Hydrogenaudio Forums > AAC @ 128kbps listening test discussion

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Garf

Feb 9 2004, 13:13

QUOTE(Alexander Lerch @ Feb 9 2004, 09:06 PM)

If the participation at the listening test would be without restriction, and compaact! would rate good, nobody would believe it now anyway.

It's possible to make a comparison between 'trusted' users and outside users. If the results disagree significantly, you'll know something is amiss.

JohnV

Feb 9 2004, 13:14

QUOTE(rjamorim @ Feb 9 2004, 09:02 PM)

-NCTU is in as an anchor.

I'm not sure NCTU is a very good anchor. It may be too good for anchor in samples which don't have strong attacks.

rjamorim

Feb 9 2004, 13:16

QUOTE(JohnV @ Feb 9 2004, 05:10 PM)

How strong this encryption is? What crypto system it uses?

ElGamal and BlowFish, in a Public Key environment (the test admin keeps the private key, as proper)

I believe you need to be a very good hacker to be able to fool the system.

Edit: More info:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=135744

JohnV

Feb 9 2004, 13:17

QUOTE(Garf @ Feb 9 2004, 09:13 PM)

QUOTE(Alexander Lerch @ Feb 9 2004, 09:06 PM)

If the participation at the listening test would be without restriction, and compaact! would rate good, nobody would believe it now anyway.

It's possible to make a comparison between 'trusted' users and outside users. If the results disagree significantly, you'll know something is amiss.

Good point. And with strong enough ecryption implementation, nobody won't even try any foul play..

Heh.. funny, but maybe this troll incident brought something good after all: It's definitely good that the encryption will be in use now!

schnofler

Feb 9 2004, 13:19

Well, sucks that the poll didn't work out.

QUOTE(rjamorim)

-Compaact and Real are in
-Winamp is out because it seems to be broken, so it would be unfair to test it now.

OK by me. I would have liked to see Winamp in the test (instead of Real), but if it's broken, well, can't change it.

QUOTE(rjamorim)

-NCTU is in as an anchor.

I wouldn't mind that, if it's really clear that it is considerably inferior to all the other codecs. Otherwise, I'd prefer keeping the field of real contenders down to 5.

QUOTE(rjamorim)

-The test will be encrypted and will require Java ABC-HR.

When were you planning on starting the test, again? I'm sure you mentioned it earlier, but I can't find it now. If you're not planning on starting it this weekend, I'll rework some of the encryption code and keep that source closed, so cheating will get even harder (I said it before, it's impossible to completely eliminate the possibility to cheat, simply because you need to give the user the right to encode his own results).

rjamorim

Feb 9 2004, 13:26

QUOTE(schnofler @ Feb 9 2004, 05:19 PM)

OK by me. I would have liked to see Winamp in the test (instead of Real), but if it's broken, well, can't change it.

Actually, I think it can be changed. A friend of mine contacted a developer inside nullsoft that will try to fix that. He has been told the deadline is tuesday afternoon next week :B

QUOTE

I wouldn't mind that, if it's really clear that it is considerably inferior to all the other codecs. Otherwise, I'd prefer keeping the field of real contenders down to 5.

I think I'll create a poll for anchor neverthless.

QUOTE

Perfect with me. The test start the next Wednesday (the 18th), so I need it ready by Wednesday morning.

bond

Feb 9 2004, 13:30

QUOTE(rjamorim @ Feb 9 2004, 08:02 PM)

-Winamp is out because it seems to be broken, so it would be unfair to test it now.

Flames? Opinions? Comments?

we could wait (like for vorbis 1.0.1

)

guest0101

Feb 9 2004, 13:35

Would like to see WinAmp in the test (if it is fixed by then). Perhaps that could be the "anchor"?

rjamorim

Feb 9 2004, 13:36

QUOTE(bond @ Feb 9 2004, 05:30 PM)

we could wait (like for vorbis 1.0.1

)

Vorbis was a f***ing scam that promised the release for "next week", but took months instead.

