hi, thinking about getting one of these, mostly cuz of the lcd remote. but i've heard it doesnt display the artist? is this display from tags or filenames? playlist names? if your tunes are 'folderized' does it recognize these folders? is there any workaround for this artist vs. remote thing? (renaming/tagging/folderizing/playlists?)

also, i hear there is a problem with long filenames, or is it long tags also?

the random is funky? i guess you could load a randomized playlist?

mostly, i'll be listening to random, but how hard is it to find artists, albums and playlists? i'm guessing changing from Abba to ZZtop is going to be a hassle?

important- are there issues with differnt flavors of cbr vbr abr js ss and high and low bitrates?

does it remember where you are in the song/playlist/filelist if you turn it off? does it remember your settings if you turn it off?

i dont see a VU for the recording feature, is there at least a clip indicator?

thanks for your time,

I don't have this specific player, but I do know iRivers pretty well, so here's what I can offer:

You're not going to run into any playback issues, with mp3s at least. ABR, VBR, CBR, it's all good. They've been known to be a bit spotty in ogg implementation, only supporting certain ranges of bitrates because of hardware limitations. OGG decoders are more complex, apparently.

Navigation is up to you. You can browse your own, customized dirtree, or use the "database" system, which I assume pulls info from tags. I have heard that this contributes quite a bit to the player's startup time, and if you can lay everything out how you want to see it, it should be unnecessary.

I'm sure it displays tags, their SlimX line of CD players definately does, at least, and all their players are basically structured the same.

The rest of the questions I don't know much about, hopefully some other users can help.

ask the guys over on this unofficial iriver forum

http://misticriver.net/

I own this device (H120) and I'm quite happy with it.
Very good soundquality with the supplied ear-plugs.

Main unit display (playback):
[x] Folder (not scrolling)
[x] Artist (not scrolling)
[x] Song title (scrolling)

Remote display (playback)
[x] Folder (not scrolling)
[x] Song title (scrolling)

Among those infos you can also see the (remaining) time, battery status, the number of this song (all songs are numbered sequentially), Format (mp3,ogg,wma,wav), sampling rate, bitrate, equilizer/effect setting and a progress bar of the current playing song. (on both displays)

I'm using this naming sheme for albums, now:
%artist%/[%year%-]%album%/%trackno%-%tracktitle%
It eases file structure navigation and you get the album title displayed (folder).

Long filenames / browsing:
The player handles long filenames but there's a limitation in the database-mode. Usually you browse the file structure (default) or a list of playlists but you can also create the file "iRivNavi.iDB" in the root of the device's hard disc with a special tool. This allows browsing by artists, albums, genre and track title. However the file format of this database does not allow to store filenames longer than 52 characters (currently).
Anyway, if you have lots of music including lots of singles the usage of this database mode is rather painful because scrolling all artits takes very long. So I prefer browsing by file structure. No problem with long filnames here.

Playback modes:
The device allows multiple playback modes, different combinations of shuffle and repeat for the current directory, a playlist, all files... however, the current firmware uses a relativly simple method for seeding the random number generator.
According to some comments on the iRiver user boards it is believed that the seed is the number of the current playing title. So, it's not unlikely that a specific order can be reproduced easily. iRiver promised a firmware upgrade fixing this issue and scheduled it for May.

File support / seeking (scanning):
It plays all files I have fine. These include CBR and VBR mp3 files and Ogg Vorbis files from -q2 to -q6 (1.0.1 encoder & aoTuV beta 2). I don't know of any bitrate limitation. By the time writing this, i remembered that seeking of ONE SPECIFIC VBR mp3 file didn't work properly. Maybe because of a missing VBR-Header-Tag or something, I haven't checked it yet. Anyhow, seeking usually works at selectable "scan speeds" (1X, 2X, 4X). If the 4X mode is still to slow for you you can enable the "study mode" and skip a user definable amount of minutes and seconds.

Playback resuming:
It supports resuming of the playback when it is switched off and on again. It works for playlists, too. Cool feature for audio books because playback starts at the exact position.

Recording:
I haven't yet played much with this feature, but AFAIK you can toggle the automatic gain control on/off and monitor the volume by enabling the monitor feature and check for yourself via earphones.

Conclusions:
Neither the iPod nor the iRiver H120 is a perfect player. They both have some pros and cons. 3 friends of mine own an iPod and I've played with it, too. For me iRiver's H120 is the better choice.
CONs: Navigation via database mode isn't that useful to me. Suboptimal shuffle mode.
PROs: Remote control has a display. You can control everything with the remote. Browsing by file structure is sufficient for me and allows a personal "layout" of your files. I don't have to use a special software application to transfer my songs (like iTunes), I can directly copy them via the USB mass storage protocol which is nativly supported by most OSes and it supports Ogg Vorbis (and WMA).
The CONs are pure firmware issues IMHO and maybe fixed in upcomming versions. At least the shuffle thing is taken care of by iRiver among stuff like gapless playback and "on-the-fly playlists" (whatever that's supposed to mean).

