Hello,

With certain of my records I keep getting a "fuzzy" sound on the peaks/louder sections of the music (quieter sections are fine). This is not digital clipping, it's coming from the record. A good example is here:

http://home.attbi.com/~fewtchmon/fuzzy.mp3

(the above is 450k in size)

My question is, does this come from:

(A) Vinyl damage
(B) Damaged or worn stylus
© My (admittedly) crappy phono preamp adding too much amplification
(D) Some overenthusiastic audio engineer
(E) Some other cause?

Thanks for any help on this...

P.S... can washing a record in tap water using a mild detergent, then drying with a soft cotton towel damage vinyl? I can't afford some $400 cleaning machine.

When did you last changed your stylus?
If its fairly new then you just have played your records with a wrong deck.(those nasty soviet ones with stylus force in kg-s:D)

It's fairly new in terms of playing hours, but I've dropped it once or twice (not sure if it landed needle side down or up), and have been a little too brutal with cleanings, maybe.

I don't have a magnifying glass, but the tip looks good held up to a bright light and it doesn't sound uniformly bad (which you would think, if the tip were broken off).

P.S... I buy most of my records via Ebay, so I can't tell what any previous owner has done with it.

This sample is from a fairly old record. Do you encounter the same problem with brand new ones?
Needle abusing is always a bad thing!! I don't clean it at all(just blow on it occasionally)
Oh and dont worry too much! I have seen(actually heard) worse in my collection.

There you have it!

The record is Ca. 1971. I collect Moog synth music that was never released on CD, so there's really no choice when it comes to the age of the record & (to a lesser extent) where I get it.

Vinyl is an evil format (imho), but nothing to be done when it can't be found any other way...

Heh, it takes a 400$ cd player to outperform a 150$ record deck:P
EDIT: That was an IMO

If your really interested in ripping vinyl, I'd recommend technics and a good mixing cart.. But that of course will cost you a pretty penny..
Add a mixer and another deck and you basically got my dj setup

Good luck.. I've made some awesome rips of my vinyl.

Err.. yeah, maybe if the record is brand new, depends on your definition of "performance." If you don't mind various analog distortions (in a $150 turntable [b]definitely), a dynamic range of about 60dB (turntable rumble bringing that to about 40) then I guess you're OK.

Given, frequency response is better... I can't think of anything else that is. I think it's a myth that vinyl is "better" than CD, unless you're a bat... in which case, the clicks/pops would do you in completely .

I'm really interested in ripping vinyl (at least a certain genre), but don't have much money to spend.

I think I do pretty well considering my cheap equipment (pat, pat). It's really more an art than a science, and after a year or two (and going cold turkey off most noise reduction plugins) I'm still learning. Maybe I'll run into a windfall & be able to afford a nice $400 turntable, $300 soundcard, $350 record washing machine and etc.

I Am A Big Collector Of Vinyl Have Over 10,000. Here Is A Good Site That Should Answer Most All Of Your Questions.

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~abcomp/lp-cdr.htm

If Any One Has Lps For Sell Or Trade E-Mail Me

It's probably damage to the LP.

And if it is, buying a better set up will just enable you to hear the damage more clearly! Though this may take it to the level where a click/pop eliminator can start to work on it. If not, it'll just be even more annoying than it is now. To be honest, as someone who listens to vinyl a lot, it's not very annoying!


On the other hand, it could be a damamged stylus, or a badly adjusted record deck. The fact that the distortion is mainly on one channel suggests that it's not just wear: it's either been played with a damaged stylus in the past, or is being played with one now!

Cheers,
David.

P.S. you want one of these:
http://www.elpj.com/

Hmmm... not quite as expert as I'd like in this area, but from what I've seen and read..

It sounds like it 's happening only during very high volume peaks.

It could be record damage, or it could be mistracking. Mistracking is when the stylus, for a variety of reasons, isn't staying in contact with the groove during really high speed (high volume) parts. It starts "catching air" like a motocross rider over hills really fast... skimming the peaks. Unfortunately, this can cause damage like you hear, due to the tremendous impacts.. Then you hear it forever...

To fix it, you need to make sure your arm/cartridge are set up right.. if the alignment isn't good, you're sound wont be at it's best, and possibly it could contribute to this. Mostly, you want to make sure your tracking and anti-skating are right. A too light tracking weight will make it eaiser for mistracking to occur, as well as too much anti-skate.. Your cartridge manufacturer should have posted ranges for the tracking weight. Too much will compromise your sound.