Nullsoft isn't promising anything, so it's even more risky. So, no. If they don't deliver on time, they're out.

menno

Feb 9 2004, 14:48

I did some tests with FAAD2 on Winamp AAC encoder generated files. And I can exactly reproduce the Winamp decoder output in FAAD2, by limiting the TNS filtering to 5 kHz. So this is surely a decoder only problem, the encoder is safe to use.

Menno

MGuti

Feb 9 2004, 15:34

stupid troll....and please don't exclude members by time on the board. i've only been on here since early january but i would hate to be excluded.

that haveing been said, i'm glad to see compaact is in, its a shame that winamp is out (in out in out where is it now?), and real is iffy IMO. because they have a music store, i feel that it should be tested (a reason to buy from real instead of apple) but unless the container issue is fixed i won't end up using them.

NCTU might not be a good idea for anchor. it might be another Xing. it would make me more comfortable to have a piss-poor encoder as anchor instead of a possible contender. if the god's have chosen NCTU, so be it.

askoff

Feb 9 2004, 16:34

I'm fine with the selected codeks. I was just wondering how is this encryption efekting us testers? I mean how is the test canged comparing to mp3 test?

ancl

Feb 9 2004, 16:51

QUOTE(askoff @ Feb 9 2004, 11:34 PM)

I'm fine with the selected codeks. I was just wondering how is this encryption efekting us testers? I mean how is the test canged comparing to mp3 test?

The only difference for the testers is that you have to use another ABX program. (And that you can't modify your result after testing

rjamorim

Feb 9 2004, 18:45

QUOTE(ancl @ Feb 9 2004, 08:51 PM)

The only difference for the testers is that you have to use another ABX program. (And that you can't modify your result after testing

Right. When you load the .ecf (Encrypted Config File) in Java ABC/HR, the files are randomized and loaded in proper places like it would happen if you loaded a .txt file in Win32 ABC/HR

Then, you save the results in an encrypted results file (I don't remember the extension right now), that you attach to a mail (preferably all results zipped into one) and send to me. At home I have the decrypting key.

Of course, once the test is finished, I'll make the decrypting key available so that you can check out your own results.

Regards;

Roberto.

rjamorim

Feb 9 2004, 22:10

I will personally paint the town red with the corpse of the first guy messing with my new poll.

kwanbis

Feb 10 2004, 05:54

QUOTE(rjamorim @ Feb 10 2004, 04:10 AM)

I will personally paint the town red with the corpse of the first guy messing with my new poll.

you are being to violent latelly

askoff

Feb 10 2004, 08:35

QUOTE(rjamorim @ Feb 9 2004, 04:45 PM)

Right. When you load the .ecf (Encrypted Config File) in Java ABC/HR, the files are randomized and loaded in proper places like it would happen if you loaded a .txt file in Win32 ABC/HR

So if I open the config file twice, samples are in different scorebar?

rjamorim

Feb 10 2004, 08:39

QUOTE(askoff @ Feb 10 2004, 12:35 PM)

So if I open the config file twice, samples are in different scorebar?

Yes. And the same happens with Win32 ABC/HR

duartix

Feb 11 2004, 13:13

QUOTE

Of course, once the test is finished, I'll make the decrypting key available so that you can check out your own results.

Kudos Roberto for providing a way to see our own tests. (For me, my own test is as important as all other users tests together). Last test I took, all formats were transparent for me, except of course for the anchor and the format I was using for archives, so even though the encryption is unfortunately needed, so is the ability to check our own limitations.
Thanks!

Now I guess there is only one question to be answered. LC or HE?
I guess this is like going to a XVid forum and ask people wether they use motion precision 5 or 6.
If we can get higher quality from HE why not use it? Because our portable won't suport it? Most players don't even support AAC, period.
New players will surely do, but what will you do then? Re-archive your 300(+) CD collection with HE? The only time I archived, it involved bringing around 30 CDs to my job everyday, and it took me over 2 weeks.
That is probably why they are still in OGG with just the most recent ones being backed up to Musepack.

I vote for HE, but I guess you can roll your eyes out 720º, and start another poll.

rjamorim

Feb 11 2004, 13:16

QUOTE(duartix @ Feb 11 2004, 05:13 PM)

Now I guess there is only one question to be answered. LC or HE?

