Anyone know a good place to buy the M-Audio Audiophile 24/96 in the USA? I know about the Midi Store, I was wondering if there are other places that carry the card at a reasonable price, and are reliable.

Also, if anyone has another suggestion for a card with especially good A/D conversion (and maybe a built in phono preamp), I'm interested. I don't care as much about optical stuff, or even output quality at all.

Thanks.

These guys are extremely reliable, and helpful-Cliff writes his "Cliff Notes" that can help you set the stuff up. Probably the best price you will be able to find, too. The company is one of the sponsers of the avs forums-I've been a part of that community for years now, and I have never heard of them doing somebody wrong. If you go with the ap 24/96 I suggest you buy it from them...

btw-I own the card, and it is awesome. If you get one, let me know, because we are in the same place-I have several hundred lps that need to be transferred. Comparing notes is always beneficial.

If you don't mind having a stand alone unit for A/D conversion, the ART DIO is supposed to be very good for its price (~ $160). It is also well known for providing excellent D/A conversion.

http://artproaudio.com/products_detail.asp?PRODUCTID=75

I don't own a DIO but I am certainly considering one in the near future.

If you want the best A/D conversion available get the Digital Audio Labs Card Deluxe. See it at: http://www.digitalaudio.com. It has 24/96 capability, SPDIF (digital) I/O (not optical). Best performance on the market today. A little expensive ($400) and you can get a better price than directly from DAL if you shop a bit (check out: www.leighs.com for example). Truly a high end product (find a review at www.stereophile.com, or link to it from DAL's page) - on good equipment the differences are not subtle.

Thanks to everyone. I can't afford a really expensive solution, and probably will end up going with the M-Audio Audiophile 24/96. BTW, on that store mentioned my macdaddy (Digital Connection), the card is $20 more than at "The Midi Store." Is there some reason why it would be worth paying more? Is the support really necessary, or does the 24/96 have good drivers & easy to set up?

I'll probably be keeping my SB PCI128 (which is much lighter on resources than an SB Live! or similar card) to use for Windows sound effects, etc (seems like the simpler way to go).

Probably I'll be getting the new card in a couple months, at the moment I have to pay off a new turntable .

P.S. to Macdaddy:

For cleaning up vinyl recordings, I use a slightly older version of Sound Forge (v4.5) with the "old" noise reduction plugin, that allows finding/fixing clicks & pops individually. The newer DirectX click/pop plugin isn't worth much if you value the sound quality, and after testing the Waves "restoration" click/pop eliminator, it isn't any better. The Waves "X-Crackle" (used sparingly) does seem to work rather well, for light crackling.

In another thread, I mentioned a crackling sound on some of my records, which I now think is due to previous mis-tracking... Waves "X-Crackle" cleans it up nicely. Also, a general noise-reduction plugin can be helpful used lightly (2.5-10 Db NR depending on audibility and frequency content) by taking a noiseprint immediately before the music starts playing on a track. Used heavily it can eliminate literally all background noise, but making the music sound highly artificial & "canned."

Now that we're talking high end sound cards, do any of you guys know websites where these things are reviewed/compared?

I am doubting between a Terratec and a CL Audigy, but it appears the last one isn't a true 24/96 card...

Thanks!

I was unaware that the card could be had for cheaper than at digital connection. maudio (I bought mine directly from them) was more expensive than the powerDVD bundle at dc at the time I made my purchase; I still am not sure why I didn't buy the powerdvd bundle from them. If you are going to use the card as part of an htpc setup (which I do as well), you might want to try the TT software DVD bundle (which is more $$$). Sorry to give you a bum steer-I thought $180 USD (the dc price for the powerdvd bundle) was as cheap as you could get retail. Out of curiosity where did you find it cheaper?

The support from DC is free to all; simply start at the Cliff's Notes page links to the latest, stable drivers and provides a comprehensive installation how-to...

I am interested in a link to Waves software (never heard of it), and to where you bought your turntable. Thanks (in advance)...

DigitalMan-can you point me to an article where the card you link to and the ap 24/96 are compared head to head? Thanks...

afik-the DACs used on the ap 24/96 are the best available, and that is an important difference...

http://www.cdbm.com/shop/detail.cgi?id=128600

I don't know if the above store is worth trusting tho. Anyone bought there before? BTW, I have PowerDVD already, so I wouldn't pay more to get it.

