Thread split from here
-------------------------------------------------------------
Just a word of caution on the command line Ganymed provided.
ID3V2 tags are NOT recommended. They cause a lot of problems. This link gives you some good reasons why.
Tag ID3v2... Why not?
Full Version: Another "Is ID3 V2.x evil?" discussion
QUOTE (ddrawley @ Feb 18 2004, 11:02 AM)
Just a word of caution on the command line Ganymed provided.
ID3V2 tags are NOT recommended. They cause a lot of problems. This link gives you some good reasons why.
Tag ID3v2... Why not?
ID3V2 tags are NOT recommended. They cause a lot of problems. This link gives you some good reasons why.
Tag ID3v2... Why not?
Bullshit.
I use ID3v2 tags, and I don't have any problems with my MP3's on my MpTrip discman, my RioVolt SP-250 discman, or my Samsung DVD player.
They might cause problems when played in subpar software or on a subpar player, but then again you can't be sure that such garbage can properly play even the strictest Lame MP3's.
QUOTE (ddrawley @ Feb 18 2004, 08:02 AM)
Just a word of caution on the command line Ganymed provided.
ID3V2 tags are NOT recommended. They cause a lot of problems. This link gives you some good reasons why.
Tag ID3v2... Why not?
ID3V2 tags are NOT recommended. They cause a lot of problems. This link gives you some good reasons why.
Tag ID3v2... Why not?
I also call bullshit. ID3v2.3 is a defacto standard, and practically every MP3 player out there works with them without a hitch.
I ask again... why on EARTH would you choose MP3 over MPC (you know, for compatibility on portable players) and then tag using something like APE2 so that nothing can bloody read them?
id3v2 IS crap
f***s up the data stream
and a poor standard at best
APE2 or nothing, imho (mostly nothing for me...)
later
f***s up the data stream
and a poor standard at best
APE2 or nothing, imho (mostly nothing for me...)
later
What about TOS #6, anyone?
Even if there are problems with ID3v2 damaging VBR encoded MP3s, the encoder knows how big the tag is, when you add the ID3v2 tag during encoding and the encoder will account for the tags size when writing the VBR-header. If you add padding, there will be (at the best case) no need for resizing the ID3v2 tag.
I know that ID3v2 tags are evil - but I think they suck at some other points ...
edit: clarification
Even if there are problems with ID3v2 damaging VBR encoded MP3s, the encoder knows how big the tag is, when you add the ID3v2 tag during encoding and the encoder will account for the tags size when writing the VBR-header. If you add padding, there will be (at the best case) no need for resizing the ID3v2 tag.
I know that ID3v2 tags are evil - but I think they suck at some other points ...
edit: clarification
Never had any problems with ID3V2...
@xmixahlx: could you describe HOW id3v2 f**cks up the data stream????
@xmixahlx: could you describe HOW id3v2 f**cks up the data stream????
QUOTE (SikkeK @ Feb 19 2004, 03:47 PM)
Never had any problems with ID3V2...
@xmixahlx: could you describe HOW id3v2 f**cks up the data stream????
@xmixahlx: could you describe HOW id3v2 f**cks up the data stream????
Id3 can be considered bad data to an mp3 decoder.
It is not part of the mp3 specs.
Most other formats have defined a tagging standard to insure correct handling of the tags.
If you wanted a truly industry standard tagging system, you'd throw your MP3s in an MP4 container anyhow. It'll take a little while for the MP4 containers to be pervasive, but once they are...
Sorry to sound like a complete dunce but how do you / when do you benefit from having ID3 tags on your MP3's.
How would I miss them if I didn't have them on my MP3's
How would I miss them if I didn't have them on my MP3's
[QUOTE=Jan S.,Feb 19 2004, 09:56 AM]@xmixahlx: could you describe HOW id3v2 f**cks up the data stream???? [/QUOTE]
Id3 can be considered bad data to an mp3 decoder.
It is not part of the mp3 specs.[/QUOTE]
MP3 has no way to store metadata at all, I thought?
If that is the correct then it would seem APEv2 tags and any other tag would be the same as ID3v2.(2 or)3.
But yes, I do have a fairly good understanding why ID3v2.2-3 (and even 2.4) are not desirable and that APEv2 uses a footer instead.
I too prefer a file format with metadata support internally.
I care little for the ID3 standard also, so, please don't misunderstand me, my only goal is to maintain objectiveness.
