Hi, I have tried the latest Easy CD DA Extractor build.
The new feature to copy protected audio cds is really impressive....
I have tried to copy Al Green's latest cd that is cds200 latest build protected and I don't get any clicks.
This is the best result I got since I started all my test.
Better results than EAC or Plextools.
Good work.
Giò

cool. good to know...

i haven't had a problem with EAC secure mode yet for CopyControl CDs (is this CDS200?).

if i encounter a click i'll give Easy CDDA a shot

[edit] ah, it is CopyControl... and Audio Bullys ripped just fine for me. good to know secure burning is good with ALL damage done to a CD, unintentional or intentional

Interesting. Can you give some more details?
- What drive did you use (did you try different ones)?
- How long did extraction take (= extraction speed)?
- In what way were the results better than EAC/Plextools?
- Have you tried EAC with burst mode/lowest possible speed (if necessary set with Nero Drivespeed or similar)?

Hi Tigre,
For now I have tried only with my Lite-On 163 drive but I'll test it with my other drives too and I post here my results.
The extraction speed is about at 0,8X, similar to the one I get using EAC in secure mode.
The results are better that EAC and Plextools because I get clicks with them and no click with my latest test with Easy CD DA Extractor.
I have no graphical test, only hearing test.
Tried with EAC at lowest speed in burst mode: clicks.
For me now is the only software that completely avoids clicks generated by cds200.

That's very interesting. This would mean that some kind of interpolation is performed by software. I'll check myself...

Yes, maybe.
I think something is changing in the latest days....
Many software developers are working to solve this audio protections matters.
I tried the latest Blindwritebuild which has the new "audio" profile.
It works surely better than previous version but I still get minor clicks.
Soon I'll try to copy the same album with other drives usind Easy CD DA Extractor and then I let you know.
I would be glad to see other test made by other people with the same soft here....

Can you please tell what settings you've used with Easy CD-DA? I'd like to reproduce your results without much RTFMing / testing. Thank you.

These are the settings I used:
Nothing special, I have followed the tips from Poikosoft website:

Contary to giodeluigi's experience, I briefly tested Easy CDDA's "Error Recovery & Repair" mode, but still got clicks on a CDS200 disc with my drive.

Comparing Easy CDDA's "Error Recovery & Repair" rip with EAC's "Burst" mode showed different CRCs, but clicks were heard at similar points in the track.

as far as my experience goes, it is more depending on the CD-ROM drive, as i said, i couldn't make a copy with my laptops cd-rw/dvd combo drive, traying EAC, dbpoweramp, cdex, CloneCD, et all, but i did it prety easy with another cd-rom drive i have with dbpa.

OK. First test finished.

Plextor PX-W121032A, CD: Herbert Grönemeyer - Mensch (CDS200)

EAC: 0.95pb4, Ahead ASPI
"Retrieve native TOC" was necessary for EAC recognising all tracks correctly
Extraction in Secure mode, C2 disabled, speed set to 4x (to avoid 'gap of silence after 10 seconds' problem) = settings as usual for 'C2-damaged' CDs
-> Result: No audible problems like clicks, gaps

Easy CD-DA 6.5.5.1, native ASPI
All tracks listed correctly without any TOC-related actions
Extraction with Read mode: 'Error Recovery and Repair', 4x speed (at faster speed 'gap of silence problem with this software too as expected), otherwise default settings
-> Result: No audible problems

Extraction speed was slow (-> 4x speed set) for both programs, Easy CD-DA was somewhat faster IIRC.

Wave substraction (after manual offset correction) with CEP:
-> Both extractions are bit-identical

In CEP spectral view one can see still obvious clicks caused by interpolation.

Conclusion: Here Easy CD-DA doesn't improve what the drive returns in any way (no software interpolation using C2 data returned by the drive). Easy CD-DA handles TOC manipulation better than EAC, but saying Easy CD-DA gives 'perfect results with CDS200 protected discs', like the thread title suggests, is an exagerated/overgeneralised statement.

Great test! Thanks a lot Tigre.
Anyway for me is a great experience since I wasn't able to get a good copy without clicks with any software while this latest build of Easy CD DA Extractor do the job!
So, is good for me even if I see that is not working for all (desigrid).
I hope to see some other tests here.

