Brushing the politics aside for a moment, I thought I'd get back to the actual business of discussing the plugin. Fantastic piece of software, it has restored my faith in 3rd party ipod loaders after the decline of Ephpod. I think I may have found a mini bug-ette anyhow.

It is said that Itunes is not required to use foo_pod, but I beg to differ slightly.
I am running itunes 4.8 and 60 Photo ipod with firmware 1.1 (23rd May release).
If I either load mp3s directly after a firmware reflash, or choose the rebuild database option, my ipod goes into a perpetual reboot cycle, showing the apple for a few seconds, clicking and showing it again.

The only way to get out of this, is by loading one mp3 in itunes before doing my main sync in foo_pod and by staying clear of the database rebuild ! I'm using 0.9.9j.

Anybody else seen this ?

regards

Niels

PS How / where do I post my itunesdb if anyone wants to see it
PPS Keep up the good work Aero. I think that bribery on the 0.9 could always be an option. What were the paypal details again .....

clunesy: I suggest using iTunes to drop one mp3 file into the iPod Photo and send the resulting iTunesDB file to Aero. Clearly, the problem is in creation of a new iTunesDB file that the photo doesn't like, so figuring out what the deal is requires a known good file to see where the differences are between it and what foo_pod will generate for a new iTunesDB file.

The ban has very little with my decision not to port foo_pod to Foobar 0.9. I believe I alluded to the possibility of not porting foo_pod to 0.9 even before the ban.

Anyway, in order of priority, the reasons include:

1. Not having much time to work on foo_pod, in general.
2. No good reason (for me) to upgrade to Foobar 0.9.
3. The lack of a publically available SDK for 0.9.
4. Forum difficulties (i.e. the ban).


When Foobar 0.9 and SDK are released, if I find a good reason to upgrade and the 0.8->0.9 SDK changes are minimial, I might do the porting. But like I said, I really don't see any good reason to upgrade to Foobar 0.9 at this point, and several good reasons not to.

I have the same iPod and firmware, and I haven't seen any problems like that. In fact, I don't think I have ever used iTunes to load music onto my iPod (other than maybe to test database format changes and the ArtworkDB and Photo Databases).

Like Otto said, please send me your iTunes created iTunesDB along with a foo_pod generated one that seems to cause the reboot problem. If you can make them as small as possible (1 song, if that shows the problem), it would be helpful.

Hi Aero,
I have been having issue with recent versions of foo_pod. Bsaically when my ipod is connected, in foo_pod's menu "Eject ipod" is greyed out (and "Mount ipod" isn't). Clicking Mount ipod doesn't do anything helpful either.

Thanks.

Nothing has changed with the mount/eject code in a while. I have seen this happen occassionally in the past, and it seems to be a problem with iPodService. Try restarting iPodService and see if that helps.

I had that same problem a few months back, and re-installing iPodService was what corrected it for me.

Well, it works ok with foo_pod 0.8. I have had this problem for a while (and it always happens, it doesn't only happen occasionally).

The other problem I have had is that after a 'Sync All Playlists' you seem to keep a handle open to the "Ipod_Control/iTunes/Play Counts" file, which also renders the "Safely remove hardware" feature of Windows useless for ejecting the ipod until I close foobar2000.

The mount/eject code hasn't been touched since well before v0.8, so there must be something else going wrong. And really the only thing that can go wrong is iPodService. Make sure you have the latest version installed.


This is a bug, but it can only occur if the Play Counts file is unreadable by foo_pod. Try deleting it and see if the problem persists.

Edit: Actually, before you delete it, send me the Play Counts file so I can figure out why foo_pod can't ready it.

I have iPodService version 11 according to foo_pod. Probably not the latest, no; I will try downloading a newer version of ipod updater.

And yes, foo_pod 0.8 is working ok. I would guess something to do with ipodservice has changed on your side (broke compatibility with old version ?) because the ipodservice tab in prefs is not filled in with 0.9.9j but it is with 0.8.

