it depends on which version of itunes you had when you first got your ipod and which you have now. if you've always had itunes 4.8 or earlier, then you use the earlier database format in foo_pod. for now that's the only one that really works in foo_pod, though it seems that that's going to change soon (thx aero!!!!!!!!! )

any later versions and you use the 4.9 database

Interesting. I am using iTunes 6 (the only version I have run) with the latest iPod firmware and have had no problems using foo_pod. If I am using the 4.9 database format, it seems Aero has done a good job supporting it.

Is there a way to get iTunes to utilize Replaygain values in place of Soundcheck values if I don't use foo_pod to transfer music onto my iPod?

It seems like it's possible, but I might be missing how to do it. The preferences talk about translations between the two, but I can't figure out how to send those vales to the iTunes database. I'm assuming that the intended usage is to have foo_pod communicate those values directly to the ipod during transfer. I would prefer using iTunes for syncing my iPod because I rely heavily on smart playlists.

What I would like to do is send the Replaygain values to iTunes and have iTunes record them as Soundcheck settings.

Is this possible using foo_pod?

I plan on adding this feature to foo_sendtopod (which uses iTunes to do the transfer). However I need to work out how to translate the replay gain value to a value from -100 to 100. I assume this has something to do with logarithmic and linear scales, not something I understand fully. I'm assuming foo_pod already does this, would anyone like to reveal how? Or I could work it out for myself, but i'd rather not .
Also, does soundcheck support track and album gains? I don't think it does, which is annoying, as on my iPod I sometimes listen to full albums, or I listen to shuffle.

Edit: On thinking about it wouldnt the -100 to 100 value be logarithmic, because that is the way we hear? Hmm. On looking at my replay gain values in foobar, they go from about -13 dB to +64 (silence, the hidden tracks on Tool - Undertow). But most are clearly in a 10-10 range. I guess it could work to multiply RG by 10, then set anything outside the range to max or min (this shouldnt affect most tracks as they are within the range)

When I use MP3Gain to do volume leveling I know that I have some albums that need -12dB. I may even have some that need more. Since the values for soundcheck seem to be percentages, then the min would be half as loud and the max would be twice as loud.

Not sure what that means to this situation though. The exact decibels needed to make something twice as loud are relative to how loud it is to start, isn't it?

I think I'm just confusing myself, hopefully someone else will answer.

Can we have more details on this foo_sendtopod? How is this going to differ feature wise from foo_pod?

I just found this at wikiPodLinux


Also, I also read a couple places that iTunes only uses the soundcheck values when it initially imports it. After that it uses the stored value in its database.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=40854

It just controls iTunes to send (and possibly transcode) files to the iPod, then tag them quite basic, but handy if you want to use iTunes but don't want to manually transcode and tag (afaik iTunesEncode doesnt work with foo_pod because iTunes locks the iPod database, so you are limited to the nero AAC encoder which AFAIK is slower, hasn't been proven to be as good, and can cause skipping on some iPods)



Thanks, thats just what I was looking for.



The iTunes API provides a function to set "Volume adjustment" which I assume is soundcheck. It would be easy enough to set when adding files, but perhaps I could also implement a 'scanner' that goes through the files on the iPod, locating them in the foobar2000 database and adding these values, but this would be very slow and rely on tag uniformity between iTunes and foobar.

Bad assumption.

The iPod has two volume level fields. One corresponds to that volume slider in iTunes Get Info screen, and ranges from -100 to +100. The other corresponds to the volume adjustment via SoundCheck. This is a power level adjustment, which is why it uses that odd logarithmic scale (the 1000 * 10 ^ (-x/10) thing). These are not the same and do not behave in the same manner. Also, the SoundCheck one is not accessible through any iTunes API or setting, it's wholly automatically determined by iTunes.

So Otto do you know if the foo_pod replaygain translation adjusts the soundcheck values or the volume adjustment?

If iTunes doesn't read the soundcheck values directly from the file then does that mean that it is stored somewhere in the iTunes Library XML file? Is it possible to manually modify those values so that they reflect replaygain settings?

Foo_pod seems to have some type of importing/exporting feature with XML libraries, but I'm not sure if that only modifies the iTunesDB on the iPod without affecting the iTunes library.

I have a little problem with the plugin. When i right click on a file from a playlist and goes to foo_pod i dont have send to ipod. I only have send to ipod "send file to ipod as audiobook". How do i manage to have "send file to ipod" ???