Bye, tec
Id3 can be considered bad data to an mp3 decoder.
It is not part of the mp3 specs.[/QUOTE]
MP3 has no way to store metadata at all, I thought?
If that is the correct then it would seem APEv2 tags and any other tag would be the same as ID3v2.(2 or)3.
But yes, I do have a fairly good understanding why ID3v2.2-3 (and even 2.4) are not desirable and that APEv2 uses a footer instead.
I too prefer a file format with metadata support internally.
I care little for the ID3 standard also, so, please don't misunderstand me, my only goal is to maintain objectiveness.
Bye, tec
QUOTE (Canar @ Feb 19 2004, 08:19 AM)
If you wanted a truly industry standard tagging system, you'd throw your MP3s in an MP4 container anyhow. It'll take a little while for the MP4 containers to be pervasive, but once they are...
People prefer to shoehorn every possible codec into .avi than use something sensible like .mp4 for some god-awful reason.
QUOTE (loophole @ Feb 19 2004, 05:55 PM)
People prefer to shoehorn every possible codec into .avi than use something sensible like .mp4 for some god-awful reason.
So true.
QUOTE (Tec9SD @ Feb 20 2004, 01:01 AM)
QUOTE (Jan S. @ Feb 19 2004, 09:56 AM)
QUOTE
@xmixahlx: could you describe HOW id3v2 f**cks up the data stream????
Id3 can be considered bad data to an mp3 decoder.
It is not part of the mp3 specs.
MP3 has no way to store metadata at all, I thought?
If that is the correct then it would seem APEv2 tags and any other tag would be the same as ID3v2.(2 or)3.
Yes. APE-tags is just as much a hack as id3 in mp3 files. The only reason to use APE is that it is a better hack
Edit: made a sentence that makes sense. weee.
I use only Id3v2 it is a standard and it can hold information other tagging systems cannot. I also have absolutelly no problems with it in Xbox, car player, DVD, and all software players I use.
Everything else I hear about it is a bit...paranoid IMHO
Everything else I hear about it is a bit...paranoid IMHO
I remember reading that ID3v2 tags over write VBR headers & that they make gapless play more difficult.
If I was using mp3 I would use ID3v1 for compatibility & also write an APEv2 tag for long names, etc..
If I was using mp3 I would use ID3v1 for compatibility & also write an APEv2 tag for long names, etc..
QUOTE (westgroveg @ Feb 20 2004, 10:09 AM)
I remember reading that ID3v2 tags over write VBR headers & that they make gapless play more difficult.
Some buggy ID3v2 implementations do that, you are generally save, if you add the ID3v2 tags during encoding using lame itself (--add-id3v2 --pad-id3v2).
I personally prefer APEv2/ID3v1 using wapet and foobar2000.
QUOTE (dev0 @ Feb 20 2004, 01:13 AM)
Some buggy ID3v2 implementations do that
I am sick and tired of reading these comments.
ok. Someone please make a list of all the crap software out there that writes problematic tags, all kind of tags not just ID3v2
( I know a couple of cases about mp4 anf flac tagging gone to hell , I do not want to say which software did that it would be un ethical of me )
So please make a list so people will not use bad software.
Well, I use ID3v2
Personally, ID3v1 is useless and braindead. ID3v2 has the facility to hold the data I want to store, and it works perfectly in all my scenarios.
If your tag editor doesn't support ID3v2 properly, then use a different tag editor
And iTunes supports it very well
Personally, ID3v1 is useless and braindead. ID3v2 has the facility to hold the data I want to store, and it works perfectly in all my scenarios.
If your tag editor doesn't support ID3v2 properly, then use a different tag editor
And iTunes supports it very well
From zZzZzZz,
I know many people (including Dibrom, r3mix if this matters to you) who have agreed that ID3v2 is a poor standard & others who have just had many issues with it but I'm not going to dig up every ID3v2 problem thread I can find, also lot's where in the r3mix forum which is gone.
If you want to discuss ID3v2 is good/bad I suggest you do it on this thread for people to get a clear conclusion.
QUOTE
Id3v2 is a very nice example of a poorly-designed standard, even their official libraries still have issues (ask kode54 if you want more details on that), the sooner everyone moves to something else (such as APEv2), the better.