Edit -- links to Waves software:

http://www.waves.com/

Another link to Waves software:

news:alt.binaries.sounds.utilities



Cheers...

Not a website, but in the new c't (http://www.heise.de/ct/) there's a big test of high-end soundcards. Their tests are very reliable. This evening, when i read the review, i can post a summary.

This is cool. I was just talking to a friend about my desire to start transfering my vinyl to my hard drive, and when I got home I came across this thread. The links that were posted here are a great starting point and I've spent several hours reading and researching. It's got me really motivated to get this project started, but there is still some stuff I'm a little confused about.

I do not have an amplifier with a digital output. If I hook up my amplifier from its line-out to my soundcards line-in, there is the possibility that "noise" can be introduced into the resulting wav from such things as ground loop, or the internal "noisiness" of the computer. Does connecting to the soundcard via its SPDIF, either from an amplifier with a digital output or an external a/d converter (such as the ART DIO mentioned earlier in this thread), eliminate the possibility of these types of "noise"?

My soundcard, TBS Montego II, has an SPDIF connector, but apparently this soundcard "resamples the SPDIF input to an onboard clock rate, so it does not allow for bit-perfect transfer of external digital audio." Also, from what I've read, the sound quality from using this cards line-in for recording is generally considered to be just passable, but not great.

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~abcomp/lp-cdr.htm

Because of these reasons I would want to get a new soundcard (such as the Audiophile 24/96 or the Card Deluxe). Then I would also want to probably get either a new amplifier with a digital output or an external a/d converter.

This leads me to two other questions. From what I've been able to read about both of those soundcards, they often don't perform that well when it comes to games. I also play a lot of games on my machine. Is it possible to have two soundcards installed? I could keep my existing TBS for normal Windows audio and games and use the second card only for recording to the hard drive and playing digital music through my stereo system. If this is not possible, does anyone know of any soundcards that would be good for fulfilling both of these functions?

Finally, does anyone know of any exteranl a/d/a converters that connect to a computer via USB or Firewire rather than SPDIF, or is there some technical reason why this would not be possible or recommended? My thinking on this comes from reading about the Stereo-Link device (http://www/stereo-link.com). It is an external d/a converter that connects via USB to your stereo system, bypassing the soundcard completely.

So, ultimatley, does any of this really matter that much. On my current stereo system, I might not be able to hear the differences in quality between the various soundcards, etc. But, my thinking is that if I'm going to undertake a project like this, I might as well try to use fairly decent equipment to do it.

Thanks for any input.

Rob

If you get a good sound card such as the Audiophile 2496, you should'n care much about the noise induced at the A/D stage of the card, these cards are designed to do a good job even at the noisy environment of the PC insides. The CardDeluxe is even better at this, but considering that the inherent noise of the best vinyl reproduction is far above the A/D added noise of these cards, you don't need such a good sound card, the Audiophile is just more than enough. About vinyl noise, see:

http://www.pcavtech.com/play-rec/rega-2

These are the preliminary measurements made by Arny Krueger with of a good, second-hand Rega turntable.

Considering this, even your Montego could be enough over this noise issue, maybe not so good on other parameters such as frequency response, see:

http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/montego

The only problem you could still have is a ground loop, but I believe (I'm not sure now) that this could happen even if you do the process via a coaxial SPDIF cable. With an optical SPDIF cable, you would surely avoid ground loops. In my experience, I have not experimented ground loops when connecting any of my amp line-outs to my Audiophile line-in.

Hope this helps.

Edit: I forgot, I have a TB Santa Cruz and an Audiophile 2496 in the same PC, with no problems.

Cool! I understand German but haven't got c't so I'll wait for your summary !

BTW for gamers SB Audigy seems the best solution but I still wonder why? I see terratec cards supporting all that EAX stuff too, so is there something special in this Audigy processor? Or perhaps the 5.1 option?

KikeG,

Thanks for the input. After I made my post and kept thinking about it, I kinda came to the same conclusion. As usual I was over-thinking the situation and making it all too complicated.