Ok, I did a bunch of digging through this thread today. I'm starting to get a decent handle on how all this Soundcheck/Replaygain stuff works. I would just like to ask a few followup questions to these previous conversations



When foo_pod writes replaygain values to the iPod, does it simply replace the first value in the itunNORM field leaving the rest of the values alone? If you guys don't know what the other values represent then it would seem that you either 1) leave them alone and modify the value you do know, or 2) modify the first value and delete all the rest.

If this is the case, then (and I'm probably setting myself up for my own private hell) I'm considering manually editing the itunNORM field with a translated Replaygain setting. Yes, I am that obsessive.

So, first of all, is this even feasible? (Ignoring the massive waste of time) And second, is there any way to harvest the RG/SC translation data from foo_pod so that I don't have to compute it all and then translate to hexadecimal (or whatever format that itunNORM field is in)



Now this conversation gives me pause. From what I understand, the itunNORM field is not directly read from the audio file, but it will be read when adding the file to the iTunes library. So, I think I should be able to turn on soundcheck in itunes, causing it to analyze what's there. Then, modify that data to reflect RG values. Then, delete the iTunes library and finally add all the newly formatted audio files back into the library, leaving soundcheck turned on. Will this work? Will this get around iTunes overwriting the RG values?

Just for the record, you should definately check here and here

Yeah, I think I came across that material at some time or another in the last two days. These are the issues I'm trying to address:

1. I need to use iTunes for the smart playlists. I rely on playlists that refer to other playlists as selection criteria.

2. I want the album gain feature of Replaygain.

3. I have been using MP3Gain for a while now, but I always undo the gain changes once the files are transfered to the portable. My wife and I share the same music files and she doesn't like the altered files. If I edit any tags then I have to regain before I can upload it.

I would think that the time invested in getting the Replaygain values into the Soundcheck format now would make my life easier down the road.

I believe it can do either. There's a setting for that, or there used to be. The reason for this setting was that, on older iPods (3G), the soundcheck is not performed on audio using the Line Out on the dock. Newer iPods fixed this flaw.


Just to be clear, the XML file is *not* the library. The library is the ITL file, the XML file is what I like to call a "write-only" file. iTunes never really reads the XML file.


Possible? Sure. You'd have to figure out how the ITL file works.


Neither foo_pod nor the iPod care what is in the iTunNORM comment. The iPod never, ever, reads tags. Period. It's getting it's information from the iTunesDB. foo_pod writes converted ReplayGain values directly to the proper places in the iTunesDB file on the iPod.


Wouldn't do you any good. The iPod does not read the iTunNORM data.

Now, iTunes DOES read this data, but only when the song is initially added to iTunes. After that, it never looks at it again, as far as I know. Although from what the iVolume guy has said on his page, I'm starting to wonder about that.


It really depends on what exactly your goal here is. I'm uncertain as to what it is, precisely, that you're attempting to accomplish.


That would work, despite being a massive pain in the ass.

Another way that *might* work would be to let iTunes scan the file, thus writing the iTunNorm crap to it, then modifying the iTunNorm data directly, and then using the UpdateInfoFromFile() call in the COM library to force iTunes to reread the file tags. This *might* update volume information from that tag, but that is only conjecture. However, it sounds sorta like what the iVolume guy is doing, although he's doing it on the Mac, it seems. Testing would be needed to see if this would work.


I wrote functionality into my original implementation of smart playlists to allow these sort of smart playlists to work without using iTunes. Since foo_pod is using a highly modified version of that original code, foo_pod *could* implement this, in theory. You'd have to talk to Aero. Basically, foo_pod is not precalculating smart playlists, just letting the iPod do it. But the iPod does not implement the "Playlist" rule. If foo_pod precalculated it (which is what that code I wrote does), then it would work.

First, Otto, I want to thank you for such a thorough answer.

I'm not sure if I will proceed with modifying the iTunNorm value now. If you guys aren't able to figure out what those extra values are, then I seriously doubt I will be able to make any headway. However, I may play around a little with the scheme I outlined in my last post where I modify the iTunNorm and then import it into the iTunes library.

In order to do that though I was hoping you could give me a little more information on the formatting of that value. (I have next to no programming experience) I remember reading in one of the earliest posts regarding the soundcheck variable you mentioned that the digits were reversed. Could you elaborate on that?

For example, if I have a track that i want to apply a -12.0dB gain:

1000 * 10^(-.1 * -12.0) = 15848.931...

Round to 15849 then convert to hexadecimal yields 3DE9, correct?