[edit]
Alas, this is probably the change that broke it for my old ipodservice
Mystery solved...

I would suggest if you don't want to support old versions of ipodservice you should handle it more elegantly..

It is zero bytes big.

I've just tried using this component for the first time. I was rather unimpressed.

On top of locking the main window whenever it accesses my iPod, it takes an eternity to do so, often giving no dialog box informing me anything is happening, and so on.

It refused to put any music onto my iPod (sometimes even claiming to have successfully done so), through transcoding or copying, until I switched to Disk mode. Even then, when transcoding large amounts, it locked my foobar and prevented me from even pausing the currently-playing track. So, I had a single second or two interval of a track stuck repeating for quite some time.

I think I've finally got it working decently now, but it still likes to lock foobar and prevent me from using it at all while it does things, which is enormously frustrating. I'm probably going to ditch it soon and go back to a transcode -> iTunes format after the current transcode finishes. At least then I can use foobar2000 while it's transcoding.

Questions on the pre-amp stuff.

From what I can tell by exporting the iTunesDB, the pre-amp stuff that foo_pod does increases the volume variable in the DB. This results in the song playing louder when the iPod volume is turned to 50% for example, than a song which has not had the pre-amp applied. The problem with this, however, is that the iPod volume maxes out depending on how much preamp was applied.

For example, if I preamp a song (with soundcheck data) to 100%, any volume adjustments on the iPod past half-way make no difference, I'm assuming that the song volume variable plus iPod volume has past some threshold. Without sound check data this doesn't happen. Basically, there seems to be some max volume that I'm hitting when using soundcheck, and the greater the pre-amp by foo_pod, the quicker I hit that max on the iPod volume adjustment. (e.g. a preamp of 100%, I get no increase in volume past half-way, a pre-amp of 50% I get no increase in volume past 75% of the volume slider).

What I like to see done, if possible, is to rather than adjust the volume variable of the song, is to actually decrease the db reduction of the soundcheck.

Basically, soundchecked songs don't get loud enough for me, and when using the existing preamp, I'm hitting some volume limit on the iPod (not this isn't a Euro iPod). Again, when I'm not using SoundCheck this limit is not an issue (it get's way loud).

Aero, does this make sense? Is it doable?

Thanks!

Wow - that's a great story. Thanks for sharing! Hope you have better luck with something else.

I'm sure the iPod has some sort of internal limiter, to prevent the amplifer from being overdriven.


You are adjusting the pre-amp setting for both SoundCheck and non-SoundCheck songs, right? Semi-recent versions of foo_pod have separate settings for songs with and without SoundCheck, although I believe some iPod firmware versions ignore the volume/pre-amp setting when SoundCheck information is present (which is likely your problem).

I suppose I could add some sort of SoundCheck bias setting, but you could also manually adjust the ReplayGain values on your songs and make them a little higher - say take a -6dB RG value and make it -3dB or 0dB. What I will probably do is remove the slider for RG pre-amp (since it doesn't always work, depending on the firmware version) and replace it with a Quieter/No change/Louder switch that would do what you are looking for. I'll consider putting that in the next version.

One question though, why does foo_pod (and many other plugins) tend to lag or freeze the main window while they run? Is this a foobar threading limitation?

foo_pod had been like that since the beginning, then I experimented with allowing Foobar access during foo_pod operations. Unfortunately, there were a bunch of unexplained crashes around this time as well, so I reverted back to the much-loved way.

I'm not really sure if the problem is something I'm (not) doing, or if it is a Foobar problem. At the risk of being banned again , Foobar has some limitations with respect to multi-threaded components. So I think the problem could be something internal to Foobar, but it is hard enough to track down that I have just gone for the easy solution and locking down Foobar during foo_pod operations.