Other possiblities, you could have a damaged stylus.. You need a 50 power microscope to really tell, if it's not obvious.. Problem is, this could be another way to be permenently damaging the vinyl with each play..

It could be even some stickier crud on the stylus. (microscope helps here) I was wondering about my stylus, saw some stuff, and after much careful cleaning it was gone, and my problem cleard up. It sounded very similar.

Anyway.. see if you are setup right, first. Here's a link, on setting up the arm and cartridge: http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/xenta...ridgeSetup.html
Your turntable (like mine) may not have all the fancier adjustments, if not, just stick to tracking weight and antiskate, and sometime if you haven't yet, get the alignment right.

Then see if you can get your hands on a stylus microscope, to see if it's bad or dirty. If it chipped during one of those falls, you might have a little razor edge, shaving those volume peaks... :eek:

Testing for C... if you can reduce the gain on your soundcard.. you MIGHT be able to rule this out.. Have any good way to measure Audio voltages? Or, do you have to turn the soundcard gain way up, or way down for a good level. Way down, would be a hint that your really hot out of that preamp..

As usual, I got into answer #1 so deep, I forgot answer #2!

People have done this, and a mild detergent shouldn't do anything. But, the problem is getting it off again without leaving any residue.

This includes the water, and whatever rinse you use! Ever see waterspots? You don't want calcium deposits on your records.. most tap water will have a fair amount of minerals. I think paying a buck or so for a gallon of true distilled water is worth it, for cleaning solution and rinse.. Get those plastic rinse bottles they use in chem labs, makes for good control and conservation.

What others like for detergent, is something mild, and very easily washable.. like the stuff they use with photo prints.. or glass lab equipment.

I ended up using pure distilled water, and 91% isppropyl alchohol, about 4:1 never got to detergents... so virtually everything I put on the record should evaporate with next to no trace.

I also use the brush mentioned in the first link.. light scrub, wipe off onto a microfiber towel, then rinse with pure distilled, scrubbing and wiping.. then use the towel to lightly blot up most excess.. then I have a couple of velvet type record brushes, that I go around with, first one to get remaining water/stuff out of grooves, second one dry, to remove last bits of solids..

And.. here's a couple of links on cleaning records, the non $400 machine way..

http://www.soundstage.com/synergize/synergize041998.htm

http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/fluids.html
Hope it helps..

Jon

Did I say I was compulsive?

Last note on vinyl cleaning and care..

Get a cheap little high intesity lamp. One with a tiny Halogen bulb, (found one for $10 at an Ikea) the smaller the better. A strong point source of light is the best kind to view grooves, and stuff on them or in them.

Makes a big difference in seeing the stuff your cleaning brush brings up, so you know when you're really clean.

Cleaning brush... you mean those things they sell at the Needle Doctor for 40 bucks... for a BRUSH? Yeah I saw the link about making a home-made brush, it's something to think about.

BTW, thanks for all the generous advice. I'm not that worried about using tap water, since I usually play a record only once or twice... long enough to get it into digital format -- after that, I don't care (much) about its fate. The water is pretty good around here, I don't see any serious deposits forming after just one or two tapwater washings (the dishwashing liquid I use has an antibacterial ingredient too, and drying the record should cut down on the possibility of mold growth etc, altho probably introducing a bit of fibrous stuff from the towel).

After I wash & dry a record like this, I let it dry (completely) for about 15 minutes, blow it off, then play it through once (so the stylus picks up a bit more dust in the grooves). Then I hit it with a carbon fiber brush, and finally make the actual digital recording. This method has worked OK for me, as far as I can tell.

All that said, I did order a bottle of the Disc Doctor "miracle record cleaner" ($20/pint) just to see if it's very effective (I tend to doubt it will improve much on my method, but curiosity got the better of me). I'll use a washcloth or something for the "scrubbing," thanks but no $40 brushes. This is a $100 (Sony) turntable we're discussing here, and an inexpensive consumer soundcard used for the recording (sounds OK tho, you might be surprised).

