,

I am not worried about any open or closed formats -- al least not yet.
All I need is to encode the DVD the to Windows Media Video, so that I can play it in Windows Media Player. All my needs are satisfied and I have no restrictions in any form, during that procedure and that's why I was pleased to share my experience here.

Bond, you can call me "weird" then.

Honestly, I am not paid by Microsoft. I am just a WM enthusiastic just like all of you. I have seen plenty guides written for DVD > DivX, so I thought I might try something different with 5.1 Audio and continued developing the DVD > WMV9 Guide (at Doom9, you know that Bond don't you mate?).

So why is this all criticism or sarcasm or whatever you call it -- I dunno.

sorry i didnt mean to critice or so, just wondered...

but if you like wm, i (of course) have nothing against it

simply enjoy what you like best

Thank you bond for the concluding post

Now for others, please enjoy what I have shared here or just click Back and rest in peace.

McoreD

Hehe. Video moderators trying to discuss audio...

Yes, you can encode WMA Pro at low bitrates. Just use VBR quality 10.

Hey! We are audio/video moderators.

McoreD,
Your wmv9 guide is pretty complete now but I believe that it would be even better if you would put the whole guide into one page. It would also be nice if you would remove the information which is proven to be false. (like wma being 3 times better than mp3 at same bitrate http://membres.lycos.fr/guruboolez/AUDIO/t...al_results.html Hey! Lame abr 128 won wma9 abr 128)

Thank you Latexxx,

Sure I will do those modifications. About that "wma being 3 times better than mp3 at same bitrate", I really forgot to remove it before publishing.

The audio in the title alone isn't helping much

Someone posts a nice guide for everyone and all people can do is bash him. Give him a break!

McoreD, ignore all the OGGies here. If you post anything that does not proclaim that ogg vorbis will bring 1000 years of peace on earth, you will get flamed here. Especially if you do anything involving WMA.

Thanks for the guide but your link is broken. How can we obtain your guide now?

Hi there,

I was wondering where it said WMA sounded 2-3 times better than MP3. Later I saw it in the Introduction\Why Windows Media?.
The article "Why Windows Media" was originally written by Zarax.
Therefore, unfortunately I can't do much about it. Home I removed it saying 2-3 times better because I myself believe it doesn't go upto 3 times better (may at 9kbps or lower). Definetely it is hard tell when the bit rate is more than 192 Kbps in both MP3 and WMA9.

Sorry ezra2323, I forgot to update the link. It is working now.

I could have made it in one page. Because I am in dialup, I was thinking about dialup people like me.



McoreD

hmm... something been bothering me for a while now. it was said in this thread and over at Doom9 that WM9Series are optimized for low bitrates. since when? if it is then why is T2 and several other moview were release in that format? I mean it it's not optimized for high bitrates how come T2 DVD2 had the whole movie and extras and no probs fitting both? and it ain't no Dual Layer or some other tweak like that.

what's going on?

The product Dr. DivX is a similar all-in-one product that makes fitting a whole DVD movie onto a CD with great video and audio. I have been having great results with the latest version, 1.0.4.

I am tempted to remove this post... Go to doom9.org learn how to get even more quality using Xvid or more control using Divx + GordianKnot.

i would prefer nero digital (recode2) over dr.divx would prefer over wmencoder


i think you can use wmv9 for all bitrates but on all bitrates it has competitors that can bring better quality (imho)

vp6 or rv9/10 for low bitrates
xvid (divx5) on medium (1cd) bitrates
xvid, 3ivx, divx5, nero digital on high bitrates

Mcore, thank you for this nice guide, I'll try it as soon as I get some time.

Thanks ~*McoreD*~ for updating what I had on this board. That info was quite old.

I gotta admit, WMV9 and WMA9Pro make one killer combination. I usually encode my movies using 128kbit 5.1channel 16bit WM9Pro audio and 700kbps WMV9 Video (2-Pass VBR of course).

As for lowering the resolution, why would you do something like that? I prefer to keep the 720x??? resolution and keep it the way the original was.

rjamorim does have a point, though. Everyone so far says that you need a high bitrate for audio. I can understand this for music files, but it's a movie. There will probably be some silence and "soft" spots. Why would you need high bitrate for this? Use VBR.

..and ~*McoreD*~, there is a flaw in the script. When you do 2-Pass Bit Rate VBR, when it starts on the second pass it bombs out. It was saying that the file changed from the original. I would suggest doing a "Lossless" file, then encoding the file to whatever bitrate you want. I'm still using WinDVD 5 (with the registry mod) and having it decode the audio for 5.1ch. It works great here.