It's not about writing the tag at the beginning of file (Vorbis comments are stored at the beginning of file too), it's about serious issues with the standard itself, such as supporting multiple different character sets instead of forcing unicode (which allows any character to be stored correctly), so code reading the tag needs separately handle all of character encodings allowed by the "standard" (even official id3v2 libraries have major issues with that); or using field codes instead of full field name strings (no backwards compatibility, adding new fields requires changes in the "standard").
It's not about writing the tag at the beginning of file (Vorbis comments are stored at the beginning of file too), it's about serious issues with the standard itself, such as supporting multiple different character sets instead of forcing unicode (which allows any character to be stored correctly), so code reading the tag needs separately handle all of character encodings allowed by the "standard" (even official id3v2 libraries have major issues with that); or using field codes instead of full field name strings (no backwards compatibility, adding new fields requires changes in the "standard").
I know many people (including Dibrom, r3mix if this matters to you) who have agreed that ID3v2 is a poor standard & others who have just had many issues with it but I'm not going to dig up every ID3v2 problem thread I can find, also lot's where in the r3mix forum which is gone.
If you want to discuss ID3v2 is good/bad I suggest you do it on this thread for people to get a clear conclusion.
All of this "ID3 is BAD!!! I hear it overwrites VBR headers and kills babies!" is just bullshit. Folks, the tags go at the start of the MP3 file, yes. They don't overwrite anything. Grab a hex editor and take a look.
So theoretically yes, an MP3 player which doesn't read ID3v2 could play back the ID3 information as noise or error out. In practice because they are so damn pervasive, I have NEVER seen a program do that. Have you? Please list them!
Also there is a practical reason for putting them at the beginning of the file: Streaming. This way the media information goes out first.
Please back up your statements with actual facts people, not just "Dibrom says they are bad". It's in the TOS after all.
So theoretically yes, an MP3 player which doesn't read ID3v2 could play back the ID3 information as noise or error out. In practice because they are so damn pervasive, I have NEVER seen a program do that. Have you? Please list them!
Also there is a practical reason for putting them at the beginning of the file: Streaming. This way the media information goes out first.
Please back up your statements with actual facts people, not just "Dibrom says they are bad". It's in the TOS after all.
QUOTE (dev0 @ Feb 20 2004, 01:13 AM)
QUOTE (westgroveg @ Feb 20 2004, 10:09 AM)
I remember reading that ID3v2 tags over write VBR headers & that they make gapless play more difficult.
Some buggy ID3v2 implementations do that, you are generally save, if you add the ID3v2 tags during encoding using lame itself (--add-id3v2 --pad-id3v2).
I personally prefer APEv2/ID3v1 using wapet and foobar2000.
dev, a question, although it's more directed at anyone with EAC/lame knowledge:
would you say that ticking the option in EAC to write id3v2 tags with a padding of 4kb (while passing a simple --APE %s %d paramter to LAME) is equivalent to using the --pad-id3v2 parameter (or even using Lame to add the ID3 tag, which I'm haven't searched for info on yet)?
thanks much
QUOTE (SikkeK @ Feb 19 2004, 06:47 AM)
Never had any problems with ID3V2...
@xmixahlx: could you describe HOW id3v2 f**cks up the data stream????
@xmixahlx: could you describe HOW id3v2 f**cks up the data stream????
...jan beats me to the punch
Add another tally to those for id3v2. I know it may not be the best tagging solution, but you can't beat it for use with mp3 files.
I tried converting all my id3v1/id3v2 tagged files to id3v1/apev2. I gave up on it when I realized that only one of my music programs understood the apev2 tags. Thus, tag info was screwed up on my iPod (Ephpod doesn't notice the apev2) and I could only listen to my mp3's with proper tag info fb2k. Sorry, but I've never run into problems writing/removing/rewriting ID3v2 tags, and thus I'm using id3v1/id3v2 now (not with UTF though as that caused all sorts of problems). In fact, the only reason I use id3v1 is for compatibility with my car's mp3/cd player, which can't read id3v2 but has no problems ignoring it
I tried converting all my id3v1/id3v2 tagged files to id3v1/apev2. I gave up on it when I realized that only one of my music programs understood the apev2 tags. Thus, tag info was screwed up on my iPod (Ephpod doesn't notice the apev2) and I could only listen to my mp3's with proper tag info fb2k. Sorry, but I've never run into problems writing/removing/rewriting ID3v2 tags, and thus I'm using id3v1/id3v2 now (not with UTF though as that caused all sorts of problems). In fact, the only reason I use id3v1 is for compatibility with my car's mp3/cd player, which can't read id3v2 but has no problems ignoring it
I absolutely hate trying to remove id3v2 tags from files, they're such a pain, what sort of foolish developer thought it would be a good idea to make it necessary to re-write the entire stream to get rid of them?