P.S... on the first link you gave, I'm surprised the guy doesn't recommend rinsing the record after using a cleaning solution containing *lysol* of all things. Won't that leave detergent deposits that would pale anything left by soft tapwater?

i just played it and the crackling is not all that bad. you can record this song to your computer and use software to clean it up. one note of caution though: always remember that you can never get a "perfect" result when restoring vinyl. sometimes u just have to put up with a few minor clicks and a little bit of hiss during playback. advanced restoration filters can get rid of a lot of junk, but if the restoration is done incorrectly and/or excessively, the quality of the recording can degrade significantly

my advice is to use sound forge 6 as it uses non-destructive editing and supports 64-bit processing, convert the 16-bit recording to 64-bit float, run it through waves restoration-x, make a few mastering adjustments if necessary, and then dither back to 16-bit again, and burn it to CD

if u have access to a sonic solutions nonoise system, u might wanna try that as well to clean up your vinyls

hope that helps

Just listened to it

It's no stylus wear, stylus wear turns all sounds into zzz-zzz, here, the sound is sharp with added sharp distortion.

I don't think it's a damaged stylus (though i can be wrong), because one channel at least would miss treble.

It's no clipping.

It sounds like there is quite a huge amount of dust on your stylus. I got something like that once with a record especially. Each time I played it, the sound turned like this, because there was some dust bunnies wrapping the stylus.

Brush it with a stylus brush. Don't use your fingers, as I saw once advised. A friend of mine used to clean his stylus with his bare hands, as a result, his stylus ended covered with blood !

It can also be a damaged stylus, but, according to the noise, it should be easy to see !

You can scan your stylus with a high resolution scanner

Here, one of mines, at 1200x600 dpi :

Thanks Pio... the sound does suggest "dust" when hearing, but the stylus (& record) are perfectly clean, which is what makes it kind of a mystery.

I remove the stylus and clean it regularly (just the needle part) with alcohol, using the edge of a piece of thin, soft paper so it won't affect other parts of the stylus. I also use a Last stylus brush regularly.

I think it must be vinyl damage (maybe from previous abuses), unless it really is my phono preamp and this is just an over-mastered LP.

BTW if anyone's curious, the LP in question is Hugo Montenegro's "Mammy Blue." One of those RCA "Dynaflex" thin records that supposedly improve on warping/scratching, but probably only improved on the cost of manufacturing the records...

Then it might be the stylus that has been twisted when it fell down. I Re-listened to it and the main voice is actually off centered to the right.
It seems the left channel is badly read.
Can you see the tip ? It it vertical ? I guess it's bent.

I have over-mastered LPs, and they don't sound like that.

I once put a bent tip vertical again with a little clip, like the ones for stamps. I must admit that I completely crushed the stylus in the operation, but the tip was vertical and the sound good again

Honestly I can't tell, but it could be a little bent (it would surprise me though it that was the cause of the "fuzzy" sounds).

I have a new stylus on order from Needle doctor, so when it arrives I'll be able to tell if that was the problem. Thanks again for the feedback.

EDIT -- I looked at the stylus under a magnifying glass (admittedly not a very strong one) and actually, it [b]doesn't look bent, it appears to be fine. I'm still suspecting something to do with the record, and appreciating/enjoying all the comments/feedback on this...

Well, I don't think anyone's mentioned this yet, and since you're actually recording into a computer, I think that this is a very valid point. What kind of preamp are you using, and what kind of cartridge? Most importantly (and to the point), what is the output (in mV) of your cartridge? I know that the Grado prestige series of cartridges output so much that a crappy $40 preamp from Circuit City will sound raspy and overdriven at high highs, such as syllibant "s" sounds or high hats. Therefore, check and see what kind of preamp you're running the sound through, and maybe try a different cartridge, if that's possible, or a different preamp. A nice preamp will go a *long* way towards a good sound, whereas a poor one will ruin your vinyl transfer. I've suffered from this problem more than once, when I've changed cartridges. Take that into account, and see if you can't find someone else's phono preamp to use as an experiment.

I'll just be brutally honest here -- it's a preamp built into a $125 Sony turntable (model PS-J11). I have no idea what kind of quality Sony puts into their modern low-end turntables. I do know that most of my vinyl rips sound fairly good, although probably not "audiophile quality" (whatever that might mean to you).

This particular record sounds terrible, and so I started this thread asking what the cause might be.