Part 2:

LG DRD-8120B, same CD

EAC:
All tracks listed correctly without any TOC-related actions
Extraction in Secure mode, C2 disabled, full speed (no 'gap of silence' problems with this drive)
Speed: 5.8x
-> Result: 2 audible clicks in one silent/calm track

Easy CD-DA 6.5.5.1, native ASPI
All tracks listed correctly without any TOC-related actions
Extraction with Read mode: 'Error Recovery and Repair', full speed, otherwise default settings
Speed: 4.3x
-> Result: No audible problems

My suspicion: Easy CD-DA rips with lower speed here resulting in a different performance of the drive's internal interpolation. Re-ripped with EAC at lowest possible speed (7.9x) -> same result

Wave substraction (after manual offset correction) with CEP + screenshots (with = 500 samples):


Ripped with Plextor drive (1st test), EAC + Easy CD-DA were bit-identical


LG drive + Easy CD-DA 'Error Recovery and Repair'


LG drive + EAC - wrong samples are clearly visible (= audible click)


Difference between Easy CD-DA and EAC with LG drive

The difference between the Plextor rips and the LG & Easy CD-DA rip was small, maximum difference of sample values: 120, no audible difference

Conclusion: With the LG drive Easy CD-DA clearly beats EAC. If ripping 'damaged' CDs results in audible clicks with EAC, trying Easy CD-DA is a good idea.

I'd like to know how Easy CD-DA gets these results. It seems like only single samples are interpolated, so it knows what it does, maybe from CU errors reported by the drive? But why wasn't any interpolation performed on the Plextor rip (this drive reports CU errors too)? It would be interesting if someone could repeat this test using a drive that doesn't report C2 errors.

Eheh, great.....

Tigre, if you've still got the files, find the position of an error, and check the sample value in this position in the good file. If it is not exactly equal to the mean value of the previous and next sample, it just means that it was not interpolated, and that the error just didn't occur (we could in addition check that when errors occur, the drive+software combo performs linear interpolations).
It's not uncommon in CDS200 CD to have many unstable errors in addition of the original ones, that happens at places where the error correction codes are destroyed by the CDS200 mastering.

I don't have the files anymore, but I can repeat the test - no big deal. ... soon.

ASPI talk split here. Please continue related discussion there.

is the last version of clonecd able to copy these protected audio cd?

Yes and No....
Yes Clone CD can copy cds200 audio cds
No because it doesn't interpolate fake errors in any way resulting in clicks & skips.

so the only programs able to copy

are
easy cd extractor & EAC ??

Plextools can do it too, when you have a Plextor drive.

The OP mentioned that he got clicks with Plextools, but that's probably because he used it with a LiteOn drive.

IMO, in this regard, his statement that Easy CD DA Extractor gave better results than Plextools is a bit misleading.

but eac can do it?

depends on the drive.

hmm... is it at all possible to get a CDS200 rip without interpolating or getting clicks? like bit-identical to what was meant to be on the disc? or is this a grey area?

actually, i'd like to test this if i can get hold of 2 versions of the same disc (protected and non-protected) and bit-compare the rips.

i use EAC and a ricoh MP7163A and get good results, but i'm not sure if they're bit identical.. all i know is there's no clicks and EAC reports no read errors (it says quality 99.8%, but apparently that means it was still able to recover the data). is this misleading?

well, i just copied Febrero 14 from Alberto Plaza (CDS200) with dbpoweramp and a Teac CDR56S (SCSI)

(edit: i have started too look like a dbpa zealot )

Yes, reading the cd using a stereo cd player who has an optical out, optical in in your soundcard and record the whole album in real time.
Get the CUE sheet of the original one with a program like EAC, cut everything you don't need of, make all the tracks splits with CDwave and obtain a real good copy without any clicks &/or skips.

IIRC, the reason why a normal CD player plays those CDs without clicks it's because it interpolates. So, this would not produce what MugFunky wanted.
Although, also IIRC, evry drive interpolates minor errors in EVERY CD, now and then (specially in scratched ones).

No, because the original data is erased before the CD is made. There are only "holes" left instead. You can't have them back, you can only guess what they could have been, by interpolation.



Because they interpolate better, there are less clicks in CD Players, but there will also be digital differences from a player to another, if they don't use the same error correction strategy before interpolation. The one I tested had a poor error correction ability, compared to computer drives. The CD ROM drive Teac e540 was superior in all ways as far as error correction was concerned. It doesn't inteprolates as well, but it has less errors left to interpolate after the C2 correction stage.