Firmware release schedule accorging to www.iriver.com:
May: on-the-fly file deletion and a real shuffle mode
June: on-the-fly playlist and gapless playback


bye,
Sebastian

edit: wording

I was looking for similar info myself, i just cant decide between this and a rio karma!

anyway heres a bit more info

From there general FAQ

http://www.iriveramerica.com/support/H100_FAQ.aspx

Q. How does the H100 sort files?
A. By default, the H100 will sort files and folders numerically or alphabetically based on a folder's title or file's iD3 tag. Once the H100 has been updated using the Database function, the Player will be able to dynamically sort files by Artist / Album / Genre / Title / File-Folder.

hmm does a track number id3tag override alphabetical song title sorting? hmm..

Also found this problem which put me off a bit

http://misticriver.net/index.php?name=PNph...b729834f3cae934

I wouldn't count on it. It's wise to name your files like i proposed.
like "Prodigy\1997-The Fat Of The Land\04-Funky Shit.ogg" for example.

bye,
Sebi

Now that gapless playback seems to be possible with this device, I'll most likely buy one.

The spec. sheet says it reads ID3 tags and Winamp playlists.

Does the iHP 120 read Vorbis Comments?

Does it take advantage of and read the #EXTINF in playlists?

I apologize for veering off-topic, but your statement has peaked my interest. Are they actual ear-plugs that fit into the ear canal like the Etys, or are they simply ear-buds that sit at the opening of the ear canal? If they are, indeed, ear-plugs, I am definitely interested.

Later.

They are very simple ear-buds. I replaced mine with MX-500s.

If gapless playback is an important feature you expect from a player. You should wait until the firmware is released before buying the device. Just in case.

Yes, it reads Vorbis comment tags.

As for the #EXTINF stuff: No.
It's just a WinAMP tag and depends on the input plugin settings.
It's not always %artist% - %title%

bye,
Sebastian

Gapless playback? With MP3, Vorbis, or both? Do you have a link to that information on the iRiver site? I'm going there to see if I can find it now.

Firmware for Gapless comes out in June apparantly. Wait till then and I'll let you know if it works with mp3. IMHO it probably won't be perfectly gapless with mp3 but will be for Vorbis.

PS. iHP-120 is the best gadget I have bought in a long time!!

Okay, thank you.

Later.

ok, thanks all, specially sebastian for the detailed info, and screaming hell for the link to that forum, i hadnt found them yet.

For what it's worth, I have the iPod, iPod Mini, NJB3 and Minidisc. I have a variety of MP3/CD players as well. I've owned the Zen and of course the iHP-120. The iHP was at the same time the player which showed the most promise but disappointed most severely. It's an excellent gadget: It's just not a very good recorder or player.


The MX400 as shipped with the iRiver is a canny gesture. It does make the unit sound considerably more resolved than some of the POS phones that other players are bundled with. However ultimately these are $10 phones and bringing much better headgear into the equation dulls that advantage. If anything I found the iRiver to have a bloated and dull sound.


I find iTunes actually useful. It's a very good tool for allowing me to listen to music in a variety of ways, and also for managing a very large library of music. I find a lot of comments against it made by propellerheads (who probably have 100 CD's to their name, if that) irrelevant.


Perhaps I'm being harsh against it because I bought it based on all the positive comments which were made by iHP owners... the unit was intended to replace both the NJB3 and the iPod. However owning, not trying, the NJB3 / iHP / iPod simultaneously did bring to light the inadequacies of the iHP for recording AND playback.


To add to what Sebastian answered:
The H120 has no clipping indicator, and no VU meters.

I don't share your feelings about the sound being dissapointing, without the equalizing nonsense mine sounds as good as any portable I've heard, including the 2g ipod i still own and the 3g i returned. If you work out or don't like walking around a city worrying about advertising you're holding something worth 400 bucks that's instantly fenceable, the remote is a big deal. As is the battery life when your 40 gigs of music can't always make it through a transatlantic flight or a week's worth of morning commutes. I've used the radio enough to miss it on the ipod, and it's a good portable hard drive in a pinch.

They're under 300 dollars now, at least on newegg, mine's taken a couple of drops onto concrete without incident. I'm not sure I'd ever pay apple's asking price now that the ipod isn't alone in the hard-drive game, especially with the experience with a bum 3g headphone amp I had(my 2g is still going strong, in fairness).