Maybe you missed the point. In its current form, I'm personally pushing to have foo_pod added to the Problematic list. Components should never lock foobar2000 like foo_pod does, preventing cancellation, playback, and interaction with the main window for an extended period of time.

If you're having issues with writing proper multithreaded code, drop by #foobar2000 on Freenode. I'm sure they'll help out if asked nicely.

Problematic list? Get real, the component works fine and has worked fine for many...

Whilst I do find it annoying that foobar's not accessible whilst foo_pod's working, adding it to the problematic list is over-the-top and will likely only discourage Aero further from working on this project. The problematic list is for plugins that have really big problems (the ever present example of incomplete unicode support), or crashes a lot. Not having foo_pod multi-threaded, whilst annoying, is not a serious problem and/or flaw, and certainly doesn't cause damage to foobar's configuration or any of your music files. It's just the way it is.

You know Canar, maybe you missed the point! Had you not been so smug in your original post, you may have received a better response than the one that was given. So, don't act like a child, go run and tell mommy because you got your feelings hurt. Aero has been very responsive at upgrading foo_pod when we post here with problems. Aero deserves to be treated with respect, as do all the members here in this forum. Try it Canar, you just might like it!

Regards,
Dirk

Yeah agree totally, Aero, you do a great job with foo_pod, and its much appreciated by many many users of foobar. It has always worked as close to flawlessly as is humanly possible for me, and the VERY minor irritance of locking up whilst sending to an ipod is hardly worth mentioning. Start some music you like to listen to on before you start a transfer, send your files (which won't take all that long anyway), whats the prob?

I must say though, I am a little disappointed with your decision to not update to .9, but at this stage 0.8.3 does everything (and more due to all the unported extensions) that i'll ever need for quite some time to come.

There are some APIs that may only be called from the main thread, and they are clearly marked as such. I don't know why talking about this in a factual manner would result in any kind of punishment.

Bugs and crashes are reasons to put components on the list of known problematic components, not unliked but completely legal behaviour. We will not label a component as problematic on such grounds.

So locking foobar2000 for an hour and a half while the same 2 second loop of music played, preventing me from cancelling the operation or even stopping playback so I could do something else with my soundcard while it operated is considered "legal behaviour"? If the plugin had actually done something useful after that time, I might even be able to agree. However, it returned a console literally full of error messages that I was unable to see and stop so I could fix the problem.

However, I suppose that'd be at best merely my opinion. Hmm.

Edit: For the record, I was using foo_pod to put MPCs on my iPod, so it was transcoding. I can recreate the lockup easily by doing precisely that.

I see your point here, but personally disagree. Foosion (and the other devs I mentioned this to) seem to agree more with you than me, so I'll let my last post stand and see how this plays out.

The problem described by Canar seems to indicate that foo_pod lock the metadb for a longer period. While this is not strictly illegal, it is not very cooperative either and should best be avoided. My advise would be to check the code for this and either lock the metadb once to retrieve all necessary information at the beginning or to lock it for each file separatly. Feel free to ask questions regarding the SDK in the dev forum or on IRC.

I've been following this thread since it's inception, and I can say that I do not recall anybody having an hour and a half lockup with foo_pod. I've had quite a few lockups over the years with foobar2000, along with lots of other programs, as well. Sometimes you just have bite the bullet and press Alt-Ctrl-Delete. That's what it's there for, I think. ;-) Again, had you just stated the problem straight on, you may have been given an explanation as to what might be going on in your situation. I don't want to speak for Aero, but I think your problem would have been addressed had you used just a little bit of tact when you originally posted your problem. You seem to lose site of that fact. Aero made this plugin for free and out of the goodness of his heart. You shouldn't disrespect the one person that you are going to for help. Think about it?

Regards,
Dirk

You mean like the file renamer does? Better add some of ZzZzZz's componets then . . .

File renamer displays a modal dialog with a progress meter and a cancel button. On top of that, it's never disrupted my music playback.