I guess I am am unclear as to how Windows handles two soundcards. How do you specify which card is used?


deej_1977,

From what I've been reading, generally SB soundcards are not held in very high regard by those who might be considered audiophiles.

I did, however, check out TerraTec, specifically the DMX 6fire 24/96.

http://www.terratec.net/ttus/default.htm

It looks very interesting, especially the 5 1/4" front panel module that allows for direct connection of a turntable or cassette deck. The problem, of course, is that you must have an open 5 1/4" bay on your machine, which I don't have. Also, they recommend a PIII 1 GHz, which I don't have. So, I am probably leaning towards the Audiophile 24/96.

http://www.midiman.net/products/m-audio/audiophile.php

Also, Stanton has new turntables that have both line level outputs and SPDIF outputs, so they could be connected directly to the Audiophile's line or digital inputs. It could be very handy having the turntable on the desk next to the computer.

http://www.stantonmagnetics.com/alpha44/tt_str8-100.asp
or
http://www.stantonmagnetics.com/alpha44/tt_str8-80.asp

Just my opinion, but Pcavtech uses some questionable methodologies. According to the tests there, my Soundblaster PCI128 should also be more than adequate for recording vinyl (well it is, sorta), and in fact most of the Soundblaster cards measuring "very good" (or better), which he states this:

"Very Good: Deviations from accurate response probably won't be audible to sensitive, critical listeners using excellent, and/or demanding program material and excellent associated equipment. Audible differences might be noticed if there are a relatively large number of passes through equipment of this quality. Suitable for non-critical professional or non-professional use. Only amplifiers, digital audio, cables and signal processing equipment can be in this category at this time."

Hmmm... so the SB Live! qualifies for the above category? And my PCI128 card is rated higher than the Live! in the frequency response category ("very good" across the board).

I realize it's just his opinions based on not-too-extensive testing, but... I dunno. I find it hard to believe that few could tell the diff. between the A/D converter in the PCI128 or SB Live!, and the A/D converter in the Audiophile 24/96, or (implied in the ratings) that the SB Live! is excellent for driving even the most expensive speakers.

Usually in the individual programs. The "Control Panel/Multimedia" is used mainly for system sounds, but programs like WinAMP, Sound Forge, Cool Edit, etc. have selections in the "options" menu for which driver to use.

Sorry for not posting a summary... and i'll be away this evening, but i promise to post it tomorrow.

About the Audigy... well, as most of us would agree, this soundcard's general audio quality is worse than advertised, and some things are downright inacceptable (attenuation after 16 KHz...). But still, the EAX effects are top notch. I had an SB Live myself, and i heard SB Audigys doing in-game EAX stuff. I must say, they're unbeaten on this field. Not concerning the "3d impression" one gets... only the quality of the various effects.

Also, according to an older c't test, this card produces the least slowdown in games. Yes, some soundcards really bring the framerates down in games. I wonder why this is so rarely tested... with graphics cards, every single frame counts, but here... . Anyways, despite all the downsides, i would still recommend this card for a hardcore gamer.

Dude don't worry about it! No obligations or something... We all do this in our spare time...

Anyway, I do play a lot of games so SB is an obvious choice, but I also have lots of Vinyl lying around and lots of MDs which I want to archive to HD when I have my new PC (which will be a Athlon 1800+ w/ 512 MB DDR333 & Geforce Ti4400). That's why, as Rocketsauce said, the terratec cards are very interesting. I think I have some more perusing to do...

Welcome to the club!

In case you haven't found them yet, there have been a few earlier threads (with good linkage) here in the HA forums..

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/showth...25&pagenumber=1

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/showth...highlight=vinyl



A lot of your questions are covered in the other threads, and you'll find what we've been finding are the important points, getting the TT set up properly, cleaning the record, getting familiar with various software cleaning products..

Much is covered in Clive's LP-CD FAQ (linked back on this thread) or linked from his site.

Soundcard differences.. yeah, unless you have a <$5000 sound system, I don't think you're going to be noticing much difference. Especially if you're talking 24 bit cards. What is different will be other things, preventing ground loops, setting up the cartridge/TT, cleaning the records well, not banging on the table or having your computer vibrating the table that the TT is sitting on during recording... (yould be surprised what they'll pick up!)