I don't think any portable will sound good with 580/600/650's, but my iriver drives my e3's, px100s and rs-1s with the stock grado adaptor admirably. the latter seems a bit better if you don't use the remote and plug it in directly to the unit.

I'm a creature of habit in how i tag and organize things, since lots of it is being transcoded from flac these days so the fact it doesn't limit my ability to do this is a bonus for me. if you'd rather have one, generally adequate, way to do things, you'll like the ipod better since it makes your decisions for you.

basically, there's nothing to worry about with the sound---it's not an ipod, but it's under 300 dollars and has the remote, radio, and about double the battery life that apple can't sell you for 500. if you like itunes, the software will seem crude. if you like eac, it's as easy as dragging and dropping the albums you've extracted, albeit with a little less-hand-holding and tweaking required than itunes. i don't know much about the karma, but the ipod and ihp are both decent products that'll probably make it hard to imagine life before carrying 20-40gigs of music with you all the time-james

Last year the 3G was a little "bum" as you say. I too noticed this and returned it. Now? Not really. With a decent pair of phones for example (ER-4S, E5, etc) it's noticebly cleaner than even the iHP's optical out .

And just how did you compare an analogue signal with a digital one?

I have the 140. I would not trade it for any other player.

What I would improve:

1. The jog dial.
2. More Volume (because I want it louder)
3. Gapless

That's it.

4. Recording level meter

I corrected that for you .
The volume is loud enough, really.
IMHO the iHP is by far the most flexible portable music player you can get at the moment. An iPod may be sexier, but why should a device I'm going to carry in my pocket most of the time be uber-sexy?

ipod aint sexy, it looks like a bar of soap!

I have the Audio-Technica ATH-D1000 which I was using with the iHP-120. Note where it's plugged in.



I 'controlled' the output with a variety of portable CD players. The iHP sounded unaccountably worse than some of my PCDP's with the same source data.

Analog output comparison between iPod and iHP-120 (Line Outs):
Ray Samuels XP-7 amp + Audio-Technica ATH-W2002

Stax SR-007 Omega II + Stax SRM-007t
iPod won on each occasion.


I'd suggest going with the iRiver if the extra features are worth it to you. If you're a jobbing musician, etc the recording facilities although not ideal may come in handy. If you're a 'damn the quality, check out them gadgets' geek, similarly this is the most gadgety player in existence. If sound is of the essence however and you're prepared to make a heavy investment in phones to suit, then the iPod is what I'd recommend. It's also smaller but only by a bit and a hell of a lot easier to use.

Apple was decent about taking it back and I was lucky I used amex since moving 500 dollars around on credit cards can turn in to 20 dollar fees sometimes. i know the first model of cars, motherboards, etc tend to be buggier, but part of the thing's selling point and justification for costing more than comprably sized stuff is it's supposed to work well-you expect more when you buy stuff like a MB S/E-class versus a kia in build quality, a pricing premium like apple has in a unit it already got right before should mean the headphone jacks shouldn't get junky since they aren't something apple had to do much innovation with.

that issue, apple's problems with the mpeg-4 standard and failure to do much about it, and battery issues convinced me not to buy another one of their products on blind faith. \

The ipod headphone jack WAS good, i don't know if it was fixed, in fairness. IF you get a flawless one and use a headphone amp costing more than the ipod through 650's you may indeed notice a difference if you set out looking for one. The genius of these things is that you can take them places---if one has stuff like the rey samuels, you've probably got a better source to listen to around the house----a cd player has no transparency issues, no batteries, and a full-sized jack for an amp, so does a decent soundcard and foobar's better to use if you're sitting at your desk as it doesn't have wires and you're already using your mouse.

fundamentally, i liked the 600s i sold along with amp more than the rs-1s, but whatever i gave up was worth actually being able to use headphones i own with a portable.
it struck me as totally absurd to carry around 1200 dollars in amps, player and headphones all the time-not why i'd buy a portable. there are headphones comprable to the higher-impedance favorites that you can actually take places. I'd love my laptop to perform at the same level as my tower, but it's an acceptable tradeoff for portability, just as i'm ok if if i don't feel my iriver is as good as a traditional source if i was putting it through expensive amplifiers and phones. i've actually never noticed any flaws.

if you need a perfect source and can hear differences due to equipment or deliberatley looking for them, lossy files on an mp3 player have the potential to drive you nuts, with the codec being much more likely a culprit than the jack.

Not exactly portable now, is it?