Yes, just as I have never experienced your problem! I guess each computer system is different, and programs encounter different kinds of problems on different kinds of systems.

Yeah, something like that is going on, but songs without SoundCheck data get louder than I can get them with the preamp@100%+SoundCheck, I'm presuming this limiter has something to do with the numeric value in the volume variable.



I'm actually only using the SoundCheck one, since all my songs I'm putting on the iPod have ReplayGain associated with them.



Not sure about that, I'm using the latest version of firmware 3/23/05 for iPod photo (v1.1), and I do see that volume/pre-amp does have an effect on the songs with SoundCheck. For example, if I have the preamp at 100%, with an iPod slider volume at 50%, the song is louder than if the preamp was at 50%.



Yeah I could do this, but an option in foo_pod would be nicer/cleaner. I'm willing to do it if you wouldn't mind sharing the source.



What I think would be best would be to actually keep the slider as a percentage slider, and take the Replaygain value and decrease the db reduction that is done. For example, if I have a Reaplygain value of -6dB, and a "boost" setting of 50%, then the resulting SoundCheck would be calculated based on a ReplayGain of -3dB. I know this is probably logorithm based, so the calculation would be slightly different, but you get the idea.

Thanks for listening Aero!

Dunno if this matters, but there is a known issue bandied about on the Apple forums with regards to this stuff. The latest version of the firmware on 4G and up units can cause files to become inaccessible after the iPod reboots from a deep sleep mode (where you don't touch the thing for 36 hours or so). Running chkdsk on the iPod fixes the problem, until it goes back into deep sleep.

No word on when they're going to get a fix for this, but it's been around quite a while. The Play Counts file is particularly affected, because it is left open when you pause a song and set the iPod down, I think. Lots of people have the "Cannot read Play Counts" file message using iTunes and the latest firmware and newer iPod's.

Offtopic: I hate that deep-sleep mode, it forgets that I hate the clicker.

Deep Sleep mode isn't supposed to forget anything. It used to work fine, but they broke it in recent firmwares.

Any idea which version number I need to go back to for the bug to be "fixed" on my 4th gen?

Not offhand. I think the latest firmware on those is something.2 and the one that isn't broken is something.1. Dunno if that helps.

I think the latest firmware is 3.0.2. By Otto42's logic then, the working firmware should be 3.0.1. Going back to the previous firmware will probably re-introduce other bugs though.

Offtopic: On a completely different note, I'd like to say a big happy first birthday to foobar2000 0.8.3. It was compiled exactly one year ago from today, June 28th.

Aero, as always, thanks for foo_pod. It is the most valuable of all plugins for me, and combined with the solid and flexible foobar core has changed the way I use and organize music.

You ban from this forum, for an innocuous, accurate comment was hilarious and amateurish.

Thanks for continuing your work on the 0.8 version. I support your decision to not update for 0.9 even though I personally would benefit greatly from the add'l ID3v2 support. If whoever banned you would apologize for a ridiculous overreaction than I'd reconsider. For now, thanks for all your work. The only person involved in fb2k who deserves more praise, in my mind, is the creator himself.

Will be interesting to see how long this post survives. Aero if you provide your email@ to me via pm I will offer feedback that way, should the same dork who banned you ban me.

+Reardon

Aero's "ban" was a result of forum software bug, which changed 3-day removal of posting ability into infinite, which we fixed two weeks later when we noticed the problem. As you can see, no one is banned, or was banned to start with. Apparently Aero & friends have a lot of enjoyment from trolling board staff/regulars about that issue. We have been patient not to even give any further warnings despite of repeated TOS #7 violations, but this nonsense has to stop.
Next time someone brings this up, admin-level actions *will* be taken.

There's a new iPod firmware out for 4G and up units today. They might have fixed it in that release. Worth a shot anyway.

Although the new firmware might break foo_pod compatibility too. Keep your old firmware installer handy, just in case.