HE is for low bitrates only (80kbps and lower). This test will be at 128kbps

duartix

Feb 11 2004, 13:33

Thanks for clearing that, I had no idea!

I thought is was something like a higher quality mode...

tigre

Feb 12 2004, 09:41

2 Things:

1. From the 64kbps test and the 128kbps mp3 test I got the impression that my "experiencia" sample is too easy too encode / doesn't cause enough problems. I'd like to provide a similiar sample (same genre, female voice) that's harder to encode. In case you don't agree, please tell me - than I can stop spending time on this.

2. It has been said before here and in another thread - and I noticed it with the files I encoded for testing: Latest Nero encoder seems to give too high bitrate at medium setting. (135... 145-155...165 kbps here). Is your decision about use of medium fixed already?

rjamorim

Feb 12 2004, 09:44

QUOTE(tigre @ Feb 12 2004, 01:41 PM)

1. From the 64kbps test and the 128kbps mp3 test I got the impression that my "experiencia" sample is too easy too encode / doesn't cause enough problems. I'd like to provide a similiar sample (same genre, female voice) that's harder to encode. In case you don't agree, please tell me - than I can stop spending time on this.

Oh, yes, please. It would be good to replace part of the samples, before people start getting tired of them.

QUOTE

2. It has been said before here and in another thread - and I noticed it with the files I encoded for testing: Latest Nero encoder seems to give too high bitrate at medium setting. (135... 145-155...165 kbps here). Is your decision about use of medium fixed already?

No, I didn't do the bitrate deviation analysis yet. I'm planning to do that this weeked. I'll probably settle for the bitrate that comes closer to 128.

tigre

Feb 12 2004, 14:21

OT discussion about results of multiformat tests split here. No more related discussion in this thread, please. Thank you.
____________________________________________

I've uploaded a sample to replace "experiencia" sample here .

Edit: I've tested it with 3 of the AAC codecs used in the test. This sample is comparable to the better ones in 128kbps lame test, I'd say. So I recommend to replace 'experiencia' by it.

rjamorim

Feb 16 2004, 00:07

Thank-you tigre.

This is what I planned for sample replacements:

polonaise -> fossiles. Because everybody considered polonaise too damn hard in the MP3 test, let alone in this test.

Illinois -> fatboy. Illinois it a cool song, but it's also quite easy, and makes you sick of it too soon. Also, I want to see codecs bleed, that's why I want to replace it with fatboy

(although fatboy will probably lead to bitrate issues)

experiencia -> Quizás (read above posts) - again, a too easy sample.

EnolaGay -> OrdinaryWorld - by Duran Duran (a New Wave replacement) because in the MP3 test codecs got nearly all tied, I.E, the sample isn't good to diferentiate codecs, it seems. I hope the guitar play in the intro of Ordinary World will bring problems to some codecs.

@ErikS: I will look at the samples Guruboolez sent me to replace riteofspring. I'll upload it and post here as soon as I find something suitable.

Do I suck? Do I rule? Please post.

Regards;

Roberto.

ViPER1313

Feb 16 2004, 01:01

WOOT! The return of fatboy

- I don't want to hear anyone complaining about how all the codecs sound transparent on that one

Stux

Feb 16 2004, 02:49

QUOTE(karl_lillevold @ Feb 8 2004, 12:49 PM)

QUOTE(bond @ Feb 7 2004, 05:24 PM)

i also dont want that real with its .ra sh*t gets popular

RM is just another container format, playable in many players these days, but I have already mentioned that AAC wrapped in RM is just a temporary solution. Our alternative file writers were not ready in time for Beta. RealPlayer 10 Gold and RealProducer (Helix Producer) 10 Gold will write AAC to another format...

The Real (HE-)AAC encoder was licensed from Coding Technologies, is the only HE capable encoder in addition to Nero (CT did invent aacPlus/HE by the way), and their AAC base encoder probably started out from a similar codebase as the FhG AAC encoder. Personally I would be very curious how it compares to the rest of the AAC encoders out there. "Installing" Helix Producer is as simple as unzipping the files, and if included in the test, I will make sure Roberto has no trouble whatsoever with the encoding or installation (don't want to repeat trying to install RealPlayer..

