Ebay seems to be loaded with used turntables at the moment, so they're often going for $30 or $40 a pop (less shipping) for the decent vintage ones. Even quite a few with direct drive/linear tracking + a lot of cool features. Just thought I'd let the group know, if someone is looking for one. Try this link:

http://search-desc.ebay.com/search/search....=y&BasicSearch=

Edit -- I wish I had known this instead of blowing $100 on a sh*tty Denon DP26F... well maybe the company will RMA, it shouldn't be too late. Will see on Monday.

BTW, have a look at THIS turntable... what a beauty:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=1358742279

If you respect your Lp's you will stay away from this unit.
The weight of the needle on you Lp's tend to wear the Lp
That is why It can be played at angles
Kind of like when you used to use a cheap system and lay a coin on the cartridge so you record would not skip.

Well I wasn't gonna buy it anyway, but it looks like a fascinating turntable. Here's another link to info:

http://mark.kouts.home.mindspring.com/sl10.html

Edit -- as a "vinyl ripper" I don't respect my LP's much. For one thing, I'm into a rare "genre" of music (Moog synthesizers music, ~1968-1978) and have to take what I can get which is often in poor condition already. For another, only one recording to digital is needed... even if several are needed (for better quality), I won't be playing the record hundreds of times.

I've only recently (1 year) gotten into Digital Music, So i'm still a Lp freak Have over 8 thousand Lps. Some good, some not so good. Some day I plan to transfer them over to digital. I just don't have the hardware for it yet.
Guess I'll never get out of the mid 60's - early 70's.

Hey guys..

Yeah, I've mentioned at a hifi shop about the "linear" type of TT (my wife has one) and the guy went into a fit of "it will eat your records!! throw it away!!!".

I'm not completely sold on that they are as bad as he said.. but you need just a tiny force sideways to drive the cart.. (actually, cart is moved on a very short arm, that triggers a motor to move the whole arm/assy sideways)

Looking at the one we have (and I haven't brought back to life) I guess weaknesses would be: noise from the motor that drives the cart across the disk. Possible side force (like badly adjusted tracking) error, as it tracks the disk...

Super picky audio types go to huge measures to make sure the stylus is both matching the angle and attack, of the original disk cutter.. for least playback distortion, AND by tracking weight and some of the same angular adjustments, make sure the magnet/coil at the other end of the stylus is in the "sweet spot".. the best sounding/best balance position inside the cartridge.

With all that going on.. a system that requires a cart to be pulled sideways against a spring by the grooves it's tracking, sounds like it's got more challanges to working right than a regular table..

In a linear tracking turntable there should not be a sideways force on the cartridge because it is free to pivot back and forth a small amount. The motor only kicks in occasionally to keep the arm centered in its pivot range (and tangent to the grove).

While it’s quite a bit more complicated that a regular arm, there are at least three advantages that I can think of to a linear tracker. First, the arm can have very low mass because it’s so short. Second, the cartridge is always perfectly tangent to the groves (no tracking error). And third, they don’t require anti-skating force because the cartridge is always being pulled directly away from the arm pivot point by friction with the record.

The reason they may get a reputation as "record eaters" is that if the sensors that trigger the arm assembly motor fail, then the arm will reach the end of its pivot and start forcing the cartridge sideways until it starts skipping, which is obviously not LP friendly. I had a Sony linear tracking table that would do this when too much dust got into the LED interruption sensors.

The "party line" is that linear drive is supposed to be *easier* on records. I don't know why manufacturers would have been making that claim for probably 25 years now, and the truth would be exactly the opposite -- it just doesn't make any sense.

The following is from:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/factory/clearaudio/

"Peter Suchy wonders why in this millennium people still use pivoted tonearms. It is a well-known act that pivoted tonearms have distortion while linear tracking arms, such as the Sowther as used within the top-flight Clearaudio turntables, provides the lowest distortion and higher performance achievable."

From here:

http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Tonearm.html

"It is not a coincidence that the three tonearms in this highest class are all Linear Tracking. That is how the groove in records are cut after all."

It could be that it's the design where the tonearm is located in the cover rather than on the table (apparently common with Technics tables), and/or other poorly designed tonearms that's the cause of the rumors.

Edit -- Bryant, you beat me to it...

Edit2 -- I just won a direct-drive Kenwood table on Ebay (I won't get into the model number, looks like one of those "came with the rest of a high-end system" items) that has a linear tracking arm... guess I'll have a chance to see for myself. You can bet that if the motor isn't working right, the seller will hear from me about it ... the main selling point for me is, it shouldn't be necessary to do a lot of fancy cartridge aligning with linear tracking (installing a new cart. seems to be what drives everybody crazy).

That is unusual... I'm just the opposite. Having been into digital music a long time (at least since 1985), I'm just now getting back into analog again... nor do I have the hardware or the $$ to do much justice to vinyl in terms of sound quality, but it's a lot of fun anyway.