If you want the link to my mod of the original script (v1.0), here it is:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=175523

Yes that's true Simba. Using VBR indeed does the trick. Since its peak bitrate is unconstrained, the bitrate goes up to as much as 384 kbps whenever it is needed. So using a bit rate like 192 kbps would do no harm. I am not sure about 128 kbps, though. To be honest, I haven't done any rips using 128 kbps.

I agree with you about the lowering resolution. I am the same -- I encoder my movies in 720 * 576 if there are no black parts.

Which script does have the flow? You mean the script I am using in this guide? Well, I have done 17 DVDs so far and didn't get any problems yet. There should be definitely something wrong with DirectShow filters or settings. There is a KB article in the site on how to fix DS problems. If you don't mind, I will try to contact you in MSN.

There is more, currently I am testing on converting DVD to WMV9 using only Windows Media Encoder. It does require very clean DirectShow filter configurations. I myself didn't achieve any success until today. You will see that guide in the main page too.

Cheers,
McoreD

Ooops. I goofed up.. I forgot to add a step (and a whole lot of other changes).

----====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====----
Use Windows Media 9 then. I've had the best luck out of that package and it shrinks it down to the size of a standard CD-R, and you get 5.1ch audio with it. This is what I usually use.

Software needed:
WinDVD 4 (or 5) (for audio codec)
SmartRipper 2.41
DVD2AVI 1.76
VFAPICodecV105EN (VFAPI Reader)
Windows Media Encoder 9

0. Audio codec setup
Open REGEDIT, and add key (or change if already exist)
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\InterVideo\Common\AudioDec]
"Audio"=dword:00000005

1. Ripping
Open SmartRipper, select the VIDEO and the AUDIO areas. Make sure you seperate the files (you should get 2 files, an AC3 and an M2V). This will take 10-15 minutes. Close it.

2. Converting to AVI and AC3
Start DVD2AVI, go FILE/OPEN and select the M2V file. Select VIDEO/CROP, and find out how much you have to crop from top and bottom (usualy 72 or 80 pixels). Deselect CROP because we will use WME9 for croping, not DVD2AVI. This step is required becuase it`s hard to find out how much croping is needed in WME9(no real time preview in WME9). Go FILE/SAVE_PROJECT to save d2v file to disk. It will take some 20 minutes. You can also press F5 for preview to see if source is interlaced or not (it`s usually not). Close it.
Open VFAPIConv, ADDJOB, select D2V file, and press run. It take some 30 sec to create AVI file. Close it.

3. Converting

*** Part 1 ***
Open Windows Media Encoder 9. Close wizard (we wont use it). Go to Properties (from main toolbar).
*Click on the "Sources" tab
Set NAME (optional, doesn`t really have any function)
Source from -> set to BOTH DEVICE AND FILE
Select VIDEO, from drop down menu -> BROWSE_FOR_FILE, and select AVI file
Select AUDIO, from drop down menu -> BROWSE_FOR_FILE, and select AC3 file
*Click on the "Output" tab
Deselect PULL FROM ENCODER and set ARCHIVE TO FILE, press BROWSE and set the temporary file's name
*Click on the "Compression" tab
Press "Destination".. Select "File Archive"
Make sure "Audio" is set to "Lossless Quality Audio (VBR 100)"
Make sure "Video" is set to "Highest Quality Video (VBR 100)"
Press the "EDIT" button
Click on the "Quality-Based" tab
Select "VBR Quality 100, 48 kHz, 5.1 Channel 24 bit VBR"
Frame Rate should be "23.976" [For Film]
Set "Key Frame Interval" to around 1 (or the default)
Deselect "Same As Video Input"
Enter proper size.. ex. Widescreen = (720/2.35=306.. 720x306), Fullscreen = 640x480
Press the "OK" button
*Click on the "Video Size" tab
Set "Crop Method" to CUSTOM, and put TOP and BOTTOM values we found out in DVD2AVI (usually 72 or 80).
Set PIXEL ASPECT RATIO to CUSTOM, and put some values like 17:12 to get OUTPUT ASPECT RATIO of original movie like 2.25:1 or similar (see DVD box)
Encode the file.. Click on "Start Encoding"

*** Part 2 ***
*Click on the "Sources" tab
Source from -> FILE
Select the "WMV Lossless" file you just created.
*Click on the "Output" tab
Deselect "Pull From Encoder" and select "Archive To File"
Click on the "BROWSE" button and set the final file's name (ex. The Lion King [Special Edition].wmv)
*Click on the "Compression"
Press the "EDIT" button
Select AUDIO
Select "Windows Media Audio 9 Professional"
Select VIDEO
Select "Windows Media Video 9"
Make sure both are set to "Bit Rate VBR" (or "Bit Rate VBR Peak")
Click on the "xxx kbps" tab
Select your bitrate "128 kbps, 48 kHz, 5.1 Channel 24 bit VBR" (or whatever you feel safe with)
Set "Key Frame Interval" to around 10
Set "Decoder Complexity" to "Complex"
Video Bit Rate (Average) should be somewhere between "500k" or "1100k"
Click "Ok"
Make sure "Two Pass Encoding" is checked.
Set DECODER COMPLEXITY to COMPLEX (not sure about this)
Press "Ok"
*Click on the "Attributes" tab
Set NAME and other stuff here (optional)
Press APPLY and close Properties.
Press START ENCODING.
OPTIONAL:
Go to sleep.
After around 10-20 hours, close WME9 (depending on your processor).
----====----====----====----====----====----====----====----====----

If anyone finds any errors, please fix them for me.