I am on a limited budget and enjoy "ripping" vinyl anyway... and am neither ashamed to admit it, nor will I refrain from doing it because I can't afford higher quality equipment... take that as you will (my Paypal account is always open to donations . Cheers...

off topic: why do people have to use the word "ripping" for almost every audio copying operation now?

When extracting digital data at high speed from a CD, the word kind of made sense. Both in the case of being "ripped off" (i.e. robbed, stolen - you were stealing the exact data) and in the case of ripping along (i.e. going very quickly - you normally do digital audio extraction at more than 1x).

With an LP, you don't make an exact copy, and you almost always copy it at 1x.

So, I propose caling it recording, copying, transfering, or transcribing.

Of course no one will take notice of this, because newbies hear the word "ripping" and think "that sounds cool - I don't really know what it means, but it sounds cool" and before you know it, every recording and copying operation is called "ripping".

End of rant!

Cheers,
David.
http://www.David.Robinson.org/

Going further off topic - can anyone suggest a decent-priced amplifier (300-500$ range) with a good phono preamp part? I'd like to do some vinyl transfers myself, and I'm very happy with my record player (Rega Planar 2), but my amp is long past it's due date I'm afraid... Or alternatively suggest a separate phono preamp for this use.

I'm currently looking at something like the Denon PMA-655 or the NAD C320 in combination with the NAD PP1 phono preamp.

I guess I should take this to some hi-fi board, but I've no idea where I should go, and I'd probably just end up starting a flamewar or something

Not me, it would perfectly fit the sound of one channel read with the tip top (the right one), while the other would loose contact with the tip.



Ok, then. Waiting to learn if it's the stylus or the record, trying with a new one

Heh, the NAD with a NAD PP1 is a very good combination. I considered buying a C350 in winter but i spent all my loan on alcohol:D (well actually i bought a monitor, lots of lottery tickets..)

edit: THEY say that Pro-ject's phono preamp is slightly better than the PP1...

edit2: ALLWAYS LISTEN WITH YOUR OWN EARS!!! (what i'm trying to say is stay away from denon)

I dunno... why do people have to use any word in whatever context becomes common? In my case it's simply a matter of habit.

What difference does it make what word is used?

I have to admit I tend to prefer the NAD sound myself, but I'll be sure to listen to anything before I buy it, no matter what... I'll have a look at the Pro-ject preamp as well then. Thanks!

You don't have something against Denon *in general* do you? I've always rather liked their products, especially the price point. Generally, most of their products sounds good (not fantastic, just solidly good) without being pricey pretenders like Bose.

I have to say that denon is THE BEST in cinema (5.1), but sadly they 2 channel offerings are a little bit.. hm not so good as others. Go listen it yourself. Denon has a distinct warm sound (okay for me it's muddy). I personally prefer NAD. If you like warm and gentle sound then go for Arcam. It had much better refinement and detail than Denon but it sounds excactly the same (warm) (i know it doesnt make sence. im too drunk now).
By the way i don't like the warm sound of vinyl. It is a complete bllsht if someone says that somebody prefers vinyl becouse it's warm. You can have a very lean sound with vinyl!! Mine is as lean as it can get. (as cheap as it can get too:D ). Just cheap CD players are way too edgy for me. They just don't cut it.
edit: dmamn typos how to get rid of them? Giljotine??

edit2: arrrgh, even my edits have typos on them. wats up?

Agreed, the sound of vinyl depends on a number of factors, and is not inherently "warm." Maybe it got that reputation because of turntable rumble, and vinyl background noise which errr... adds a certain "dynamic" to the music...

P.S. I have 2 pair of Denon headphones, and am pleased enough considering the inexpensive price. But I'm thinking about a pair of Grado SR-60's (for my portable MP3 player).

Yes. Your sample sounded indeed a little "warm". I like vinyl becouse it gives the instruments a presence that you achieve only with expencive cd players. And it gives me a perfect timing (you know, instrumets dont get stacked on eachother). The result is a wonderful lifelike performance. CD players get too analytic sometimes(I call it edgy). It just gets to your ears. Oh and i dont get such a deeep soundstage with it either. Maybe i should upgrade my CD player?