So how would I enter that into iTunNorm? 00003DE9? 0000E93D?

In iTunNorm, it'll be 00003DE9. In the iTunesDB file, it'll be E93D0000.

Excellent. Thanks for all your help. If my experiments yield any notable results I'll post them. If not, you can probably safely assume that my brain short-circuited from obsessing over unimportant minutiae.

Hmm, foo_pod sounds like the best solution to this issue. Will it ever support cuesheets/ CD images? I can't imagine this being particularly hard to implement, as they will always need to be transcoded, and diskwriter (which AFAIK foo_pod's transcoding is based on) supports them. For me this makes it all but completely useless. It would also be nice if it didnt completely block the entire foobar GUI during the transfer.

It would be nice if the source was open and add that support yourself, eh?

Hi there - I'm having a problem with foo pod. I just downloaded foobar and foo pod and they seemed to work as desired. I downloaded them primarily to update my iPod with replaygain values so I could use Soundcheck. However, after scanning my entire playlist for replaygain and updating the iPod database, my iPod no longer shows song information in iTunes - the screen is simply blank. What have I done? Is there anyway to undo this? I like using iTunes for several reasons and I'd like to be able to use both. foobar/foo pod is still showing my iPod contents correctly and will play the files. iTunes has a scroll bar but no track information at all.

Thanks!!

I'm presuming you're using a recent version of iTunes. foo_pod doesn't suport the latest version of the iTunesDB, so once it writes its version of the iPod, iTunes can no longer read it.

That was pretty much what I figured. I had read somewhere (maybe on this forum) that someone was using foo pod with iTunes 6.0 successfully, but I guess I should have taken that with a grain of salt. Is it possible to revert the db in some way using iTunes, or am I now stuck waiting for a foo pod update?

This I don't know the answer to, but I suspect one of five things can happen:

1) Drop iTunes and stick with foobar/foo_pod
2) Go back to a previous version of iTunes (4.8) which can read the foo_pod DB
3) Erase your iPod and start over using iTunes only.
4) Wait for a new version of foo_pod which supports the new databases
5) Write a new foobar plugin for the iPod (from scratch)

Heh heh. OK, I guess I have an uncomfortable decision to make.

I have a little problem with the plugin. When i right click on a file from a playlist and goes to foo_pod i dont have send to ipod. I only have send to ipod "send file to ipod as audiobook". How do i manage to have "send file to ipod" ???

Have you looked at http://www.tinkafoo.com/log/foo_pod.html?

Yeah i did and that's where i found that i should have the entry in my menu...

Are you files MP3? If not, do you have transcoding setup? Is your iPod connected? Did you try to mount/eject it from foo_pod?

All my files are mp3 and yes my ipod is connected. In fact all the others options of foo_pod work perfectly, like editing playlists. Only "send to ipod" does not appear which is quite annoying...

Are you sure that Send to iPod is in your context menu? I found that after reinstalling some plugins that were previously installed some menu items vanished, check Core->Context menu items in settings.

That would be nice too, although starting over is also an option (I remember iTunesDB code is available, written by Otto42 from memory). However foo_sendtopod+iTunes is doing a good job for me at the moment. Not having replaygain is the main annoyance, but it just occurred to me, what if I modified foo_pod to apply replaygain when transcoding, and use mp3gain when not transcoding? The only files left unreplaygained would be AAC, but I only have one album of these which can easily be re-ripped to wavpack like everything else.

Not the ultimate, best, or even a proper solution, and I know I will never be happy with it just because its not the best way, but it would be better than what I'm currently doing.

Edit: It seems something called AACGain exists...

Thank you, that was that. I reset the context menu and know everything is ok!!!!!!!

Here is what I've learned from my experiments with modifying the iTunNORM values to reflect Replaygain settings. (Before doing this I backed up my full iTunes Library XML and ITL files from the iTunes folder, and deleted the main files to force iTunes to create a new set)

First, I ran the Replaygain Scanner in foobar to calculate the album gain values. Then I ran them through Soundcheck in iTunes and closed iTunes. After converting the Replaygain album gain values to hexadecimal I modified the first value in the iTunNORM string to reflect the new gain setting. I then deleted the iTunes Library XML and ITL again and added the folders to iTunes.

