QuickTime still doesn't support FLAC or any other compressed, lossless audio that I've seen. Has there been anybody that has tried making a QT component for FLAC? Some people made an OGG component over at http://qtcomponents.sourceforge.net/, but the project looks like it died a while ago.

Is there a reason why nobody has made a FLAC component for QuickTime? I want to hop on the lossless codec bandwagon, but I still much prefer iTunes for managing my library (say what you will). I've been looking at QuickTime sample code for the last few days, trying to understand their crazy Component api, but I haven't done anything in C/C++ for the last few years, so it's going kind of slowly. There's not anybody lurking in HA that is secretly developing a FLAC QT component, is there?

That's all for now.

ps. I'm sure most everybody here knows, but iTunes uses QuickTime to decode all of its music (apart using an internal routine for decoding MP3s). So, QT FLAC codec = FLAC in iTunes.

a couple people have started but no one has finished yet. the first one gets the glory!

you could try asking on the flac-dev list.

Josh

I only found one thread in the mailing list about a quicktime component over at flac-dev from about 6 - 12 months ago, and that guy was also just wondering about it. I also posted an email that's about 3 or 4 days old that's not getting any responses.

::sigh::

If someone can get me the shell of a component and would take the responsibilty of compiling and testing, I'd be willing to fill in the codec guts. Maybe Apple has a [license-compatible] AIFF component or something to use as the starting point even.

Josh

The sample code I was looking at is http://developer.apple.com/samplecode/Samp.../audiocodec.htm . They have a version for both mac and windows. It's basically a ulaw codec, so I think it would be possible to gut and replace that. 90% of that looked foreign to me. I'm not sure if it was the terminology of all the low level codec terminology of samples and frames and bits or if it was the QuickTime API. Hopefully you have better luck with it.

I'm sure you must be busy doing dev work on FLAC and in real life, but I'm sure hundreds and eventually thousands of people would love you for a QuickTime FLAC component, supplying them with the first integrated native codec for a compressed, lossless format.


Flight16

What I really need is someone who will sign up to do the compilation and testing of the code.

Josh

Josh,

I can help. I was the one sending iTunes AAC files back and forth to menno. I can definitely do the testing for you. And I can probably take care of the compilation of the code as well. I'm dying for lossless support in iTunes. The ability to add/edit iTunes tags and album artwork is also a must. As far as I'm concerned, who ever gets their first wins.

"Build it and people will come, Ray."

You made a couple/few comments about tags and artwork in the WMA 9 Lossless thread I started when atici mentioned embedded CUE sheets in FLAC. No, I don't think you should be adding artwork to CUE sheets. Everyone seems to have hi-jacked Golden Hawk's CUE sheets, but it's their standard, and only TITLE, PERFORMER, SONGWRITER, CATALOG, ISRC, and REM entries are supported. And, no, I don't think you really need to worry about supporting any of those either.

Forget the CUE sheets, their real purpose is to re-create CDs, but who in Hell really cares about CDs anymore? I'd much rather see everyone support a common set of media library tags. And the two formats out front are clearly Apple's iTunes and M$'s WMA. Apple's got 40% of the portable player market with the iPod, and the lion's share of legal downloads with the iTunes Music Store, so why not support iTunes compatible tags and artwork in FLAC (on both PCs and Macs)?

"People will come, Ray. People will most definitely come."

Regards,

Jay

P.S. Regarding the compilation of the code: you'll need help with this to put together the OS X plug-in for iTunes/QuickTime, but why not just start with a Windows XP plug-in for iTunes/QuickTime? Yes? No?

OK, good, will PM you.


I don't have XP either... I have an old NT4 box, not sure if that is up to the requirements.

Josh

Jay,

You go man! FLAC support in iTunes/Quicktime via a plugin would be great! A much needed free lossless option to Microsoft...

The more Apple stays away from supporting Microsoft products (codecs at least) the better. With the HP announcement of putting a copy of iTunes on every consumer HP PC they sell, iTunes will surely grow in number of Windows users as well.

If this takes off, pehaps even Apple will adopt FLAC native support in both its iPod series fo players and its iTunes software. I see they have a position open for a person very familiar with writing audio encoders/codecs also.

Thanks for all your work on this Jay. And thanks to Josh for the excellent FLAC format!