Hey, as i see it there's no overwhelming reason to. It's well known that analog can be better in some respects than digital... at least you aren't feeding the greedy companies making up the RIAA. And it seems to me you lose a lot of the fun when you can't 'tweak' audio equipment (but that's a matter of opinion).

Cheers...

What is your reason for wanting a "Direct Drive" turntable? Whilst I know there are very bad belt drive turntables and good Direct Drive turntables, it's usually the opposite.

Certainly belt drive is preferred on all "real" turntables in the UK (that I can think of).

On the subject of "real" turntables, you can get a real classic for a very low price if you keeping looking...

http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?M...query=Linn+LP12

They start at £1000 new, beyond £2000 for the best PSU and tone/arm combination. Used? About £400 - sometimes less! They do take some setting up though. And a better turntable will usually find more clicks on used records than a cheaper deck.

Sorry that I can only tell you about UK hi-fi - it's probably not much use since you are not in the UK!


Cheers,
David.

True.. but in "real" implemntations, there has to be a tiny amount of spring action.. and there is on the one we have. Very low.. but, so's the anti-skating force on a regular arm.. and purists can hear the emphasis on one channel or the other if there's not the right amount/direction of anti-skating force... I wonder how the sound of the motor is kept out of the cartridge.. the whole assembly makes a great microphone, especially for low freq vibrations.. do you hear "rumble" every few seconds as the motor comes on?



I see a disadvantage, at least with the one we have, there is no way to do ANY of the standard cartridge adjustments.. including tracking weight.. Unless this little 3" arm is PERFECTLY made and hung in there.. for the ONE cartridge (that hopefully dosen't go out of production) it might be made for.. how do you get the setup right?

Now on that nice $12,000 turntable that fewtch linked us to... it probably has a few more features..

The whole setup and tuning concept, that you need to have the needle positioned just right, in the groove, and the moving parts (magnet or coil) positioned by just the right weight, for the best reproduction.. and that where these points are will vary from cartrige to cartrige (even in the same model line) seems to argue for being able to have a lot of settings..

But, then again, all of us talking are probably not quite full, rabid Audiophiles..



Yeah.. I was worrying about that.. it could do some serious damage if the motor took off.. I really don't know how bad they can be.. this one guy thought they were spawn of satan.. I also noticed that after appearing in the 70's-80's, they faded back into obscurity.. Too expensive for you average consumer level product, or not a great design? I notice a lot of high end stuff just uses arms as well..

Speed control and stability (many direct drive turntables are more accurate and stable speed-wise, I think -- i.e. less wow & flutter). Also, belts can and do start to slip sometimes, the torque can be low depending on design, and in a "vintage" turntable (like the one I bought) it very well could need replacing and be difficult or impossible to find.

Good point about finding more clicks, too -- 99% of my usage is for digital recording, the other 1% is for the fun of owning a turntable & spinning vinyl. "Audiophile" I'm not -- to be honest, I think an quality CD player is the best bet for "audiophile" grade sound, unless you want to spend the price of a good new automobile on equipment.

Just guessing at this point...but either the motor would be a VERY low powered one (it doesn't take much to move a light tonearm horizontally)... or the mechanism is controlled indirectly via the turntable platter motion (my guess is the latter).

The Sony that I had used light interruption sensors to detect when a "slew" was required, so there wasn't any sideways force. But I know that not all are designed that way; in fact I know of one LT arm that is purely mechanical (which seems like a nightmare to me but was highly regarded by audiophiles).

I have no idea how the noise was kept out on the Sony. The arm was on a lead screw and you could hear the motor operating if you stood next to the turntable, but I never heard it through the speakers (and I wasn't known for being timid with the volume control).

Well, the Sony had a P-mount cartridge so everything was supposed to be adjusted correctly by default. I suspect that audiophile linear tracking arms have as many adjustments as their standard counterparts (except for anti-skating, of course).

I was going to mention this too, but decided against it. There was a lot of debate in the 70's and 80's about which was better: direct drive or belt drive. Direct drive generally measured better (especially with weighted noise measurements because the rumble was so low in frequency) but belt drive were still more highly regarded by hardcore audiophiles (Linn was one of the big belt drive cheerleaders). When the CD came out the direct drive fans loved them and abandoned their turntables while the belt drive fans (who know not from measurments) were the ones that hated the way CDs sounded and stuck to their turntables.

If I was going to buy a vintage turntable now for <$100, I would go for one of the better Japanese direct drive tables and maybe even go for a P-mount design to keep everything simple (which is also not a real "audiophile" choice).

But, you're right, most (if not all) of the fine turntables being made today are belt drive, including my beloved Linn...

Precisely what I ended up with, except I can't find any info about the Kenwood KD-67F whatsoever... except as advertised by the seller: Direct drive, linear tracking (obvious from the picture), P-mount cartridge, and owner's manual included (which to me is a plus as well). And no plastic cover, which I would just remove anyway.

We'll see when it gets here, how well it operates & sounds... negative feedback will be left (and Ebay complaint filed) for false descriptions. If everything works right, will aim to get a decent preamp next.