Hi Simba7,

There is nothing wrong I could find your method except for it takes a bit too long.

• You should be able to get rid of Part 1
• Some have reported that if you use AC3 directly in WME it gives you 4.1 instead of 5.1 -- according to the original author: Bulma in 2002

However, If you want to do this in a much more simple way Then:
have a look at this KB: http://members.iinet.net.au/~malith/kb-vobtowmv.htm
By using AC3Filter you can get WME to detect the all the 6 channels of the AC3 file. With a good DirectShow filter configuration I also managed to open the VOB without crashing WME.

I am having trouble doing it that way, McoreD.. I'm compressing the following:

Pentium 4 2.4GHz Processor
512mb of RAM
60gb HD
WinDVD 5.3 (Platinum Edition)
AC3Filter

One problem I'm seeing (I've done it this way before) is that it skips frames like mad. I was making a backup of American Wedding and it skipped all over. It went from the Universal Logo to where he gave her the ring (which is like a 4-5min jump). I was like "WTF?"

I might end up reverting to v1.0 (or 2.0) of the guide.

EDIT: I found the problem. WinDVD 5.3 Platinum Edition was fscking things up. Use the Elecard MPEG2 Player. It fixes the jump problems.

Also, I noticed the audio was quite LOW when I played it back. How do you keep the audio level in AC3Filter? I used the suggested settings and I could barely hear it. I'm trying the WinDVD audio for now with the registry edit (I AM getting 6ch audio with it).

Hi Simba7,

I just want to share this info with others too. Writing this as we speak in MSN...

Though I have mentioned about encoding DVDs from VOB to WMV method it is not the most successful method for me either. So far only the AviSynth method worked perfectly for any DVD.

There are lots of issues when using VOB to WMV method. The process is entirely depended on what Audio/Video decoders you have installed. In contrast, in AviSynth method, the VOB files are filtered through the Windows Default AVI Compressor and the 6 WAV files are filtered through the Windows Default Wave Parser. So you never get into problems.

Back to VOB to WMV method:
Till we get around with a perfect Audio Decoder and Video Decoder (atm Elecard may be) I guess it is better for me to stick with the AviSynth method.

AviSynth method is actually taking less time than making WM9LL and then re-encoding them, if you think about it.
(Times in a 3.00 GHz)

• DVD2AVI - making AC3 file and d2v file -- around 5 minutes
• BeSweet - creating 6 WAV files from AC3 -- around 8 minutes
• AvsScriptGen -- creating the script file -- around 1 minute
• WME9 -- encoding the video -- around 2.5 hours (150 minutes) for WM8, around 8 hours (4800 minutes for WMV9)

So for it takes me about 14 ~ 16 mts for settings things up before I get to encoding.
IMO encoding the DVD to WM9LL and then re-encoding to WMV9 is a bit overkill. You replace the first three steps (I listed above) with WM9LL. But it takes at least 2 hours or more (according to you.) But I believe that this method is more successful than trying to directly encoding in WME9. So it is a very good work-around. I will be testing your method in the near future.

Yes the sound level in AC3 Filter is too low, I was noticing that. Thanks for confirming it.

WTF is mts? If you mean minutes, the correct short form is min, no plural form, no t. How on earth didn't you learn this in school?

http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/outside.html
http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/checklist.html

Yes I remember min is the symbol for minutes . Thanks for reminding me Latexxx.
For some reason I have got this habit to use mts as the shortened form for minutes (unintentionally though).
I hope the rest is understandable.

I will change it to min to avoid further confusion.

@Simba7,
I added your guide here: DVD to WMV9 with WMA9 Professional 5.1 Channel Audio using WM9LL --- by Simba7
If you got more ideas please tell me.

Roger that. I'll keep ya informed.

Myself, I'm an XviD nerd; but from time to time I do my own comparisons with DivX, RV9, VP or even WMV, just to make sure that my preferred solution still is competitive. Perhaps you'd like to do that, too and let us know your impressions. Especially WMA against HE AAC in multichannel encoding would interest us on this board.

Edit: The still image you attached is quite blocky and I wonder what high-motion scenes look like. Perhaps you should not insist on doing 720x-resolutions.