P.S. And Josh, don't you think its time for an XP/computer upgrade

AFAIK there is no way to do this - iTunes doesn't support QuickTime metadata and vice versa.

QuickTime and iTunes don't support each other's metadata? That seems just silly! But if you aren't doing a lot of work, it wouldn't be too hard to rig up an applescript (and a small util on windows in VB, .net, Java, or whatever it is people are using these days) to transfer tags to and from the FLAC files. So while it might not be "seamless", it will at least only take one or two clicks.

I'm running Panther with XCode and can compile for 10.1 - 10.3. I also have XP with Visual Studio 6 (and I might be able to get enterprise from my school's IT program). So if you need somebody to compile code, I can help with that.

Interesting. I know I can add/edit tags for AAC files (and I'm assuming MP3s as well) from within iTunes. I know the tags are being added directly to the AAC files (as opposed to being stored elsewhere). I can move the files from the Mac to the PC and vise versa and the tags and artwork are right where they belong. I know iTunes will also allow me to add tags to .WAV files, but it won't allow me to add artwork. I haven't nosed around to see whether the metadata is being added to the .WAVs or whether it's just being stored elsewhere (my guess is elsewhere). I know it sounds nutty, but it's the album covers I'd like to see most. With hard drives getting bigger and cheaper by the minute, I'd go with uncompressed .WAVs if I could just add the darned album covers!

What we need to do is find out who one or more of the iTunes programmers are and ask them about the limitations imposed upon any iTunes/QuickTime plug-ins. Obviously they would know whether it's possible to add tagging support to "outsider" file formats.

"Why can’t we all just get along?"

Regards,

Jay

Apple has some mailing lists about quicktime that might be useful:

http://www.lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/quicktime-talk
http://www.lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/quicktime-api

I'm a bit concerned because I remember reading that when people used the OGG QT Component iTunes gave an error saying "Album Artwork not Supported" or something along those lines. I'm not 100% sure though.

I never tested Artwork feature in iTunes when using the iTunes. However I do remeber that the tags did work with later builds of the Ogg QT Plug-in.

However, the only bug that bothered me was the fact the plug-in had to read the Ogg file into memory until it hit an EOF condition and then it would play. This lead to long delays between Ogg tracks....


ss1.

hoooray!

this is great!

we've needed a lossless format for iTunes *forever*

thanks sooo much.

i have two systems that i could test on:

athlon 1700+ w/ 512 ram running windows XP
and
iBook 700 w/ 640 ram running OS X 10.3.1

<-[Ph3N0]-> (visiting from ArsTechnica)

send me an email if you'd like me to test out anything:
j i m i v 0 1 [at] y a h o o [dot] c o m (hand-crafted spam blocker, remove the spaces and change the words in brackets to symbols)

The best option would be to convince them to add support for QuickTime metadata. Ie. if the file has artist, etc. set in QuickTime, iTunes would recognise it. It'd probably be wise to wait until there is a component to add the support to, though

It's worth noting that iTunes doesn't actually tag anything other than MP3 and AAC - it simply stores the metadata in the database.

Hey, I was just wondering what the status was on this. I know it's only been about a 15 days, but was wondering how things looked.

the order of things currently is:

1. finish ogg flac support: only thing left is the seek routine and metaflac
2. callback-based metadata editing interface
3. QT component

Josh

I'd just like to add that I would also very much appreciate a FLAC QuickTime codec.

If for some reason this effort doesn't work out, perhaps we could create a prize for a successful implementation? A couple of hundred people throwing in a $1 each by PayPal could be quite effective.

How's it looking jcoalson ?

I am also looking forward to FLAC support in iTunes... especially since that would greatly simplify the process of transcoding FLAC to iTunes' *.aac/*.m4a! Rest assured, that whenever this project is finished it will be received with great acclaim and appreciation.

- M.

Edit: I forgot to mention that I am using Windows XP... and about the only reason I have iTunes installed is for the purpose of encoding AAC audio. Silly, but that's how it is. (Well, that and the fact that my wife is a Mac fanatic, and when we're on the road her iMac can't travel... but my laptop can. iTunes makes her happy.)

It would definitely be great to use it along with QuickTime Broadcaster

Thanks for your great work jcoalson.