As long as only the first value of the iTunNORM string was modified iTunes recognized and used that value for its Soundcheck settings. Also noteworthy was that iTunes apparently DID continue to read the iTunNORM value after initially adding it to the library. I was able to modify the tag and change the volume without having to delete the library and reimport the files. However, if I deleted the iTunNORM frame from the file, iTunes used whatever value I had last entered. If the iTunes library was then deleted, any file missing the iTunNORM frame was re-analyzed by Soundcheck.

Additionally, if I deleted the other values in the iTunNORM string iTunes no longer recognized it. Similar to deleting the frame entirely, it would use whatever the last gain setting was. If I deleted the iTunes library it would re-analyze the file and overwrite the modified iTunNORM string.

None of this information is too earth-shattering, but iTunes' continued interaction with the iTunNORM value is noteworthy. This means that the values can be modified without having to delete the iTunes library XML and ITL files. So play counts and play dates can be retained.

Any chance of iPod 5G support? I've been using foo_pod with my 3G for ages, and I love it. I might be switching to Anapod for my new 5G when it arrives... since I don't see how it would work for video and such to be integrated from foobar... but I gotta say, I LOVE this plugin. Thanks man.

I had a thought. Does foo_pod still work with the latest firmware?

If it does... then I could still use it for my music (just not my videos and images) which would be GREAT!

My bad, I should've read the topic first. Please get a new iPod so we can get new firmware support soon! =D I know that's asking a lot... lol. You should start a paypal fund, I'm sure plenty of people would like to see new iPod support. =) You'd get a new iPod out of the deal and we'd get foobar support, I'm not complaining! =D

Okay, so it's been a while since I've paid attention to this thread.

I have a version of foo_pod installed already. I don't know which one it is, but it's pretty old. At least a few months, if not more.

I also have iTunes on my computer. Pretty sure my iTunes is ancient as well.

The firmware on my 40 GB 4G iPod hasn't been updated in some time either. Probably because of what I am posting below, for some reason.

I can remember checking in here a while back. I remember hearing warnings about using foo_pod with a certain firmware, or with a certain iTunes, or that a version of foo_pod would destroy something. Something to that effect.

Now, I notice that foo_pod 0.9.9m has been released. Are there any MAJOR issues? As in, if I upgrade, will it do something to my iPod?

Basically what I am asking is this: if I upgrade to the latest iTunes, the latest iPod firmware, and the latest foo_pod, will something break?

Just an FYI, but I did read the web page with info about the foo_pod plugin before I posted this, and I cannot see that my concerns are adequately addressed there.

Thanks for an answer!

The only problem you will have is if you upgrade to a recent version of Itunes. The issue is that foo_pod doesn't yet support the latest iTunesDB version. If you write a foo_pod DB out to the iPod, iTunes will no longer be able to read it.

Is foo_pod able to sync ratings, playcounts and last_played info between ipod and the foobar database?

E.g. I'm sending songs to my ipod, play the songs on ipod and change the rating. Now I want to sync this changes with my foobar database. How can I do this?

How do you change the rating from the iPod?

I don't know about earlier iPods, but with a 5G you push the select (center) button twice at the now playing screen. The track length bar then changes to the ratings bar and you can scroll the rating up or down.

Sorry, I did not express myself correctly: I load songs on the iPod without ratings, value it there and would like to receive these ratings in my foobar database.

I don't think this works this way, i.e. foo_pod only syncs to the iPod, not the other way around.

Anyone else know for sure?

Okay. I just checked my iTunes version, and it stands at 4.8.x, so I'm good there.

I can still apply updates to foo_pod and iPod firmware though, correct?

I have a 20G 4G iPod and I have had no problems using the 01-10-2006 Updater with foo_pod v0.9.9m, using the 4.7 DB format. I do not use my iPod with iTunes at all, so I cannot vouch as to whether or not you'll encounter any problems while connected to iTunes.

I used the exact same combination, foo_pod worked in a way, except I got duplicate entries for some artists, tracks that would not play (it just skipped to the next track when I tried to play them). iTunes refused to display the tracks (the scrollbar showed there were tracks there, but every row was blank). XPlay2 still worked though.

Hi, I want to alter the tags on my iPod without altering the original files ID3 tags (I want to add tracknumbers - they are in the filename but not detected by the iPod as they aren't in the tag). Is this possible at all, whether using foo_pod or anything else (well, except iTunes)? I can't find anything that will do this.

Great work on the plugin btw

Why wouldn't you want to add tracknumbers to the original tags?

Why not iTunes?

Edit: BTW, what you are suggesting is probably not possible. Most ipod software mangles filenames, in which case you won't have the original tracknumbers anymore.