), as well as losslessly convert the .ra files to whichever format is preferred, .aac, or .m4a.

As a sidenote, I think it is a good idea to be very clear about which is the actual codec provider, for example for WinAmp, who did they license the encoder from? For Real, like I mentioned, this would be Coding Technologies.

I would *really* like to see Coding Technologies' AAC encoder in the listening test.

Either in the form of Real's implementation, or using CT's actual stand-alone encoder.

(I believe you can use Real Splitter+3ivx Muxer to convert from RM to MP4)

Stux

Feb 16 2004, 03:01

QUOTE(Latexxx @ Feb 9 2004, 01:22 AM)

Nero
iTunes
Real
FAAC
Compaact
Anchor

I agree

Stux

Feb 16 2004, 03:24

QUOTE(rjamorim @ Feb 10 2004, 06:02 AM)

OK, now a fucker decided to mess my poll.

My patience is growing too thin, so I'll tell you what I plan to do:

-Compaact and Real are in
-Winamp is out because it seems to be broken, so it would be unfair to test it now.
-NCTU is in as an anchor.
-The test will be encrypted and will require Java ABC-HR.

Flames? Opinions? Comments?

BTW: Everything is discusseable, except encryption. It is definitely going to happen.

Regards;

Roberto.

Looking forward to the test... sorry for not reading through all the drama before initially replying

Stux

Feb 16 2004, 03:51

Re: Anchors,

I'm actually partial to a very simple lowpass or something, ie something to just make it at least *easy* to place the last contender...

Oh, that horid crackling sound... that's the bad bad one

Atlantis

Feb 16 2004, 05:48

Hi Roberto,
I'd like to see featured in this test a live recording sample like this one

bond

Feb 16 2004, 07:03

what about including a speech sample with low volume music in the background (like a movie background)

this would satisfy the video nerds and would maybe make the comparsion between the codecs easier?

rjamorim

Feb 16 2004, 09:10

QUOTE(bond @ Feb 16 2004, 11:03 AM)

No problem. But please provide the sample and suggest what sample should be replaced.

@Atlantis: Please suggest what should be replaced too.

bond

Feb 16 2004, 11:47

QUOTE(rjamorim @ Feb 16 2004, 04:10 PM)

QUOTE(bond @ Feb 16 2004, 11:03 AM)

No problem. But please provide the sample and suggest what sample should be replaced.

hm best would be a sample from a dts source (and maybe with english language

)

i can only provide a german ac3 source, if thats also ok?

what to replace? hm dunno, maybe waiting cause it was already used in the first aac test too?

rjamorim

Feb 16 2004, 11:53

QUOTE(bond @ Feb 16 2004, 03:47 PM)

i can only provide a german ac3 source, if thats also ok?

I would personally prefer LPCM...

QUOTE

what to replace? hm dunno, maybe waiting cause it was already used in the first aac test too?

No, Waiting is perfect for killing samples tenderly. It must stay.

bond

Feb 16 2004, 12:48

QUOTE(rjamorim @ Feb 16 2004, 06:53 PM)

QUOTE(bond @ Feb 16 2004, 03:47 PM)

i can only provide a german ac3 source, if thats also ok?

I would personally prefer LPCM...

hm lpcm is used for dvd movie sound? i thought only ac3 and dts?

rjamorim

Feb 16 2004, 12:59

QUOTE(bond @ Feb 16 2004, 04:48 PM)

hm lpcm is used for dvd movie sound?

I don't know. But I would prefer LPCM neverthless

Of course, if it's not available, DTS would be the way to go. AC3 isn't a good idea considering it's already quite compressed.

Continuum

Feb 16 2004, 13:59

QUOTE(bond @ Feb 16 2004, 07:48 PM)

hm lpcm is used for dvd movie sound? i thought only ac3 and dts?