I upgraded to the new firmware and am now getting this error when I load files via the contextual menu > send files to iPod:

WARNING (foo_pod) : Unable to parse Play Counts file 'g:\iPod_Control\iTunes\Play Counts' (error 13)


Oh, let me just say, THANK YOU Aero, Otto and everyone else who have contributed to this awesome plug-in!

There are some significant new changes in the databases created by iTunes 4.9 (Otto - how do *3* mhsd's strike you? ), and due to the changes, foo_pod can't currently read databases written by iTunes 4.9. I'll try to get foo_pod updated tonight, but foo_pod users might want to hold off on iTunes 4.9 and the latest firmware until I get foo_pod updated.

Edit: Wow, there is a lot of new, weird stuff in the new database format. There are show notes now, so you can associate some text with a song, and it is accessible by clicking the center button once you get back the time and stars screens. The most interesting new feature is that you can now have subsongs (like found in Cue sheets) in a single song. For example, I found an Apple new music podcast that was broken up into 7 different subsongs - the time progress bar is split up into 7 sections, and you access each subsong by pressing the next/back button. Pretty cool stuff, but it is going to take some work to update iPodDB to not crash on the new format (they added yet another string format and the subsong stuff is implemented as a MHOD (type 17)), let along be able to do anything useful with it.

Ooops...I should have posted a minute earlier. Yeah, so hold off on the updates for now until I figure out what is going on.

Sonofa... Here I am trying to write a nice interface to my parsing libraries, and they go and change the damn thing on me.

Okay. Email me a copy of the new files, would you, Aero? I'd like to get some of this stuff documented if possible. Might just take the opportunity to rewrite the library entirely and make it cleaner and more robust.

well i screwed up and had installed itunes 4.9 and the new ipod installer, I wanted to check out the new podcast features.

So now I cant use foo_pod, how can i go back to the updater fron 03-23. the update option is greyed out. Would a restore from wothing the 03-23 updater help at all. I wouldnt think so.

So basically the podcast that aplle offers are a waste, and now i cant put my music on my pod with foobar.

How long until you think there might be an update to foo pod to work around apples changes?

There are some pretty significant changes in the iTunes 4.9 database format - I assume at this point, every non-iTunes application is either completely broken or not writing out fully compliant databases. foo_pod is pretty close - I might have an update tomorrow.

To go back to a previous firmware version, go to your iPod's iPod_Control\Device directory and open up SysInfo in a text editor (like Notepad). Find these lines:

buildID: 0x04208000 (4.2)
visibleBuildID: 0x01208000 (1.2)

Change them to something like this:

buildID: 0x03208000 (3.2)
visibleBuildID: 0x00208000 (0.2)

Save the file and run the Updater again. Basically, you just need to convince the Updater than you have an earlier firmware version.

There are more details here.

Thanks that worked a treat. Foo Pod is working like a charm again.


Thanks for the help, and thanks for this kickass plugin. you have made my life better since i dont have to use that crap they call iTunes

I am having a weird issue with foobar lately.

when i highlight a song (or a number of songs) and right click, there is a 5-7 second delay before the right click menu pops up.

I think it is relateted here because when i do the right click, iPodservice.exe jumps from usind 0% of CPU resources to close to 25%, then the milisecond it returns back to 0% the right click menu pops up.
Its really weird, it didnt use to do this until I started fecking with stff yesterday.

anyone have any suggestions

EDIT: It only happens when the iPod is not mounted, if the iPod is present then the right click has 0 delay.

iPodService is searching all the available drives to see if any of them are iPod's. Only seems to effect some people (it effects me to).

even goPod doesn't work anymore with firmware 1.2 on iPod photo...
that's a pitty.

Other than the Play Counts file, which was extended in the latest firmware and thus incompatable with previous software, just updating the firmware shouldn't break any 3rd party programs. It is the database changes introduced by iTunes 4.9 that cause the majority of the problems.