I've always believed in bringing a tactical nuke to a gunfight



As for portable phones, my comparison did involve some more realistic gear... Shure E5 and Etymotic ER-4S. Once again the iPod took it.

Check out the numerous problems I've had with my Karma:
http://pcclub.com/forum/messageview.cfm?ca...&threadid=12017

Also, visit www.riovolution.com forums and notice how many people have HDD and scroll wheel problems. Did I mention the 90 day warranty?

Due to my job's requirements I have to take several trans-Pacific flights per month. Using my H120 with ogg -q8 gets me about 12 hours of non-stop music. Enough to take you from Detroit to Japan.

Even with the few firmware issues (slated to be fixed soon) the player does for me what the ipod could never do.

imho

rs

Also at Riovolution, you'll notice that many more people are quite happy with their Karmas. Bottom line is that both the iRiver and the Karma are quality DAPs, and which one is "best" really comes down to personal preference as to what features are most important.

As for iRiver research, I second the misticriver.net recommendation. Good group of people over there that I'm sure would be able to answer any lingering iRiver questions you might have. Best of luck.

Pros:
Solid, durable, well designed all-metal body
Large, clear side-lit display
Excellent remote
Long battery life
Optical in/out(!)
OGG!
usb-storage class!

Cons:
No gapless playback
No FLAC
Recording length limitations (~76min max per recording)
Obtuse, clumsy user interface
No jog dial / scroll wheel

The pros outweigh the cons for me, and at least the first 4 cons can hopefully be fixed with firmware updates in the future.

FWIW, a Finnish computer magazine "MikroBitti" reviewed some portable HD-based players. The iRiver H120 won (the second and third were the iPod and the iAudio M3, IIRC - I don't have the magazine handy).

The interesting part was that where they measured the frequency response of the players. The iRiver H120 had a totally flat frequency response, and the 3G iPod was measured one of the worst in terms of sound quality.

same here in Germany!

I know 3 top-rated computer magazines and one HiFi magazine which gave the iRiver iHP-120 the crown and NOT the iPOD. the main reason was the superb frequency response of the iRiver compared to the iPOD.

-hd

I also came across several reviews that praised the sound quality of the iRiver iHP-120 - especially its line-in encoding features. Check out this link.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/iriver2_e.html

You may also want to take a look at the newer H300 series - it's essentially the same player with a colour screen. The joystick is also replaced with a set of buttons. I just bought 1 last week and am still fiddling with it. The interface is easy to use, is solid, and has line-in and line out, USB 2.0.

It's not essentially the same player. The H300 series don't have optical inputs or outputs, and no internal headphone either, I guess? It's also bigger and heavier. However, image viewing and USB on-the-go support may be nice if you do a lot of digital photographing.

rickshaw > Using my H120 with ogg -q8 gets me ...

Any -q8? Have you run into any ogg that wouldn't play (or play correctly)? Have you tried a -q10 just to test? Still trying to decide between Karma/Nueros/and now...iHP.

xen-uno

edit: I used to encode to -q 8 but now that I do EAC>flac and store on DVD, I've dropped ogg encodes down to -q 7.

The tested players were (in ranking order)

iRiver iHP-120
Apple iPod 20G
iAudio M3
Philips HDD120
Creative Zen Xtra 60G
Archos Gmini 220

They were ranked by (in descending order of importance)

Sound quality (objective and subjective)
Usability
Battery life (measured, continuous shuffle)
Size and bulk
Transfer speed
Capacity
Connections and accessories
Software
Headphones
Construction

finally ! - some response from iRiver regarding some feature requests.

iRiver firmware schedule update

perhaps they'll stick to the release date this time.
we'll see...

bye,
Sebi

That's a nice list of updates. I'll be happy when they release the firmware update. But currently I am very happy with my H120.

Very happy with my 140 as well. Gapless would make it just about perfect.

Gapless was on the list if I read it right. Dream Theater gapless on my portable would be just awesome, but now I put up with the tiny gaps. I debated between this and a Rio Karma because Vorbis support was a must but I'm glad I chose my 120.

Love mine.

I did a lot of research before hand and it was obviously the best. All reviews I've read say iRiver sound quality slightly better than iPods. Never worse. All you have to do is ask to listen before you purchase; there's no way they can say no if you're spending that much money; a lot of stores will have both iPod and iHP, just find one, it's what I did.

I listen to mainly techno and trance on the vbass setting and it's uber. Very nice. The guy who said he needed more volume must be deaf. Max sound is 40. I use about 8 in a quiet room, 15, when riding, 20 for awesome "turn it up" song; any louder and I'd do damage to my hearing.