It is for Music DVDs. Maybe some opera recitative?

bond

Feb 16 2004, 14:18

QUOTE(Continuum @ Feb 16 2004, 08:59 PM)

Maybe some opera recitative?

but serious, anyone having a nice dts source from a movie dvd?

rjamorim

Feb 16 2004, 14:30

QUOTE(bond @ Feb 16 2004, 06:18 PM)

but serious, anyone having a nice dts source from a movie dvd?

I only have from an Eagles concert. My only DVD with DTS

Atlantis

Feb 16 2004, 14:32

QUOTE(rjamorim @ Feb 16 2004, 05:10 PM)

@Atlantis: Please suggest what should be replaced too.

Uhm, I'm unsure about this...

Anyway, I think BigYellow could be replaced, in the 128 MP3 test all codecd were tied (except itunes implementation).

All is IMO, obviously

rjamorim

Feb 16 2004, 15:57

Hrm... your sample is interesting, but from hearing to it, it seems to be potentially very easy on codecs :/

rjamorim

Feb 16 2004, 16:10

OK, some more replacement suggestions:

- Polonaise will no longer be replaced with Fossiles, but with Guruboolez' Brahms - Danse Hongroise 6. So it gets replaced by another piano sample.

- riteofspring will be replaced with Mahler - Symphonie 3, also submitted by Guruboolez.

Any comments? Tonight I'll freeze the samples list and start encoding/packing/uploading.

Thanks to Guruboolez for providing those samples.

Regards;

Roberto.

tigre

Feb 16 2004, 16:11

QUOTE(rjamorim @ Feb 16 2004, 11:57 PM)

Hrm... your sample is interesting, but from hearing to it, it seems to be potentially very easy on codecs :/

I've tested this sample with 2 of the codecs that will be in the test at (- if VBR - settings aiming at) 128kbps.
There were more then one for me easily abx'able differences in both cases but nothing really obvious/noticable to me without comparing to the original. So ABC/HR ratings would have been between ~4 and ~4.5. IMO there are some sounds in this sample that might cause more problems for other contenders (I won't talk about details publicly before the test) I'm not sure if this sample will help to get significant differences between codecs.

rjamorim

Feb 16 2004, 16:14

QUOTE(tigre @ Feb 16 2004, 08:11 PM)

I'm not sure if this sample will help to get significant differences between codecs.

Good point. Can anyone else suggest live recordings?

Edit: So here is the samples list as of now:

BigYellow
DaFunk
fatboy
gone
Hongroise
Mahler
mybloodrusts
NewYorkCity
OrdinaryWorld
Quizas
Scars
Waiting

tigre

Feb 16 2004, 16:30

QUOTE(rjamorim @ Feb 17 2004, 12:14 AM)

Can anyone else suggest live recordings?

I can have a look if I find something quickly...

BTW: I would test a bit before suggesting something - so can you please tell what settings will be used with comaact and nero?

rjamorim

Feb 16 2004, 16:48

QUOTE(tigre @ Feb 16 2004, 08:30 PM)

BTW: I would test a bit before suggesting something - so can you please tell what settings will be used with comaact and nero?

Nero: -internet
Keep in mind the test will use a DLL that officially will only be released with next Nero version:
http://pessoal.onda.com.br/rjamorim/aacenc_v2620.zip

Compaact: VBR 5

tigre

Feb 16 2004, 18:44

I had no luck finding a hard to encode live sample. What about using Layla sample, or drop using a live sample and use this instead?

KpeX

Feb 16 2004, 20:32

QUOTE(rjamorim @ Feb 16 2004, 10:59 AM)

QUOTE(bond @ Feb 16 2004, 04:48 PM)

hm lpcm is used for dvd movie sound?

I don't know. But I would prefer LPCM neverthless

Of course, if it's not available, DTS would be the way to go. AC3 isn't a good idea considering it's already quite compressed.

LPCM is definitely within DVD specs, but the only DVDs I know of that use it are music DVDs - defeating the purpose of finding a movie soundtrack sample.

I would be just as wary to use a DTS source as an AC3 source. IMO the compression quality isn't that much different from AC3 despite the fact that DTS uses ridiculously high bitrates.

askoff

Feb 16 2004, 22:31

How about true killer sample, what Guruboolez uploaded once IIRC. biniou.flac

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