QUOTE (Flak @ Feb 20 2004, 01:54 PM)
I absolutely hate trying to remove id3v2 tags from files, they're such a pain, what sort of foolish developer thought it would be a good idea to make it necessary to re-write the entire stream to get rid of them?
Did you try to remove Vorbis comments or mp4 atoms?
Please check all options out there first and then call someone a fool.
Case in point: my daughter's micro system, a Phillips MC-M250 (cheap, I know, but enough for a 10 year-old 
), chokes on ID3v2-tagged VBR (--aps) files (a horrible and loud crackle at the beginning of each MP3). I haven't tried with CBR files and ID3v2, though, but that crackle was enough to convince me to stick to ID3v1 for anything that will not be used on a PC.
Cheers, Joey.
), chokes on ID3v2-tagged VBR (--aps) files (a horrible and loud crackle at the beginning of each MP3). I haven't tried with CBR files and ID3v2, though, but that crackle was enough to convince me to stick to ID3v1 for anything that will not be used on a PC.Cheers, Joey.
QUOTE
Please back up your statements with actual facts people, not just "Dibrom says they are bad". It's in the TOS after all.
I think Peter's quote pretty much summed things up. On the users side it's about compatibility with hardware, the biggest strong point of mp3 ; ) .
In the past there has been many reports of ID3v2 tags overwriting Xing VBR headers, believe it or not I don't care.
Personally, I could care less what tag format is used for my mp3 files. I currently use ID3v2 because it does what I need, and it simply works. My mp3 players all support it, I've never had any problems with it, it supports Japanese and Korean just fine, I couldn't ask for anything better.
If APEv2 were supported on any of my mp3 players, I'd happily use that. But until then, I'll keep using ID3v2.
If APEv2 were supported on any of my mp3 players, I'd happily use that. But until then, I'll keep using ID3v2.
QUOTE (westgroveg @ Feb 21 2004, 10:00 AM)
In the past there has been many reports of ID3v2 tags overwriting Xing VBR headers, believe it or not I don't care.
Must have been broken id3v2 writer in some particular app. Not a fault of id3v2 standard itself. Or some dodgy MP3 stream parser wouldn't "notice" the xing header if there was id3v2 tag in front of it.
QUOTE (zZzZzZz @ Feb 21 2004, 09:47 PM)
QUOTE (westgroveg @ Feb 21 2004, 10:00 AM)
In the past there has been many reports of ID3v2 tags overwriting Xing VBR headers, believe it or not I don't care.
Must have been broken id3v2 writer in some particular app. Not a fault of id3v2 standard itself. Or some dodgy MP3 stream parser wouldn't "notice" the xing header if there was id3v2 tag in front of it.
After a bit of googling it seems lame may have been a cause of this read here & here.
Here is some older mp3 decoder tests, some where not able to decode files with ID3v2 tags, under developed mp3 hardware devices may also act in this way. There are even very few software decoders that support ID3v2.4.
QUOTE (westgroveg @ Feb 21 2004, 02:41 AM)
Here is some older mp3 decoder tests, some where not able to decode files with ID3v2 tags, under developed mp3 hardware devices may also act in this way. There are even very few software decoders that support ID3v2.4.
Don't even know software that creates v2.4 tags. Does Foobar use it?
JD
A lot of programs out there can create 2.4 tags, generally it is in the options of the program.
I think that mp3 tag clinic has to be the one that follows ID3xx to the letter!
I think that mp3 tag clinic has to be the one that follows ID3xx to the letter!
QUOTE (Flak @ Feb 21 2004, 08:54 AM)
I absolutely hate trying to remove id3v2 tags from files, they're such a pain, what sort of foolish developer thought it would be a good idea to make it necessary to re-write the entire stream to get rid of them?
The fool who decided it might be necessary for ID3v2 tags to work on MP3 streams too...
ie, you listen to an id3v2 mp3 stream you see the song name etc as it starts, rather than seeing it AFTER you've listened to the stream.
Makes perfect sense to me
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.