I am liking this. This looks extremely promising. You will be greatly appreciated.

MacWorld has a frontpage editorial requesting Apple to include support for FLAC. Ironically, it misses the most logical reason to support FLAC--lossless compressed audio is of enormous benefit to its media creation initiatives (i.e. Shake, Garageband, audio tracks for its video editors). Of course, if implemented as a Quicktime component, it should work in iTunes as well (so I can listen to my music collection on a Mac and convert my FLAC music collection for use on the iPod).

Perhaps this will generate interest within Apple to implement a FLAC quicktime codec or, at least, bundle Josh's handiwork described above--perhaps compensating him for his time.

See: http://www.macworld.com/weblogs/editors/

Giving Apple Some FLAC

A few days ago I spent some time exploring the FLAC music file format, which splits the difference between small, lossy audio file formats (AAC and MP3) and gigantic, lossless file formats (AIFF and WAV). Apple supports these two kinds of files in iTunes and the iPod. Now it's time for the company to step up and support FLAC, the fascinating file format sitting in the middle of it all.

FLAC is short for Free Lossless Audio Codec. In other words, FLAC files are free from any of the artifacts you'd find in AAC or MP3 files, and sound like uncompressed AIFF or WAV files, or music played directly from a CD. The difference is that FLAC files take up roughly half the space of AIFF or WAV, making them much more economical for people who want to listen to music without compression artifacts and without breaking the bank buying more and more storage for an uncompressed digital music collection.

FLAC's got all the right attributes. It supports tagging, just like the other formats, so integrating it with iTunes and the iPod would be easy. Right now, though, if you want to do FLAC, your best bet is to use xACT, a really nice utility, but it's no iTunes.

Today, FLAC is mostly used for the distribution of live music online. Bands like Phish and Metallica use FLAC because it's lossless (there's that word again) and because their fans demand high-quality audio files.

FLAC's not for everyone. But it fills a hole in the current format list supported by iTunes and the iPod. So, um, whaddaya say, Apple?

What is the current status of this project?

There doesn't seem to have been any visible progress in the last 6 months, so I think we'll need to make things more appealing to developers.

I think we should create a 'bounty' for someone to implement a FLAC Quicktime component. I'd be willing to contribute $10 - what would other people pay?

We'd need a PayPal account or something for people to donate to, and someone trustworthy to manage it.

If someone claimed to have implemented a working component, there should be a set of tests to run through to verify that it works properly.

I would be willing to contribute to this bounty fund.

We might need to come up with a better system for managing it, though. It seems a little risky using Paypal, because like you said, we would have to find someone trustworthy to own the account.

Some ideas for what the requirements should cover:

Must be able to decode a 3 minute FLAC file in under x seconds.
Must be able to encode a 3 minute AIFF file in under x seconds.
Must be able to decode on-the-fly with a maximum CPU usage of x% on a 1GHz iMac G4.
Encode, and subsequent decode must result in a file which is bit-for-bit identical to the original (use MD5 checksums to confirm).

What else?

That makes no sense. These parameters depend more on CPU and compiler optimizations than the way the coder writes the QuickTime interface

The third requirement also is not up to the plugin developer. Unless you expect him to write altivec optimizations to the FLAC code.

Besides, if the code runs slow on PowerPC for some reason, it's not his fault, and jcoalson should look into it.


More realistic requirements would be: tag reading and writing, soundcheck support (maybe some way to do replaygain <-> soundcheck on the fly), etc.

Sound Check is only an iTunes thing, and I don't think it can read from QuickTime (it certainly does not try to do SoundCheck on my Vorbis files, which are being treated as QuickTime movies). I have no idea of how extensible iTunes is format-wise.

Tag reading/writing is certainly possible, though.

Is there any reason for Apple not to adopt a FLAC option because of the GPL?

-jack-

FLAC is BSD'd

Apple didn't adopt FLAC because they decided to go the proprietary route, plain and simple.

Yes, but as ALE/ALAC is used in the AirPort Express, there might also be some CPU/memory constraints that maybe other codec would not meet.