Audiophile sites are good for info, but most of the way high end stuff applies to a high end system.. where you're primarily listening to the records. Unless you want that too.. you don't have to spend really huge amounts of money.. So, buying a Lehmann Black Cube phono preamp for $800, probably isn't a wise decision if you're just planning on burning down to MP3's. And, you can make surprisingly good recordings on not very much outlay. But, as you say, starting with pretty decent gear is a worthy thing..

Yes, nearly all of the more "pro" cards do poor or not at all support of Windows sound, usually in the newer 3d sound effects. The Terratech mentioned supposedly does support regular Win sound, and even EAX effects, but not perfectly according to a review I read. That 6fire card even has a phono pre built in, but whether it's good, great, or good enough for our purposes, I don't know..

But, most of them you can run with your SB card, and have both worlds covered.

As per the Audigy.. hate to be an apologist, it is misrepresented as a "24bit" card, but I haven't seen this 16Khz attenuation people mention, and for positive notes, it got me another 15db of dynamic range (noise floor went from -65 to around -80 in changing from a Live) and cost $60 as the OEM model.. So, it has a few socially redeeming factors...

BTW.. Apparently there is a bit of a problem when testing with RightMark, that might give bad looking results that aren't real, this has been used for several test reviews on the net: http://audio.rightmark.org/news.html

When you get back, CiTay.. what's the link for the Audigy 16Khz problem? I've been trying to find it again with no success, want to read up on that..

I was at Guitar Center today (in Los Angeles) and they sell many of the high end soundcards, including the Audiophile 2496 (for $150). I believe they have quite a few locations around the country, so check them out if there's one near you. They have a store locator at their site.

http://www.guitarcenter.com/

Several different sales people familiar with these products at two separate stores (LA & Sherman Oaks) said the sound of the Echo Mia (http://www.echoaudio.com/) is noticably better than the Audiophile. Two of them said that they had used the Audiophile until they heard the Echo card. Of course, the Echo Mia was $200. Also, the Mia does not have a MIDI input and the analog inputs/outputs use TRS connectors rather than RCA.

Anyway, the original reason that I went to Guitar Center was to look at turntables. It's suprisingly difficult (even here in LA) to find a store that has more than one or two models or even sells them (unless you're looking for high end). I went there because I knew they had a decent selection, primarily for DJs. Since a lot of the vinyl I'll be transferring is 12" singles, one of the features I really wanted was pitch control. So, I bought the Stanton STR8-100 for $300 (which I mentioned in an earlier post). It has an SPDIF out as well as an analog out that is switchable between phono and line level. I think this gives me some versatility when it comes to hooking it up to a soundcard or any amp/receiver (ie., whether or not to use a separate phono preamp). My problem now is deciding which cartridge to buy. Most of the ones they had at GC were DJ cartridges, but since my concern is more towards getting a good sound rather than mixing or scratching, I wasn't sure what to get. Suggestions welcome.

Just thought I'd share.

I'll be darned! :eek: There's a Guitar Center 8 miles away from here... will have to give them a call re: the Audiophile 24/96.

Thanks a million Rocketsauce!

Heh.. I hear those DJ cart's track HEAVY.. (4-6 grams) good for staying in a groove as you bang on the turntable, but not so good for long life of your records.. (Thats why they call it "scratchin"??)

I can reccomend the one I got.. the Shure94e, a good one for the cheap price of $50.

Here's a review, where audiophiles grudgingly pat it on the head, despite it's low price:

http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/shure94_e.html

Actually, they tried to get me to buy one of the DJ cartridges when I bought the turntable, but I had already done a little reading so I knew that's not really what I wanted for my purposes. Coincidentally, after a little Googling (I think I did come across that review at TNT), I came to the conclusion that the Shure M94E was probably the best to get without spending a huge amount of money. I was back at GC today to get some cables and had them order the cart for me for $50.

The Shure website has a few comparison charts of their different types of needles which I found handy.

http://www.shure.com/catphono.html

Be sure and do some reading on how to set up (install) your cart properly, or let someone who knows how (audio store) do it.. Did my own, since the local high end place wanted $50 to do it for me, and my TT dosen't have half the adjustments that the serious ones do.. YMMV

Jon