Just ripped Norah Jones new album (CDS200) using Pioneer A05 DVD burner and Lite-On 486S CD Rom drive using latest EAC Secure Mode and iTune (with Error Correction and rip to wave file). The CD is in perfect condition (except for CDS200) so I won't worry much about the physical damage that can cause read errors.

In EAC the ripping speed is very slow on both brive the error bar light up all the time (I know it's normal for CDS200). When the rip is done, EAC report a lot of suspecious range about every 6 seconds (Is this CDS200 characteristic?) And there is a lot of audible clicks when I listen to those part.

In iTunes the ripping speed is faster (about 3x on Pioneer A05).

The result is very impressive, in iTunes A05 Rip, I can't hear any audible click. I confirm this by choosing 3 of very stong clicks on EAC rip and compare it with iTune rip.

Are there any drives that will rip it aside from Plextors and Lite-ons? I only have an old Lite-on and I don't want to buy a NEW CD/DVD drive just to rip one stupid cd.

so if the error bar in EAC doesn't go up all the way (ie. it finds >8 of 16 are good reads, rather than finding no good result after 48) this just means the hardware is interpolating in a consistent manner?

i've never had a "suspicious range" or whatever when ripping CDS200 discs, though i have only tried 2 (i don't buy the things unless i REALLY like the band). haven't heard any clicks either, but then that's probably masking from the excessively peak limited albums.

Reading this reminds me of my 1st CDS experience. The extraction results (i.e. on the positions with CU errors/interpolation) changed depending on extraction speed. This meas that this itunes vs. EAC result as well as my Easy-CDDA vs. EAC results (-> previous posts) could be simply caused by different extraction speeds used by different programs, so there might be no software interpolation at all with any of these programs.

Anyway, no matter what caused the results, it seems like trying different extraction software is a good idea if there are audible clicks.

what kind of feature should my drive has to make a perfect CDS200 copy?

but is possible that easy cd extractor is the only one (SURE) soft able to copy these audio protected cds?

and the others?

Interesting. I have been using a combination of Plextor PX-W2410A and either PlexTools or EAC secure mode for ripping all my CD's. I had no problem even with some discs that were supposed to be copy protected, until I tried to rip Steve Vai's Fire Garden.

Everything was OK until I got to the last track, #18. About 15 seconds from the end of the track, PlexTools just dropped down to a very slow speed while read errors continued to climb. After about 15 minutes, I decided to cancel because no progress was being made, only read errors. Of course, the first thing I checked for was a scratched or damaged disc, but it is still like new. No real scratches. So, on to EAC. Same problem at the same place in the last track. I then tried paranoia mode, then burst. Still stopped at the same place while the read errors mounted up.

I also had CDex 1.51 installed, so I gave that a try in paranoia mode. Same thing.

Then I remembered that Cool Edit Pro 2.0 had some CD-ripping features, but I had never used them. I decided to give it a try before resorting to recording the analog output of my portable CD player. It ripped the last track flawlessly, never once slowing down or otherwise showing signs of a problem. I checked the track in Cool Edit looking for clicks/pops, which would be easy to spot because this point in the song is very quiet. There were none, so I then checked by listening to the entire track with headphones. Perfect.

I still rip with PlexTools, but if I ever run across a problem CD, I know what I will try first. I have no idea what kind of ripping engine is used in Cool Edit Pro, but it seems to be a damn good one. Anyone else have similar experiences, or know anything about the engine used in CEP? I never did analyse the CD to see what copy protection was on it, although someday if I'm curious I might.

Great cbope

which version of cool edit pro have you?

i read in some forum that cdmate is able to make a perfect copy of these audio cd

Yes, in CDS200, errors occur every 6 seconds.
No, the fact that EAC's error correction doesn't go to the end is also a CDS200 characteristic : the errors are always the same, so EAC "believes" that it corrected them (identical rips are assumed to be error free).

The settings in one program should make more differences that different programs. CDS200 errors are mastered, uncorrectable, so using the error correction abilities of some programs (especially EAC) won't help the extraction.
Burst mode and disabling allow speed reduction should be tried with EAC. The optimal speed depends on the drive and the CD, I think.

I just noticed that when I'm ripping scrached disk with my Liteon 24102B drive using EAC secure mode, I get clicks often if I don't use [Allow speed reduction during extraction] in EAC Drive options. Ripping gets slower, but i don't care about that anymore.