I have been working on a FLAC component for some time now, so here's the satus of the project:

- importer works but takes about 3 seconds to import a 20MB file. I could make instantaneous by writing a custom media handler, but then it would not be possible to edit the audio track. I have considered using idle importing but there is very little doc about it and no working example, so I don't know whether it would be possible.
- decoder is ok
- no exporter yet

to do :
- fix a bug which causes an export to AIFF for example to miss the first two seconds of the file
[update : fixed]
- add support for vorbis comments (by the way, I don't think it will be possible to uptate them from iTunes since iTunes doesn't even try to edit QuickTime files. But a script would be possible)
[update : done but this doesn't help with iTunes]
- iTunes doesn't recognize FLAC files right now, it may be because of the absence of metadata
- exporter component
- maybe altivec optimizations of the FLAC API

I hope to adress some of these issues within the next few days, since I'm leaving on July the 29th and will not be able to do further work on this project until September.

cool, what will the license be?


someone has sent a patch that I have not yet applied that has an altivec version of LPC synthesis, and the author says he has some more. I am going to try to include it in the upcoming beta if it doesn't take too long to get integrated into the build system.

Josh

The same as the FLAC core, I think, i.e. open source. Now I have absolutely no notions of what GPL or BSD or whatever exactly mean, I thought I'd just release the source code along with the binary



That would be nice, for export to flac and from flac at least. The CPU load during playback is already decent and during importing the component doesn't need to decode frames, all it does is look for frame sync codes in the file and parse frame headers.

The biggest issue is currently the fact that iTunes does not recognize flac files, although my codec is based on the OggVorbis codec which is perfectly recognized in iTunes. I'll have to find out why it is so.

The second biggest issue is loading time : with all optimizations turned on it takes about 3 seconds to import 20 MB, and playback is impossible before the file has been completely imported. That will lead to gaps between tracks, as with OggVorbis files. Loading time for large FLAC files would not be acceptable either. Some parts of my code can still be further optimized but I don't expect it to get much faster.
One solution would be to use idle importing, thus allowing playback before the importing is complete, but I have never seen working sample code or decent documentation about this method. I am currently discussing this issue on the quicktime-api mailing list.
I'll post a beta-release as soon as the component is compatible with iTunes.

perfect. the FLAC libraries are BSD.


I tried the first altivec decode optimization: the testing of 400MB of 'flac -5' files dropped from 180 sec to 105 sec (42%), and that was just optimizing one routine. so it looks promising.

Josh

Here's an alpha version of the component.

Note that it really deserves the name "alpha version" !

The component for MacOSX only right now (it uses Mach-O). It should be easy to compile a Carbon, MacOS 9 compatible version but I haven't had time to check it out.

The importer and decoder should decode successfully standard FLAC stream, ie 16 bits 44100 Hz and a reasonable blocksize. It has not been tested with any other sample size or rate, nor with variable blocksize streams.
There is currently a bug with the metadata, some names (with spaces in them ?) are appended with random characters. I haven't had time to fix this for the alpha.
Even though my test files decode without problems, there are still known (and certainly unknown too) possiblities where it will fail to decode the file, which might crash or freeze QuickTime Player. Use it at your own risks.
Because of all this do not use it for important data. There is no way it could modify the original files since it opens them in read-only mode, but there might be errors in the resulting files when you save or export the movie in QuickTime, so keep the originals anyway.

Progressive importing support is on the way (in fact it works but it is still slow and very heavy on the CPU, I'll have to optimize it), but I have disabled it in the alpha. You'll have to wait for the entire file to load before playing it (currently about 3 seconds for a 20MB / 2:30 file).

There is no encoder yet.

As for iTunes support :
Right now it is not possible to drag and drop a flac file on the iTunes Window. Someone from Apple told me that this was not possible for third party codecs, except for "a few hard-coded exceptions". He told me to file a bug report concerning this. I'll ask the author of the Ogg Vorbis plugin about it, since the OggVorbis codec works in iTunes.
So to use FLAC files in iTunes, the best solution is currently to open them in QuickTime (Pro ?) Player and save them as a QuickTime movie (there is no reencoding, it is only a reference to the original FLAC file, like an alias, so it will be very small, some kB). This fixes the issue of the loading time too. There used to be an utility which did the same for Ogg files, as far as I remember, maybe it can do it for FLAC files too.
Note that to open a FLAC file in QuickTime you have to hold command-option when dropping the file on QuickTime Player.