Pros
+16hr battery life means I only recharge about once a week. I love not having to buy batteries anymore. It's just an amazing independent little player
+size and weight
+nice black leather case with belt clip comes with it.
+Sound quality
+In built radio
+easy transfer of songs - just plug it in and windows automatically detects as harddrive, drag and drop. Basically it doubles as a portable HDD. I've never used the database, wonder what it's like.
+easy recharge, just plug in cord, green light comes on and you're recharging. Leave the recharge/power cable in if you don't want to use up the battery for home use
+optical out - I don't need to buy a stereo, I just plug the optical out into my speakers.
+ recording is easy and mic is built-in - they crammed a lot of stuff into this little thing.
+ allen-key screws in clear view for easy battery upgrade - someones swapped in a 2200mAh and is now getting 28hrs battery life .
+ reminds me of Darth Vader: refer to this thread "The real reason the iHP is better than the iPod..."

cons
- don't like navigation
- blind navigation not intuitive. They could really improve navigation buttons a lot.
- fastforward songs too slow. Just fine for normal length songs, but hr long mixes it's a pain. Should be able to ff to specific time in song
- no gapless
- Size of text on screen too big - should be able to reduce text to what ever you like. I don't like that it only fits 17 characters, and when there's more than that in a heading scrolls across slowly.

The bottom line is the pros are all the right pros; the cons I can live with. Did I mention I love it

I can't speak with much authority on the iHP-120, but I do have a 3G ipod and an iRiver SlimX.

From my own tests, the SlimX does have better audio output--both louder and more accurate, which I believe are both intertwined. The ipod's amp is actually quite good, but it starts showing distortion at about 75% volume or so, which is where I put it, whereas I usually listen to the SlimX at around 55%. No, I haven't properly ABX'd them or measured frequency response, but I did subject them to my normal test whenever I enter a new editing room or studio: a good healthy listen of The Fragile, just about the most sonically detailed digitally recorded album I know of. My reference at home is a pair of Alesis M1's, so I have a pretty good idea of what all the details are supposed to sound like. iPod skimps a bit more on the very low lows and seems a tad less detailed in the midrange.

But it must be noted that the ipod's physical interface is, in the most literal sense allowable, a dream, and that it has an amazing "play me!" feel, as contrasted to the iRiver's "fiddle with me!" This may sound like a stupid thing to consider, but think of how much time you're going to spend interacting with the interface to whatever player you buy. "Fiddle" versus "play" is an important consideration--as is the Darth Vader vs. Luke Skywaker factor. I personally went with the ipod's "play!" feeling and I love the scroll wheel on it, it's intuitive and responsive. Similarly, the navigation on the ipod is much simplier and easier than the SlimX, and I really like how it prefers my ID3 info over the file names.

The computer interface isn't too bad; I completely ditched iTunes and use foo_pod exclusively, which can automatically transcode all of my FLAC or OGG or MPC files before sending them to the ipod (if any of you foo_pod people are reading this, you rock!). I did, however, have a world of trouble trying to connect it to USB2, and settled on buying a $35 firewire card, in which it worked perfectly. This is supposedly not as much a problem with the 4G. Also, the ability of foo_pod to line up ReplayGain data with Soundcheck is, IMHO, one of the greatest features ever devised for music playback.

I do have to confess one thing: I got a brand new 3G 40gig ipod with dock, remote, & case at a fantastic price of $300. Compare that to the lowest current iHP-120 price of $270. If I had to do it now, with current prices, I'd probably buy the iHP-120. One thing to keep in mind are the accessories--a big factor in my buying the ipod was Contour Design's Showcase case for the ipod, which is wonderful, form-fitting and durable and accessable. I don't know what the iHP comes with, or what's available, but make sure you see the real costs of the accessories you might buy with it.

I know most people say battery life is a big concern, and I do too, but here's one accessory thing to keep in mind: for my flight this weekend I'll have my 3G iPod with it's paltry 8-hours-under-ideal-conditions internal battery, but I'll also have along the $30 belkin backup battery port (I was going to make one myself for about $5, but was too lazy) with eight AA 2100mAh NiMH batteries. Combined, that's about 30 hours of battery life under my normal use of constant shuffling of large files, and it really isn't that bulky or heavy. Does the iHP have that ability? I know the SlimX has a little AA addition.

I haven't dropped the iPod yet, but I dropped the SlimX a lot and it kept going.

So, FWIW, that's my experience. iRiver does produce quality products, but make sure you've looked for what you really want in a player. If you want radio, recording, and you think internal battery life is very important, by all means get the iRiver, it looks better than anything else out there on the market. For me, the iPod's wonderful interface cinched the deal, as I am routinely scrolling through over 200 artists.