I've got 200 vinyls and 300 CDs
I listen vinyls with an optimised Technics SL-3100 + Stanton Trackmaster EL, and CDs with a Marian Marc 2 soundcard digital output linked to a Sony DTC 55 ES. All plugged into an Arcam Diva A85 ampli + Dynaudio Gemini speakers...

...and I absolutely don't know what to think about the sound of vinyls VS CD !

I've got some CD sounding better than any vinyl could, and some vinyls sounding better than any CD could.

I've got several recording on both CD and vinyl.
Some of them are better on CD (Dead Can Dance - Within the realm of a dying sun, The Legendary Pink Dots - The Maria Dimention...).
Some of them are better on vinyl (This Mortal Coil - It will end in tears, Xymox - Imagination...).

The differences in sound quality seem to be bigger from a record to another, or even from a release of a record to another, than from vinyl to CD (granted the vinyl doesn't click).

But vinyls and CD have not the same qualities at all. Records were even mixed completely differently for vinyl than they are for CD.

Quoted from Dominique Blanc-Francard, about vinyls (translated from French, I'm not sure about using the word "to cut" for the making of a record) :

"In order for the result on the record to be correct, a very special care had imperatively had to be provided at sound recording and mixing : exeptional quality required ! Otherwise, the specialist would kick us out of his laboritory, telling us gently, but firmly, to go learn our engineer job : "no way to record this, my lad, must remix..." The disgrace ! What a downfall in the face of the director, who, with a single inflamatory glare, meant us we were chucked out, finished for life, that we'd better take the first flight for Bengladesh. I barely exaggerate.
A good many colleagues lost their reputation on the path of the cutting studios [studios de gravure]. Others, of whom I was, have known they had won theirs hearing the cutting engeener speaking the magic sentence : "Champion ! Nothing to touch ! This mix is cuttable like butter [french expression]". Those engeeners liked us because they could improve our work and do theirs properly. They knew the person in charge of the record company wouldn't call them three days later calling them names, for the good reason that the pressed sample would be unlistenable compared to the copy of the tape they had in their office."

Oh, I didn't mean those kind of expensive ones! Yeah, maybe having one of the carbon fiber ones would be nice (dont myself) but I was talking el cheapo ones like the $7 Radio Shack brush, that are a foam pad with velvet over it.

Making your own cleaning brush is the way to go.. All you need is to find some good, dense velvet ribbon.. check craft stores.. and something to make the flat "handle". I followed his lead, found parts.. cost me under $5.

Don't use a washcloth!! ;-) It won't get down in the grooves anyway..

I'll mention the towel again.. it was a special one meant for just wrapping your head in, to dry hair, but it's that "microfiber" stuff, that is VERY absorbent, as well is it just dosen't shed anything. Perfect, and my most expensive thing at about $15..



Sounds good.. For me, after blotting with the towel, I also go over the record with my "wet" (i.e. kinda ruined by excessive water) cheap velvet brush.. it helps get the water out of the grooves faster, which leaves less water (with dissolved crud) to dry, as well as getting more solid crud up and out. I wipe the "wet" brush off against the towel often as I dry, which gets the water off it (and hopefully more cleaned crud) so it can keep drying/cleaning the record.



Well... I think he might have gotten a little excited with the rest of the article and forgot to mention that.. I sure wouldn't let the stuff dry on the record!! Hmm.. if I remember, he's reccomending putting in on one of the $400 vaccum cleaner things to suck off the solution.. I also think it was about 10 drops to the gallon.. Still, we're saving money.. and don't have expensive record cleaning machines, so rinsing is in order!

Well.. having a new stylus for an A/B comparison should settle that..

On looking at it.. to really see damage detail you need maybe 10X more than Pio's picture before you can say it's worn or slightly damaged. For bending of the cantiliever (stylus arm), you should be able to tell with less of a magnifying glass.. but still, it only takes a few degrees..

Another thing.. if the balance is off center on all recordings, the cart might be not aligned properly..

Something to check, since good points like preamp saturation and such have been brought up.. would be to listen to other, similarly loud records, if it shows up every time you get that loud.. it probably is a level problem.. Then, you could make an attenuator out of 3 resistors (let me know if you need to) to stick in line, that would "lower the volume" of the cartridge, and keep the preamp from clipping.

Changing the stylus should also replace the suspension for the stylus arm, which could be messed up, causing the stylus to track better in one direction and not another.. could explain the symptom (if it's there) of a shift in channel balance.