I have not yet included the source code since part of it is still a bit of a mess and since I have not yet updated the copyright notices from the original OggVorbis Component files, so I'm not sure about license issues. I'll make it available as soon as I come back and clean it up, sorry for the inconvenience.

Thanks to Steve Nicolai from the QuickTime component project for his help and for making the source code of his component available, and to Kevin Calhoun from Apple on the quicktime-api dev list.

I'm leaving on vacation today and will be away from my computer and from internet until late August, so I won't be able to answer e-mail or to work on the project during this time. Expect an update in September... sorry for the delay.

Josh -> I will be glad to update to a new version of the library with Altivec support. I use a slightly modified version of the current API but this shouldn't be a problem.

QT FLAC Decoder (alpha version) : http://damien.drix.free.fr/FLACDecoderAlpha.zip

Please don't give this link to everybody you know, this is a beta test and it IS potentialy buggy software. Anybody who installs it should come back here and check for updates until a stable version is released.

You can send mail to malgolad@free.fr for feedback, but anyway I won't be able to read your messages until I come back.

'til september,
Damien

Alright, I will give it a try if there is a Windows version available?

Hey, it works!

Thanks Damien (and Josh). The prospect of managing my FLAC collection in iTunes has me drooling all over my PowerBook.

cool, I will try it out once FLAC 1.1.1 goes out. thanks.

Josh

I've tried this out and it works great!
It seems much less processor intensive listening to FLAC files in iTunes, than using MacAmp Lite X.
Would it be possible to write an Applescript that opens multiple FLAC files and saves them as Quicktime movies? When AAC first came out, I remember a program that did a similar thing with Quicktime. At the time iTunes couldn't handle AAC, and this program (I think it was an Applescript) was the only way to convert multiple files.

Thanks for the great work!

Andy

Oh this soooo rules! THANK YOU DDRX, YOU ROCK!

BTW, I noticed that you can open the flac files in QT via the Open in New Player... menu selection as well (there is a bit of a pause for large files). I also noticed there is an import function in iTunes, but this too does not work (I was looking for a better work around for getting the flac files into iTunes without first saving them in QT). But hey, I can now listen to flac files in iTunes, yippeeeee!!!!!

Now just imagine having your flac files on your iPod and listening to them. Better yet, imagine throwing your DAT machine away (or selling it) and replacing it with your iPod (record a show with your iPod and encode directly to a flac file). That's the ultimate for me.

Again, DDRX YOU ROCK!

Can there be a windows version? Please......

I'm back from holiday now
Thanks to all for the feedback !
I'm going to have a look at the bugs you reported, including the Toast bug (the decoding fails and the resulting AIFF files to be burned to the disk are silent).
I hope to post an update in a couple of weeks. Meanwhiles, here's the current source code :
http://damien.drix.free.fr/FLACDecoderAlpha1_Source.zip (6.3 MB)
It is still a bit untidy, especialy for the decoder and the general structure of the project

As for the Windows version, the source should compile out-of-the-box but I have absolutely no experience in compiling anything for windows or setting the compilation parameters... I'll check it out when the component is more stable, I think.

Damien

I'd like to add my voice of appreciation for this plug-in. It works great! What I like best is that my flac files now are playable from the preview pane, saving me the trouble of opening them up in MacAmp to listen to them. This helps tremendously when organizing and checking my many flacs, for example when checking songs against text files, or checking song breaks, etc.

I look forward to the day when I can listen to flacs in iTunes. Many thanks.

One program that you can use to automate this a little is QTConvert

Hope this helps some,
Cheers,
Paul

Has anyone had any joy compiling the source for windows yet?

Hello,

I think I've corrected the Toast bug and the metadata bug
I'll post an update soon, there are still some other bugs to correct.

As for iTunes support, I can't do it (no way on the QuickTime side) but maybe you can : file bug reports complaining about the fact that iTunes doesn't support 3rd party QuickTime codecs and FLAC files in particular. That's how OggVorbis came to be recognized in iTunes.

Damien

I've put in my request.... have you? If not Listen to 'da man' (Damien that is...) and request support for all supported Quicktime formats in iTunes. Here is the link for the lazy... :-)
http://www.apple.com/feedback/itunes.html