PS, though Pio has had some good input here.. I think you might want to think carefully if he offers to fix your cartdrige with a big pair of pliers!!!

(just kidding Pio!) ;-)

It's finding the right parts that sounds a little "tricky." I wonder if one of those brushes used to pick up lint off clothes would work... i'm not sure it's made of velvet, it's a velvet-like material.

My major concern is damaging the record, of course. But it seems that's more difficult to do than one would think. I never would have imagined using alcohol, but apparently it doesn't affect vinyl.

At first thought, I wonder why velvet would get into the grooves of a record any better than a towel, too. Velvet fibres are short, and I wouldn't think they would penetrate very deep... who knows...

It might work.. main things would be, materiel has to have fibers small enough to actually get into record grooves, and be easy to hold and run over the record. I looked at a lot of things, but his suggestion of a short block shaped "handle" seems probably the best, now that I've been doing it..

I didn't do a wide search for velvet materiel.. the first craft store I went to had nice 1 1/2" wide ribbon with deep velvet "turf".. fibers are probably 1/16" long.
They're even longer than the ones on my "real" dust cleaner brushes. Seem to be stiffer too, and they don't lay down like those do when wet.

The materiel is polyester, which I think would be softer than vinyl.. so no damage from that, anyway. Alchohol, most think, doesn't do much damage.. especially if you are not using it straight.. (I'm using 4:1 water:alcohol) and not often.

I'm not sure how deep the average groove is, but it's probably only a few thousandths of an inch. They are very narrow, too.. which is why towels and such probably wouldn't do much.. much coarser fibers that are loops, rather than straight fibers tied at the ends, like a brush..

You can definatly feel the fibers getting into the grooves, especially if you hold the brush the right direction.. the fibers will go in better one way than the other, being that the fibers "point" one way. Pull against the grooves a little, and you can feel them in there..

I bought a velvet brush with cleaning solution from Stanton, and I must say I'm not satisfied with it. I tried it on several records, and it increased the background noise ! (I can post MP3 samples)
I would never use anything else than a carbon fiber brush. It is really soft with any surface. Though I must admit that it looses its bristles. However, I never noticed any problem with playing, and never found any carbon bristle on the tip...

So far, I think I like my cleaning method (despite the fact that it uses tap water, which can leave a residue on records, yet the water around here is very 'soft'):

(1) Run lukewarm water in the bathtub with reasonable force (not enough to damage the record)
(2) Put some detergent on the record, wet it, spread it around
(3) Hold the record under the water awhile
(4) Set the record down on a thick towel, carefully dry the one side with the towel
(5) Let the record dry completely (~15 min), use a carbon fibre brush, play...
(6) Repeat starting with step (1) for the second side

This method has disadvantages... the label on the record can be ruined by the water. Also, probably not a good idea unless you do what I do, record once to digital (repeats could leave mineral deposits and wash away the label). It does seem to effectively clean a record though, although I don't know how much compared to various other methods.

BTW, I ordered a can of "Gruv-Glide" (see the Needledoctor.com front page) and will report on effectiveness after I receive it. It looks like a potentially interesting product.

Hmmm... how are you doing your cleaning with that kit? It can be possible to "stir up" a lot of the dirt, but not get it off the record.. then it ends up deposited all over the groove surface, and you "hear" more of it..

Fewtch's "power rinse" technique probably does well with the removal..

I read that the carbon brushes are very good, and drain static too.. but they do shed a lot. You might try a final pass with a velvet, to get loose fibers. They might not stick to the stylus like other dust, and build up, but hitting a fiber is probably good for a tiny pop or click..

I also read one company had a velvet/carbon fiber brush.. in two halves.. so it cleaned up after itself..

Like to hear if it actually does something.. or was it squeezed from a snake..

Hi Guys (gals?)

Here's the latest:

A new stylus didn't solve the fuzziness problem. Nor did an application of "Gruv-glide" (an interesting stuff that does seem to make a slight improvement in playback quality, and definitely destaticizes very well).

Anyway, now I'm pretty sure the "fuzziness" reported in the song is probably on the vinyl, although it could still be from a cheap phono amp, or the cartridge/tonearm is misaligned. But I don't recall hearing it on many other records, so I think it's the record.

BTW, for those who are interested, I took recordings of "noise" from my setup, both with the phono preamp activated and without it. Then I peak-normalized both to -1.5Db. Here are the results (uggh):

http://home.attbi.com/~fewtchmon/noamp.mp3

http://home.attbi.com/~fewtchmon/withamp.mp3

Both above are about 75K bytes. The first is with the preamp turned off, the second is with it turned on (soundcard input levels are the same, turntable isn't spinning).

Yuck! An equipment upgrade is called for, I just don't know when. I don't play records enough to justify much of an investment, especially when only "ripping" once and that's all I ever play the actual record. Maybe I'll just use digital audio cleanup, it works "well enough."

Cheers...

I've listened to your problem and my hearing is not what it used to be but it seems to me that one of your problem is poor grounding.. ..

In order to fix your 60 hz hum which I can clearly hear. Try one of several options.

1)take your AC power cord and reverse it, (by the wall plate) do this with each component that uses AC Power

2)Make sure your phono cartridge connectors are tight

3)Next to your turntable output cables should be a small grounding wire, which ideally, should be connected to your amp or preamp

4)turntable motor is not shielded, acoustically or electronically.
try stuffing your turntable box with acoustically absorbant material, ie, an old sweater or whatever.

I also heard a lot of hiss which is very common low quality phono cartridge or cheap amp, preamp...try one of the better Shure Cartridges

I hope this helps
Regards
tinman

Bummer that it didn't clean up..

Well, you can buy external phono preamps (that you'ld want) starting at $100 or so.. and going to insane prices.. Uh, ever build a kit? Adverse to learning how to do a little soldering? ;-)

I saw this a while back: http://www.anyeq.com/pdf/bugle.pdf

Not too difficult to be a first project, if you've got steady hands.. I've been looking at homebuilding some high qual project.. this is sorta below what I was pursuing, but has a pc board, which makes building MUCH eaiser. When I say below what I was looking at, you should realize even this one should probably sound as good as something you'ld buy off the shelf for $200-400.

Thanks for the tips...

I should note that the background noise I provided is actually inaudible unless amplified. In Sound Forge it displays at -66Db on the Vu meters. With sound card volume turned up, a hissing sound can *barely* be heard.

I just provided an amplified version, to demonstrate the amount and/or type of noise. I do think it comes from a cheap turntable (with built in cheap phono preamp), period. There is no grounding wire associated with the turntable either (although adding one probably would be easy, but require taking it apart).

I already can do soldering, but it just doesn't seem worth it, for a $100 turntable. Eventually I'll upgrade both the turntable and soundcard (and with a better phono preamp -- that's when I'd start thinking about it).

I have a Denon PMA-920, which feeds a pair of Klipsch Heresey IIs. I am very happy with the quality; for the price, the setup is not easily outclassed (and I bought the stuff 12 years ago). The setup is certainly not on par with some of the reference standard equipment, but that is an unfair comparison. Denon and NAD are equal in price, but as I remember the quality of NAD slipped a bit (and was told so by floor salesmen). Regardless if that is still relevant (this was some time ago), Denon stereo components are undeserving of the "stay away from" label...

Even with a good cartridge/stylus combo, my Technics turntable, on the other hand, needs to go. These turntbles that have spdif out caught my eye...

Denon

Stanton

(both links show specifications and price)

But as far as preamps go-how do these rate? It would be nice to plug in directly, and digitally, to my ap 24/96 to record, and use the analog outs to send to the amplifier. Any thoughts..?

I think you're defeating the purpose of your turntable here. Vinyl is good because it is analog (in many/most cases, at least). An analog -> digital -> analog conversion is only going to reduce the quality, and needlessly so. I've been relatively happy with technics, but then I guess I'm different If you are, however, interested in digital turntables, you might want to check out some of the laser turntables that are out now, they're pretty amazing, and there's no wear on your vinyl not too cheap, though. If I were you, I'd try to find a replacement tone arm rather than a whole new base, unless the base doesn't have the features/sound that you want. Run that through a tube preamp and tube amp, and you should get some very nice results. Keep it all analog, or all digital...the conversions are a large part of what degrade the quality.

Good point silvercpu-since the hardware of the ap 24/96 is the strength of the card, it is best to let it do all of the conversions. Interesting set ups, though...